Version 2.8 discussion

[Afforess]

Is it just me or does snail speed seem really slow? and i know snail is meant to be slow but techs are taking like 120 turns and i am the most advanced civ in 1000BC and i havent even got pottery. I do have Fishing, Agriculture, Animal Hunsbandry, Ritualism, WHeel, Trade. Some Civs rushed writing and i traded with them but am still really behind.

I am using the Affores Allinone Modmod
The Giant Earth Map that Zap Made for Rom
Snail
Revolutions on, Tech Diffusion on, Default RevDCM setings.

Or maybe the AI is better? Are you using one of my Beta's? It has AI improvements in it.

 

[Dharmaserf]

I have no intentions to overhaul the civic system anymore... it has been done already at least three times for RoM and that's enough for me.

Now, has anyone anything to say about those Transhuman era changes? After all v2.8 concentrates to Transhuman era and all the new major additions was made to that era.

I would love to help. Unfortunately, my games keep crashing around the renaissance. I just got another Civgamecoredll.dll error in a new game. I will try again without moving the field of view bar and see if that is the issue. Otherwise, I am not sure what the issue is. If I can't figure it out I will start a game in the industrial era and go from there. I am quite interested too in the transhuman era.

IDEAS:

I know you just want to get the new version out, zap, and don't have time to do massive changes. And note I really appreciate all the work you've put into ROM, I've played it for a couple years now and I have found each version to be better than the last. So perhaps these brainstorms are more for mod modding.

That said, one thing I thought of was to have a Starcraft-esque balance of forces between different visions of transhumanism. In SF we have many ideas and ROM transhuman civics reflect this. I thought it might be interesting to at some point have to make a choice between 3 transhuman specialized societies. In much sci-fi, dramatic weight is given to alternate and somewhat incommensurable or alternate technological visions of future humanity. Some of the visions, I think, can be summarized (excluding those that try to integrate all of the below):

AI Societies
-includes things like the Surrogates, Ghost in the shell, etc. i.e. conciousness mapping and downloading
-I forget the series, but I read one Space Opera where this idea was mapped with cornucopia machines that, with any base material (that could be broken down by the machine), could reproduce anything--including bodies and their consciousness. Immortality and multiple simultaneous bodies FTW. Another series I read had these machines without c'ness mapping. In essense, it created infinite resources. Perhaps that could be a victory condition
-Other books have sentient AI that inhibit specially constructed bodies. These AI were either once human and uploaded, growing into super-intelligences. Others have them as self-replicating neural algorithms. Most I've read combine the two.

Genetic Modification/Green
-Two series I have read inspired me to think about what kind of environmentally friendly transhuman or alien society might exist. Both involved Genetic mapping/terraforming.
-In these there was often a balance between futuretech (like nanotech) and genetech.
-I would thinking it be interesting to move from the clone angle into this.

Nanotech
-a total mainstay. I feel like most transhuman stories involve nanotech.
-I think every society should have basic nanotech, but perhaps they each take their own spin on advanced versions. One example was that at the micro-level synthetic nanotech was a combination of organic and synthetic compnents.

Psychic/Neuro-physical
-This I don't see explored that much, I think because it's too magical, or perhaps it fits within AI more than anything, but I think it would be interesting to see it play out in game as a possible future.

Anyway, these are just preliminary ideas. My thoughts are that perhaps hashing out three good options could make for interesting gameplay. Halfway through the transhuman era one has to make choices about which direction to go, which cuts off other choices. Then, one could balance these so they have unique buildings and units that each are counter-measures to each other. SO depending who you were at war with, or not, you could choose to produce particular kinds of units or biuldings. Or depending on which kind of victory you are going for. Just a thought.

Some examples off the top of my head:
-a Green unit that can create terrain by expending unit. Perhaps advanced forms could do this across civ boundaries.
-A counter-measure could be to have an AI or nano-tech unit or spy promotion that automatically engaged these kinds of semi-sentient or sentient "workers"
-IT might be interesting to have an era where it is a two-fold battle between military units and "worker" units. You send your Nanotech disruptors into my civ (that conventional units cannot engage) to dismantle units and I set up AI Guardians that can detect and thwart them with particular electro-magnetically encoded algorithms. Or my genetically modified populance take treatments to be immune from your AI based neural-psychological attacks.
-Or say everyone is peaceful... Who will reach scientific victory first: Civ A, who is terraforming their vast territory and mapping the deep ecology of all those forests into a large-scale organic neural net; Civ B, who is pushing hard on physics to construct FTL travel to get to Alpha Centuri; Civ C who is an AI society that is rapidly expanding their information tech to limits beyond human understanding, and when reaching that threshold can integrate every other civ into their net; Civ D, who are attempting to integrate many different advances into making self-sustaining cornucopia machines; or civ E who has tapped into the relationship between physical reality and psychic states and are reaching the horizon where reality can be shaped at will.

