Very smart Barbarians?

[masaykh]

As i dont know if this a bug - i post here.

i started new game with 20 civs (large map) on snail speed, Monarch difficulty
with Barbarian World \ aggresive barbarians options ON
and many additinal options ON too (like corpotations, spionage, economy)

It Is SVN 4733 build.

42 turn i only got to Hard hammers precussion and Barbs got seredentary life style - HOW? all barb cities alredy have slingers \ atlatist.

i need to say that not barb AI have level of their tech on adequet level to mine.

please help me understand this situation

 

[Koshling]

As i dont know if this a bug - i post here.

i started new game with 20 civs (large map) on snail speed, Monarch difficulty
with Barbarian World \ aggresive barbarians options ON
and many additinal options ON too (like corpotations, spionage, economy)

It Is SVN 4733 build.

42 turn i only got to Hard hammers precussion and Barbs got seredentary life style - HOW? all barb cities alredy have slingers \ atlatist.

i need to say that not barb AI have level of their tech on adequet level to mine.

please help me understand this situation

Barbarians do not tech like normal civs (not sure of the exact mechanism, but it shouldn't be that fast). I suspect this is a (deliberate) part of 'Barbarian World', which is not an option I am overly familiar with. My guess would be that that option has not really been tuned sensibly for the prehistoric start in C2C. I wouldn't really recommend running any of the bard options away from their defaults quite honestly (the game gets tuned mostly with 'unusual' stuff at default values)

 

[masaykh]

i always playing with these options and with this revision for almost 3 weeks and this happened for first time

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd suspect some changes to civics (and possibly traits) for barbs. With Barb world, all those civs in the game spawned a barb city immediately. Normally, barbs have a severe restriction to how fast they research. But with 20 cities at game start, I'd say they'd research pretty fast in comparison to any given civ, even if they do still have a malus to research which is probably what has been severely reduced (or possibly even eliminated... not sure how far we went with this.) Basically, the Barbarians is a civ themselves and 20 starting cities is quite a few to amass research with.

 

[masaykh]

i understand then what happened.

Ok, so is there some way to make them like city-states in civ5 ? or simply can they be non-civ ?
something like: each city make research for themselfs only, they produce own units (identifible by home city) they hunt (barbs at present dont hunt at all). Also barbarians need to be reckless and agrresive - in game barbs doing very cleverly - like they dont attack tribal gurdian they instead destroy improvements.

Barbarians need to be made like real barbarians or removed at all - only standalone units without cities.

i know about such options but atleast it need to be clarified somewhere

 

[Raven Destroyer]

probably you could tune it down a little in BUG although i can't say what way because it is a little vague with the ingame help (or i'm misreading it)

 

[Koshling]

i understand then what happened.

Ok, so is there some way to make them like city-states in civ5 ? or simply can they be non-civ ?
something like: each city make research for themselfs only, they produce own units (identifible by home city) they hunt (barbs at present dont hunt at all). Also barbarians need to be reckless and agrresive - in game barbs doing very cleverly - like they dont attack tribal gurdian they instead destroy improvements.

Barbarians need to be made like real barbarians or removed at all - only standalone units without cities.

i know about such options but atleast it need to be clarified somewhere

With the default options they will form city states, just not right at the start. They will first appear as stand alone units, then later (around the start of ancient era) will form cities, which will evolve into city states if not captured for a time. Those will then become minor civs, and eventually full AI civs if they survive.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Normally barbarians start to form cities when the lead player gets Tribalism. If you have Barbarian World on a barbarian city is placed at the start for every civ in the game. If you have Barbarian Civs on any barbarian city will become a AI civ when the conditions set in the BUG options are met.

 

[ls612]

I'd suspect some changes to civics (and possibly traits) for barbs. With Barb world, all those civs in the game spawned a barb city immediately. Normally, barbs have a severe restriction to how fast they research. But with 20 cities at game start, I'd say they'd research pretty fast in comparison to any given civ, even if they do still have a malus to research which is probably what has been severely reduced (or possibly even eliminated... not sure how far we went with this.) Basically, the Barbarians is a civ themselves and 20 starting cities is quite a few to amass research with.

Speaking of clarification, you should probably add a New Concepts page in the pedia about Leaderhead Leveling.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Speaking of clarification, you should probably add a New Concepts page in the pedia about Leaderhead Leveling.

Good point. I figured I'd do this once all tweaks were finalized for the most part. Still a few things I'm going to do there. I want to use AIAndy's new scaling for it so that it can take map size and game difficulty into effect. I'm also still debating if the neg's should come in at every second positive rather than every third after the first at the second. I'm ALSO wondering if we're obtaining generally more culture than I expected... we may be, in which case a slight adjustment to the base achievement value may be in order.

@All: if you wish to comment on any of the above, I'd invite the comments into the Leaderhead Leveling thread.

