Version 2.8 discussion

zappara · Sep 13, 2009

munky said:
btw the Huns exists in CivGold as Hunnia, for those like me wanting to see the Huns included as a primary civilization choice... wonder if that is a simple port over...

i cant play a CivGold cause its too simple... humbly appreciated effort, just more of a RoM guy but right now with the problems multiplayer, i have "gone into the woods" and not playing so much but i do look forward to the next RoM version and hopefully a RevDCM stability boost!

I've converted major part of CivGold's civs for RoM, they are in the Mega Civ pack but I don't think Huns were among the converted. CivGold 5 was released recently with even more civs and it would take some weeks to convert them all for RoM - there's quite a lot of changes that needs to be done before those civs work with RoM. First you'd need to change the xml files from BtS module format to WoC module format, then change leaderinfos to RoM settings (civics, religions, transhuman era music etc), change UU/UB settings to match RoM settings, make new modular sound xml files if the new civ has new sounds/music, change civ's starting civics and so on...

CivEikka said:
I think that it would be really nice if you could use apostolic palace to declare war on heathens in your own lands. (As you got some cities with your own state religion, and a heathen religion.) It would result in civil war but you could get rid of those "wrong" religions (if you can win, of course). Though there should be penalty with having many religions in city (if not secular/folklore).

Adding/Changing diplomatic wonders is difficult as most of the functions for them are hardcoded and there is not extra xml modifiers that could be used to create more diplomatic vote choices. So I doubt that I'll ever make any changes to those systems - I don't think any SDK modder has made any huge additions to diplomatic victory type.

munky · Sep 14, 2009

zappara said:
I've converted major part of CivGold's civs for RoM, they are in the Mega Civ pack but I don't think Huns were among the converted. CivGold 5 was released recently with even more civs and it would take some weeks to convert them all for RoM - there's quite a lot of changes that needs to be done before those civs work with RoM. First you'd need to change the xml files from BtS module format to WoC module format, then change leaderinfos to RoM settings (civics, religions, transhuman era music etc), change UU/UB settings to match RoM settings, make new modular sound xml files if the new civ has new sounds/music, change civ's starting civics and so on...

uh, yeah, um, uh, yeah, that xml module UU into WoC, uh, yeah, um, duh, i ah, um... this is why i am sending you the one thousand sheep and camels because i am incapable of such work my friend... maybe in Finland you would prefer Yaks and Reindeer?

Tabris · Sep 14, 2009

Gewar said:
I think that good system would be a little chance to disapear non-state religion from your cities (unles you have folklore or secular). So not supported religion could completely disapear after ages - today nobody (or nearly nobody) belives in Zeus or Thor.
It could also be possible to add more religions (in example from AArana's modmod) without unballancing gameplay.
Chance for disapearing non-state religions could depend on civics but also on kind of state religion (polytheist religions could be more tolerant as well as east philosophy (confucionism or something))

The reason those religions were nearly wiped out was active inquisition by the part of the christians and/or muslims. And we must remember that yet those religions still exist (altought being now minorities)

Afforess · Sep 14, 2009

Zappara,
DavidB1111 brought up an excellent point on the Main RoM modpack thread, that I though should be mentioned. Please note that I agree with him, on both points.

DavidB1111 said:
I'd like to know why Shaft mines have been confused with Strip Mines. Really, that does need to be changed a lot.

Yea,h Strip mines will cause Unhappiness. Shaft mines are basically the same as regular mines.

There should be no unhappiness penalty. I mean, there's no unhappiness penalty for having Nuclear missiles in your cities, so how does Shaft mines cause Unhappiness?

Also, do Nuclear Power Plants cause unhappiness? Because that would make a little more sense.

Perhaps a new mine called a strip mine, independent of the regular mine path could be added, which gives extra production at the cost of happiness and healthiness.