Anyway, these are just things I've been thinking about since earlier versions of ROM 2.5 and later. I figured I might as well get them out and see what people think.

 

[zappara]

I just read the Better AI 0.81 update notes and the following fixes are indeed great:

Bugfix
- Fixed rare issue (introduced) with assault transports causing endless turns
- Fixed bug (introduced) causing assault transports to oscillate in and out of cities under certain circumstances
- Fixed bug causing AI to build only half as many workers as it wanted, then build too many under rare circumstances

I hope this solves finally the 'waiting for...' bug that has been occurring with RoM 2.7 versions ie. now I got one more reason to wait for next RevDCM version and merge it to RoM 2.8.

 

[NBAfan]

Zappara, I am playing 2.71 with Vincentz's, Afforess' mods and with os79's unoffical 2.8 modmod. I must say that with the 2.8 changes the AI is a LOT better on Monarch.

 

[vincentz]

I just read the Better AI 0.81 update notes and the following fixes are indeed great:


I hope this solves finally the 'waiting for...' bug that has been occurring with RoM 2.7 versions ie. now I got one more reason to wait for next RevDCM version and merge it to RoM 2.8.

Sure sounds like it

 

[Arkatakor]

One thing I'd like to see change is some of the resource requirements for units. Alot of units could have their resource requirement removed and instead increase the build time while making a build bonuses for some resources. Kinda like spearmen have right now.

This gives me an idea for observatories. I got ticked off when I was unable to build anything glass-related just because I did not have the super rare resource that is stone.

So the suggestion is, instead of making glass related buildings COMPLETELY unavailable for civs that don't have stone, make them cost double (even triple if necessary) the amount of time to construct for the civs that dont have that resource.

 

[Bezhukov]

I have no intentions to overhaul the civic system anymore... it has been done already at least three times for RoM and that's enough for me.

Now, has anyone anything to say about those Transhuman era changes? After all v2.8 concentrates to Transhuman era and all the new major additions was made to that era.

Those changes are moot until the AI learns how to survive past the industrial age, let alone thrive.

I think the changes would be very interesting were there anyone around to play against at that point.

 

[Bezhukov]

Communism is not being looked at here for the basically economic, and not political, creature that Marx invisioned.

There are valid arguments for different levels of state involvement in economies, but that's not what Communism is/was even in Marx's "vision". The only place that Marx is still taken seriously is in the Western academy or among charlatans in the developing world looking to take advantage of their ignorance. Letting Communism (or Fascism!) be viable civic options is analogous to allowing Phrenology to boost science or Astrology culture, or having Creationism be a religion.

Nietzsche, Human, All Too Human, # 473:

Spoiler :

473

Socialism with regards to its means.— Socialism is the visionary younger brother of an almost decrepit despotism, whose heir it wants to be; thus its efforts are reactionary in the deepest sense. For it desires an abundance of executive power, as only despotism has ever had; indeed, it outdoes everything in the past by striving for the downright destruction of the individual, who it sees as an unauthorized luxury of nature, and who it intends to improve into a useful organ of the community. It crops up in the vicinity of all excessive displays of power because of its relation to it, like the typical old socialist Plato, at the court of the Sicilian tyrant [In 388 B.C. Plato visited the court of the Sicilian tyrant Dionysius the Elder in Syracuse, where he returned in 367 and 361 B.C., hoping to realize his political ideals there.]; it desires (and in certain circumstances, furthers) the Caesarean power state of this century, because, as we said, it would like to be its heir. But even this inheritance would not suffice for its purposes, it needs the most submissive subjugation of all citizens to the absolute state, the like of which has never existed; and since it cannot even count any longer on the old religious piety towards the state, having rather always to work automatically to eliminate piety—because it works on the elimination of all existing states—, it can only hope to exist here and there for short periods of time by means of the most extreme terrorism. Therefore, it secretly prepares for reigns of terror, and drives the word "justice" like a nail into the heads of the half-educated masses, to rob them completely of their reason (after this reason has already suffered a great deal from its half-education), and to create in them a good conscience for the evil game that they are to play.— Socialism can serve as a rather brutal and forceful way to teach the danger of all accumulations of state power, and to that extent instill one with distrust of the state itself. When its harsh voice chimes in with the battle cry [Feldgeschrei] "as much state as possible," it will at first make the cry noisier than ever; but soon the opposite cry will be heard with strength the greater: "as little state as possible."

