Viable melee in vanilla FFH2?

[strategynoob]

Even though there's still a ton I don't know about this game, I know fireballs (heh) and summons. I really like the magic system since it gets around the stack of doom problem from Civ 4. Call me a noob if you want but I didn't really like giant stacks of doom. It just seems really messy and grindy to have 2 giant stacks duke it out and hope you win. That's why I like summoned elementals/wraiths, especially with the puppet people. There doesn't seem many armies that can stand up to puppet twincasted elementals out the wazoo, heh.

But in my last game, I weirdly found like 3 mithril veins all in my borders as soon as I researched it, so I started thinking about the viability of melee in FFH. Any thoughts on best races/strats? (Or if it's even viable?) Most obvious choices seem to be the raider people (Dovello?) who get the free hero at the beginning, and the horse guys.

Though if you try to go full melee, won't you get hosed if you never find any mithril?

 

[Breunor]

I think buidling a melee army is the 'main' strategy for FfH; I suspect most armies built across the bord are domianted by melee armies, champions with iron or even acemen/swordmen. I usually view that archer/mage/catapult based armies are more of a ncihe strategy.

With the exception of the Amurites and perhps a few others (Sheaim perhaps), I recommend the melee strategy as the prime one for most nations.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[strategynoob]

I think buidling a melee army is the 'main' strategy for FfH; I suspect most armies built across the bord are domianted by melee armies, champions with iron or even acemen/swordmen. I usually view that archer/mage/catapult based armies are more of a ncihe strategy.

With the exception of the Amurites and perhps a few others (Sheaim perhaps), I recommend the melee strategy as the prime one for most nations.

Best wishes,

Breunor

Uh, can you elaborate please?

I think my issue has been that I mainly play maps set to huge and except for this one recent game where I got mithril like crazy, I'm lucky if I ever even see one copper resource.

Iron and mithril normally never pop for me.

Maybe the question I should be asking is, what am I doing wrong to not get iron or mithril to pop for me? Should I be researching smeling/mithril working earlier?

 

[Breunor]

Mithril isn't that common, but iron is pretty common. It is a little odd you aren't getting it, unless maybe you are using an unusual map?

Iron is so good that it pays to see if it is there early and settle to get the resosource. If you don't think you can get iron, it really pays to research Runes of Kilmorph and get the Mines of Gul-dur, which gives three iron.

Oh, as far as my last post goes, always go cavalry with the Hippus!

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Goodwill]

Melee units by themselves I rate as "fair" but as part of a team they really shine more. Add an order priest to the stack and they get two more holy stength each per turn. A single av priest followed by a couple catapults really soften up a stack. Or if you're coastal tsunamis are a win too. A couple adepts for haste and misc buffs. The specific strata depend on the civ, but melee are a pretty decent way to go and there are lots of different ways to tailor their use in your specific game. In multiplayer casters can be pretty fun and tier three are pretty powerful, but mages alone wont usually go very far. They are too easy to kill, and it's very easy to render a fireball stray mostly harmless. Something like air two (maelstrom) is pretty powerful, but only if you have melee units to follow up with. By itself it isn't going to kill anything. And basically in mp players simply play much smarter than the ai who is way too easy to exploit with reckless magic use. Players wont let you slack like that!

 

[Emptiness]

I'm lucky if I ever even see one copper resource.

Iron and mithril normally never pop for me.

When you research the tech that allows you to see a resource is not important. Those resources are placed when the world is created by the map generator, not when you research the technology.

I would suggest that you consider using different map settings, or just a different map generator. Normally, copper should be very common and iron common. Playing a game without either should be unusual, not typical - although, the larger the map the greater the potential to be isolated from any particular resource.

If you do end up without them, it is best if you find out early, and adapt your strategy accordingly (by doing as Breunor suggested, or by switching off Melee into Magic or Divine). You may even be able to go capture iron or copper from someone nearby if you reveal them early enough.

Personally, I find Mithril to be just icing on the cake. I don't need it to beat an opponent, even if they do have it. (Researching enough techs into the Magic line to get the ability to cast Rust costs less than researching Mithril Working.)

 

[civ-wrecked]

I'm all melee with only some mages for support (and catapults if there are some tough cities to capture). I play to see how fast I can win (on normal map and speed) and often win before I even get archmages and pretty much all the games were won before getting mithril weapons.

I just finished my best score (over 300K) game last night with the Clan (which I initially disliked since they had 10% research penalty and I only played them because I wanted to collect the game trophies ). It turned out the ogre twins were great tanks so the slower research did not matter much.
And, of course, if you have a strong melee army early, you can hit a few neighbors to get them to give you techs and cities in exchange peace treaties. Those fully-promoted melee units will help much better later also.
BTW, it took only 3 canon-fodder ogres (i.e. just built) to knock Avaron, the red dragon, down to almost-death without using any catapults.