Afforess · Sep 14, 2009

Stupid internet connection refreshed while I was posting...

munky · Sep 14, 2009

three things from the "while i am playing" thoughts:

1). Military Airbases have a Commercial :commerce:

effect to them, i know this from when the Clinton administration here in the States was going through the process of closing military bases (per se more than just airbases) and the fact that so many local jobs were affiliated with the bases. wondering if it was prudent to add a :commerce:

to modern, and perhaps all ages, military bases. the Roman Empire was infamous for a huge group of support folks, from trade to prostitution. i for one think this should be considered... military is very much attached to commercial... :scan:

2). And this goes to Zappara's dreaded "my gawd do these people know how much work is involved in this shiite?" -- Open Borders is really two types: Military and Non-Military. the open borders for travel like British visiting Finland on holiday with appropriate travel visa and not for example Americans going to Cuba; versus military crossings of borders -- think of Turkey saying no to allowing USA troops to entering Iraq through its lands. Despite Turkey being an ally of USA this open borders did not allow troop movement. Hell Americans got all upidity when a small Mexican Army contingent went to New Orleans after Katrina. There should be two types of Open Borders, Military and Non-Military. I for one would love this concept because i look up and all of a sudden there are 15 armies going to long distant war and they are in the middle of my lands... it really "gets me" to think i am harboring such a large force. also historically, when the Crusaders (i think the first one) spent a night in Portugal on their way to the Holy Lands they left the towns they did the 'port of call' in complete disarray -- from crimes to pure pillaging. an army the size of 10 units or more would be extremely disruptive to the local populace. i cannot fathom this addition but certainly you all would agree there are two types of Open Borders. alas, this should be made into CIV 5 no doubt!

it also would allow traders and commerce units to enter a country and bar or block military units in the same way a caravel works...

3) there always has to be a 3... is there a RoM Lite in the works Zappara? I only ask this because in some ways i really only focus on the buildings, units, and civilizations as add-ons more so than any modmod concepts like Revolution or Barbarian or Bombardment (this may be a simplicity reality from too much pot smoking as a youth :crazyeye:

). this is a pure personal thing but i was thinking if RoM may be more stable in our multiplayer games if it was stripped down to purely the buildings, units, and civs.... this in no way is meant not to appreciate all the hard work composing the wonderfully complex modmod assimilations. and yes it is proper to think this hypocritical considering my suggestion for #2 when here in #3 i am asking for it not to be considered... :sad:

Gewar · Sep 15, 2009

Tabris said:
The reason those religions were nearly wiped out was active inquisition by the part of the christians and/or muslims. And we must remember that yet those religions still exist (altought being now minorities)

This is main, but not only reason. This is why I think the passive way should have LITTLE chance to work. Remember of chance to auto spread religins. This mechanics have small chance to wipe away whole religion without Inquisition support.
If state support one religion -> that religion is more atractive -> heathens join to main religion (becouse of for example trade profits).
Old religions still exist - but they are meaningless in globe scale.

New Idea - I think that could be good, there would be chance to auto spread religion to the city that already has one or more. For now only cities without any religions are affected by that. I realise that means a lot of work with numbers to balance it.

2ndimpression · Sep 15, 2009

Tabris said:
The reason those religions were nearly wiped out was active inquisition by the part of the christians and/or muslims. And we must remember that yet those religions still exist (altought being now minorities)

Thousands of religions have disappeared without an inquisition or being actively disbanded. Many of the smaller religions are lazily lumped together as 'Pagan' even though there was vast variation from area to area with different gods and different practices. Religions change and fade away for many different reasons and I think it would be good for there to be a chance for religion to fade away. It would be interesting if there could be a greater chance for them to fade when certain techs are reached; 'Theory of evolution' and similar...

zappara · Sep 15, 2009

munky said:
uh, yeah, um, uh, yeah, that xml module UU into WoC, uh, yeah, um, duh, i ah, um... this is why i am sending you the one thousand sheep and camels because i am incapable of such work my friend... maybe in Finland you would prefer Yaks and Reindeer?