 

[munky]

perhaps Anarchy would be a new civic? imagine the fun of designing that one...

 

[Afforess]

perhaps Anarchy would be a new civic? imagine the fun of designing that one...

Anarchy already is in the game, it is the in between time when switching civics. Plus, the whole point of Civ is to run an Empire, not let it go to pieces.

 

[munky]

Anarchy already is in the game, it is the in between time when switching civics. Plus, the whole point of Civ is to run an Empire, not let it go to pieces.

no i meant Anarchy as a form of non-government government, perhaps better worded as a complete libertarian system -- independent of any all governmental authority.

and come on Afforess you know i know you know that i know that there is anarchy between civic choices... so you are saying all things would go to pieces in an Anarchy? So i cant vote for Lord of the Flies as my favorite civic choice?

 

[Afforess]

Can we take this discussion to the other thread on civics, on this forum? Zap already vetoed all civic changes.

 

[Dave_Oz]

This gives me an idea for observatories. I got ticked off when I was unable to build anything glass-related just because I did not have the super rare resource that is stone.

So the suggestion is, instead of making glass related buildings COMPLETELY unavailable for civs that don't have stone, make them cost double (even triple if necessary) the amount of time to construct for the civs that dont have that resource.

Yes i agree with both of you ! In one game i had a whole continent, but didnt have any Sulphur, so no gunpowder units.

 

[zappara]

Last night I did few "minor" changes to RoM's python files and I basically removed CvEventManager as BUG team's request is to leave that file to unmodified state and then I made RoMEventManager which now holds all the RoM specific stuff - basically this changes nothing, just how the mod executes some python events. I think it was well spent couple hours as I learnt bit more about python programming

The other new addition that I made was a new Great Wonder for Transhuman era - this new wonder defuses all nuclear weapons from game...

 

[aender]

The other new addition that I made was a new Great Wonder for Transhuman era - this new wonder defuses all nuclear weapons from game...

thats cool it would of been nice in one game where 2 turns before i completed the spaceship i was nuked back to stone age......but i still think diplo voting should be possible w/o the diplo victory condition on

 

[generalstaff]

The other new addition that I made was a new Great Wonder for Transhuman era - this new wonder defuses all nuclear weapons from game...

You've been taking a lot of wonders from Civilization: Call to Power, haven't you?
Can't wait for the Gaia Controller (The one that removed all pollution in that game).

 

[Iceciro]

Can I get a wonder that stops Global Warming?
Or a game option?

 

[Crusis]

The glass thing is silly. You need sand and heat. There isn't anywhere on Earth that you can't get sand within the distances that are represented in Civ. Glass isn't made from stone, it's made from sand. So while I understand the need to connect buildings to certain resources, there should be a separate resource for glass. Sand. If you have a desert in your civ boundary, you should have it.

 

[Bezhukov]

Can we take this discussion to the other thread on civics, on this forum? Zap already vetoed all civic changes.

All overhauls. As for tweaks, I'd suggest a diplo penalty for (overpowered) Fascism, and a towns boost for (underpowered) liberalism. Any way to get towns to generate GPP's?

 

[DavidB1111]

I just don't think that Zap should have nuked Communism back to the stone age.

Anyhow, I'll post in the civic topic later.

A few things here though, to add to the debate, although I will not do much. Mostly so Affores doesn't beat me up.

NBAfan

There is no such thing as "real" Communism.

I don't quite understand this comment. By Real, I mean the True Communism that's nearly impossible to make due to human conditioning.

Crusis

-60% for communism is perfect, because it was a very imperfect system. Remember laughing about them standing in lines for toilet paper? That was real.

Sorry, that's not communism, that's bad government. True Communism also allows for no corruption, and no massive surges of prices. All prices will more than likely never go up or down.
This of course means a stock market is useless.

Afforess

The Only time Communism could ever work would be when we have perfect people. So, Communism should be moved into the Transhuman Era, IMO, as that would be the only time one could re-engineer people to never complain, never be greedy. Of course the downside is stagnation. If no one is greedy, no one innovates.

Thank you, finally someone who understands me! Also, don't know if Re-engineering is needed. That seems more like Eugenics.
And Eugenics make Fascism look fun.

How about reintroducing slavewhipping for fascism and communism. Both had labour camps with little or no respect for human lives.

Fascism yes, but Communism no.