 

[Thunderbrd]

i understand then what happened.

Ok, so is there some way to make them like city-states in civ5 ? or simply can they be non-civ ?
something like: each city make research for themselfs only, they produce own units (identifible by home city) they hunt (barbs at present dont hunt at all). Also barbarians need to be reckless and agrresive - in game barbs doing very cleverly - like they dont attack tribal gurdian they instead destroy improvements.

Barbarians need to be made like real barbarians or removed at all - only standalone units without cities.

i know about such options but atleast it need to be clarified somewhere

Sorry for the double post but it was a different topic really...

One thing I've often though the Barb nation was doing and I think it should do now that I know it does not:

I believe the barbs 'research' should not be tallied like a normal civ for just this reason of multiple cities and so on. Personally, I think they'd always strike just the right chord to not have research but rather be awarded techs based on what other civs have achieved. Thus, if half of the civs on a map have a tech, the barbs are then awarded that tech. That simple.

Does anyone agree or not agree?

 

[AIAndy]

Sorry for the double post but it was a different topic really...

One thing I've often though the Barb nation was doing and I think it should do now that I know it does not:

I believe the barbs 'research' should not be tallied like a normal civ for just this reason of multiple cities and so on. Personally, I think they'd always strike just the right chord to not have research but rather be awarded techs based on what other civs have achieved. Thus, if half of the civs on a map have a tech, the barbs are then awarded that tech. That simple.

Does anyone agree or not agree?

They already get free research towards each tech depending on how many civs have that tech so all that is needed is to adapt the constant of that system and preventing them from getting normal research (at that time it might be worth it to look that the integer arithmetic in the barbarian free research calculation does not overflow for the research cost values of C2C).

 

[Thunderbrd]

They already get free research towards each tech depending on how many civs have that tech so all that is needed is to adapt the constant of that system and preventing them from getting normal research (at that time it might be worth it to look that the integer arithmetic in the barbarian free research calculation does not overflow for the research cost values of C2C).

There ya go! That sounds like a solution. I'm working on too much atm to address it but I'll keep it in mind down the road if someone else hasn't tackled it.

 

[ls612]

They already get free research towards each tech depending on how many civs have that tech so all that is needed is to adapt the constant of that system and preventing them from getting normal research (at that time it might be worth it to look that the integer arithmetic in the barbarian free research calculation does not overflow for the research cost values of C2C).

It should probably be based on the percentage of people in the game that have a specific tech, not the raw number. That way it will scale up and down equally well.

 

[AIAndy]

It should probably be based on the percentage of people in the game that have a specific tech, not the raw number. That way it will scale up and down equally well.

That is how it is implemented.
They get BARBARIAN_FREE_TECH_PERCENT of the research cost of a tech per turn when all players have it and X% of that if X% have the tech.

 

[Koshling]

That is how it is implemented.
They get BARBARIAN_FREE_TECH_PERCENT of the research cost of a tech per turn when all players have it and X% of that if X% have the tech.

If this is how it works, isn't the op's original situation a little hard to explain...?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Do the Barbs get access to Goody Huts? OP never stated Difficulty level he's playing either.

In the last several games I've noticed that the Barbs will show up with Archers while I still have atls, or regular Spearman while I only have Wooden spear.

Just makes you more careful when attacking barbs is all. Especially with all the Promos you can get now.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

If this is how it works, isn't the op's original situation a little hard to explain...?

Not if they also have research of their own coming in that was always intended and expected to be at a minimum. I believe he's explaining that they get a big bonus to research based on what other civs have got but not that they don't have to push a little bit with some of their own research to finish techs. If anything, from what I'm understanding here, if I'm right at all, this would mean its not shocking at all that barbs are out-teching the rest of the world if their resaerch rates have been freed up to be more comparable to normal civs!

Do the Barbs get access to Goody Huts? OP never stated Difficulty level he's playing either.

In the last several games I've noticed that the Barbs will show up with Archers while I still have atls, or regular Spearman while I only have Wooden spear.

Just makes you more careful when attacking barbs is all. Especially with all the Promos you can get now.

JosEPh

Barbs can't get Goody Huts. Note how they go to protect them from any civs getting them as if they are some kind of 'barb village'.

 

[masaykh]

I stated Monarch difficulty.

 

[AIAndy]

Not if they also have research of their own coming in that was always intended and expected to be at a minimum. I believe he's explaining that they get a big bonus to research based on what other civs have got but not that they don't have to push a little bit with some of their own research to finish techs. If anything, from what I'm understanding here, if I'm right at all, this would mean its not shocking at all that barbs are out-teching the rest of the world if their resaerch rates have been freed up to be more comparable to normal civs!

They get research like any player (at least I did not find anything that prevents them to when I checked the code). The free beakers are in addition to that.
I'd say remove the normal research gain but change the free tech to only require half or two third of all civs to have that tech (so it ignores any minor nations).