Reindeers, yeah, those are worth something up north :lol:

Where I'm living, there's no reindeers, just cows and few fur and ostrich farms.

I'll be looking into Mega Civ pack once more after RoM 2.8 release and I could convert some new civs from CivGold 5.0 and release them as individual packages.

Current version notes for v2.8:

Spoiler :

Afforess · Sep 15, 2009

2). And this goes to Zappara's dreaded "my gawd do these people know how much work is involved in this shiite?" -- Open Borders is really two types: Military and Non-Military. the open borders for travel like British visiting Finland on holiday with appropriate travel visa and not for example Americans going to Cuba; versus military crossings of borders -- think of Turkey saying no to allowing USA troops to entering Iraq through its lands. Despite Turkey being an ally of USA this open borders did not allow troop movement. Hell Americans got all upidity when a small Mexican Army contingent went to New Orleans after Katrina. There should be two types of Open Borders, Military and Non-Military. I for one would love this concept because i look up and all of a sudden there are 15 armies going to long distant war and they are in the middle of my lands... it really "gets me" to think i am harboring such a large force. also historically, when the Crusaders (i think the first one) spent a night in Portugal on their way to the Holy Lands they left the towns they did the 'port of call' in complete disarray -- from crimes to pure pillaging. an army the size of 10 units or more would be extremely disruptive to the local populace. i cannot fathom this addition but certainly you all would agree there are two types of Open Borders. alas, this should be made into CIV 5 no doubt!

it also would allow traders and commerce units to enter a country and bar or block military units in the same way a caravel works...

This would require a basic overhaul of the way the game works, I'm afraid. Not that it's a bad idea, I personally agree with you, but as it stands, most diplomacy matters require SDK changes, and this one would be no small feat. Then, you'd need to rewrite tons of AI logic so that they would know how to use it, and you would have to group units into two new catagories, peace or military units...

Basically, it's not going to happen, unless secretly your a genius C++ coder.

generalstaff · Sep 15, 2009

munky said:
three things from the "while i am playing" thoughts:

1). Military Airbases have a Commercial effect to them, i know this from when the Clinton administration here in the States was going through the process of closing military bases (per se more than just airbases) and the fact that so many local jobs were affiliated with the bases. wondering if it was prudent to add a to modern, and perhaps all ages, military bases. the Roman Empire was infamous for a huge group of support folks, from trade to prostitution. i for one think this should be considered... military is very much attached to commercial...

If that was done, Garrisons, Military Airbases, the Pentagon, etc. would also have to have high maintenance since it is expensive to maintain a military base. These two aspects would completely change planning when it comes to city building and could possibly the Aggressive/Organized combination too powerful, not to mention AI problems. However, I do think military buildings should have a minor espionage bonus (i.e. Barracks: 2, Garrison: 4, Airbase: 4, Pentagon: 10, Kremlin: 10, Naval Academy: 6 (No Culture))...well that could work with the Brothel, since the poster I am quoting brought up prostitution.

CMKMStephens · Sep 15, 2009

An idea: To add an interesting mechanic to colonists/pioneers:

-When founding a new city using one of these, the (often huge) city maintenence is temporarily subsidized. Perhaps increase new city maintence to slightly higher levels than they are currently when this period ends.

This would represent the Boom and Bust habits of the colonial world from about 1700-1900. As in, you have a small window to make your new city profitable with something before it effectively crashes, becoming a drain on your economy.

Alternatively, rather than a mechanic make it an event/quest.
Event - Every city you found with a colonist/pioneer has a chance of generating a 'boom' or a 'bust', the former characterised by temporary subsidy of maintence and higher growth/production, the later with temporary decreased grwoth/production and higher maintence. Or rather than with founding a city, when you connect a new resource to your network, the closest city (under a certain population level) experience a boom.
Quest - You found a city and you have a very limited time to fulfil some requirements (like construction of certain buildings or something), leading to three option of boom, bust, or normality.

munky · Sep 15, 2009

zappara said:
Reindeers, yeah, those are worth something up north Where I'm living, there's no reindeers, just cows and few fur and ostrich farms.