 

[Clove]

Mithril isn't that common, but iron is pretty common. It is a little odd you aren't getting it, unless maybe you are using an unusual map?

Iron is so good that it pays to see if it is there early and settle to get the resosource. If you don't think you can get iron, it really pays to research Runes of Kilmorph and get the Mines of Gul-dur, which gives three iron.

Oh, as far as my last post goes, always go cavalry with the Hippus!

Best wishes,

Breunor

Melee units are king. You can use them in almost any situation and they won't suck.

If you don't have copper, I think it is a winning move to go straight to mines of GalDur. I used to think I should research Iron Working first to see if I have iron before I built a special wonder to get iron, but I changed my mind.

The reason is this: Mines of Galdur doesn't just get you iron. It also upgrades your axemen/swordmen and Soldiers of Kilmorph with Iron Weapons immediately, even if you don't have the expensive (in the early game) iron working tech. Mines of Galdur will get you the most powerful units in the world in the early game, as well as Bambur with iron weapons.

Also, if you build Mines of Galdur AFTER you get iron working and see no iron, you are going to be way behind in the arms race. It is pretty sub-par to do all kinds of research and building to only get adequate units.

Bambur also can enchant your melee guys' weapon to add 20% strength to your early 6 power units. Add in some catapults and you are really ready to roll. You have a very significant amount of time available to use these elite early units before an opponent will get champions.

Sheaim are a little painful to play, with their lack of good melee. Firebows for Amurite are really good, so there is disincentive to go heavy melee. But there is nothing actually wrong with the Amurite melee guys. The barbarians who have orcs, goblins and ogres for their units are a little painful to play, since their axemen can't be upgraded to champions/Ogres.

For Sheaim and the Orcs: You could build the more expensive Soldiers of Kilmorph since they can be upgraded into something decent later, even if they can't become champions. They do lose you valuable time though, since they cost 50% more hammers.

Try focusing on melee with the crazy clown people, since you like playing them with magic focus already. The mimics may have 1 less power than normal champions, but they totally rock with their ability to steal promotions. You can get a super army of mutants pretty easily by choosing your attacking mimic by using whichever one can gain a promotion. Keep the odds wildly in your favor by using magic or catapults. Also, build freaks and promote the strong ones to mimic, so you have a strong start. Good mutations will cancel out the 1 point of power difference.

 

[Clove]

Mithril isn't that common, but iron is pretty common. It is a little odd you aren't getting it, unless maybe you are using an unusual map?

Iron is so good that it pays to see if it is there early and settle to get the resosource. If you don't think you can get iron, it really pays to research Runes of Kilmorph and get the Mines of Gul-dur, which gives three iron.

Oh, as far as my last post goes, always go cavalry with the Hippus!

Best wishes,

Breunor

Melee units are king. You can use them in almost any situation and they won't suck.

If you don't have copper, I think it is a winning move to go straight to mines of GalDur. I used to think I should research Iron Working first to see if I have iron before I built a special wonder to get iron, but I changed my mind.

The reason is this: Mines of Galdur doesn't just get you iron. It also upgrades your axemen/swordmen and Soldiers of Kilmorph with Iron Weapons immediately, even if you don't have the expensive (in the early game) iron working tech. Mines of Galdur will get you the most powerful units in the world in the early game, as well as Bambur with iron weapons.

Bambur also can enchant your melee guys' weapon to add 20% strength to your early 6 power units. Add in some catapults and you are really ready to roll. You have a very significant amount of time available to use these elite early units before an opponent will get champions.

Sheaim are a little painful to play, with their lack of good melee. Firebows for Amurite are really good, so there is disincentive to go heavy melee. But there is nothing actually wrong with the Amurite melee guys. The barbarians who have orcs, goblins and ogres for their units are a little painful to play, since their axemen can't be upgraded to champions/Ogres.

 

[Goodwill]

As an alternative strat, sometimes I like to beelinish towards priesthood and spam tier twos. They can't use copper but they do have strength six and march and can dominate pretty well in that era. I give them command as soon as I can and usually can grow a fairly diverse and good sized force just by converting conquered units. And since I don't have to have the techs for those units to have them, I can focus on other things for awhile. I don't do that all the time by any means but it sure is fun when I do.

 

[Jarrema]

In 'vanilla' FfH melee units just rocks ibn comparison with other.
Other units have typically a role of support for melee one.
Sometimes you can go with other unit in place of melee, but this is an exeption, not a rule.
For example, Hippus can go for mounted units and neglect melee, or you can use priest as melee-like units, and of course paladins/eidolons, while etechnically disciple units, are in practice potent melee ones.

But you need always something else than mage-users and catapults, and in majority of cases it would be melee.

As for mithril - most games that I play I win or loose long before having chance for mithril weapons; if my enemy has it - I go for rust, which is easy to obtain (like Emptiness point at it)