I'll be looking into Mega Civ pack once more after RoM 2.8 release and I could convert some new civs from CivGold 5.0 and release them as individual packages.

Current version notes for v2.8:

wow, version 2.8 is in fact Civilization 5: Rise of Mankind. :goodjob:

(and on a side note i just bought the game Sins of a Solar Empire because for one reason it said "Includes Tech Tree Poster" which for me and being on topic for the future sci-fi RoM stuff was a sure fired way to suck me in, just opened it and will tape the damn thing to my wall here)

munky · Sep 15, 2009

Afforess said:
This would require a basic overhaul of the way the game works, I'm afraid. Not that it's a bad idea, I personally agree with you, but as it stands, most diplomacy matters require SDK changes, and this one would be no small feat. Then, you'd need to rewrite tons of AI logic so that they would know how to use it, and you would have to group units into two new catagories, peace or military units...

Basically, it's not going to happen, unless secretly your a genius C++ coder.

i knew taking Turbo Pascal in college was a big waste of time... C++ :cry:

DavidB1111 · Sep 16, 2009

Thank you Afforress for agreeing with me.

My only complaint, and I didn't see it on the 2.8 list of changes, is the money for upgrade is insane! Literally, to upgrade one unit into a rifleman it cost s 617 gold. Now, yes, it's an crossbow man, and it has to go through two unit types first, Arqubuster and Musketman, but still, that's a bit silly. I'm sorry.

Upgrading a group of riflemen to Infantry can cost upwards of 3000 gold. This is broken, any way you look at it. I"m sorry, but while I admit Vanilla was a little low, 400% of Vanilla is not a good increase. I would stick with maybe 200%. Any higher and you're going to collapse anyone's economy unless they give themsleves 50,000 gold from Great Merchant spam.

That's my only other complaint.

Arakhor · Sep 16, 2009

munky said:
i knew taking Turbo Pascal in college was a big waste of time... C++

Heh. I did a bit of Turbo Pascal when I was at college years ago. I haven't done anything with it, of course

zappara · Sep 17, 2009

DavidB1111 said:
Thank you Afforress for agreeing with me.

My only complaint, and I didn't see it on the 2.8 list of changes, is the money for upgrade is insane! Literally, to upgrade one unit into a rifleman it cost s 617 gold. Now, yes, it's an crossbow man, and it has to go through two unit types first, Arqubuster and Musketman, but still, that's a bit silly. I'm sorry.

Upgrading a group of riflemen to Infantry can cost upwards of 3000 gold. This is broken, any way you look at it. I"m sorry, but while I admit Vanilla was a little low, 400% of Vanilla is not a good increase. I would stick with maybe 200%. Any higher and you're going to collapse anyone's economy unless they give themsleves 50,000 gold from Great Merchant spam.

That's my only other complaint.

The basic upgrade cost is 20 gold but it's affected by various modifiers from all kinds of game settings, inflation probably changes it as well. I'd need to look through SDK code to see what all modifiers are part of the calculation.

munky · Sep 17, 2009

Arakhor said:
Heh. I did a bit of Turbo Pascal when I was at college years ago. I haven't done anything with it, of course

no, you did do something with it. you wrote that tic-tac-toe program with a minimal GUI. if only you could find that 5.25" disk it was on... priceless... :cool:

DavidB1111 · Sep 17, 2009

Well I noticed this in both your mod and Next War Advanced. Could it be more the other mod than yours? Like I said, it's in both, and it's fairly high in Next War Advanced.

Although, still, it shouldn't cost crate loads of money.

Afforess · Sep 17, 2009

DavidB1111 said:
Well I noticed this in both your mod and Next War Advanced. Could it be more the other mod than yours? Like I said, it's in both, and it's fairly high in Next War Advanced.

That's 'cause Next War Advanced uses RoM as a base. :lol:

Version 2.8 discussion

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