Victory methods

[General_W]

I understand that manipulation is out of the question.

What you seem to be missing, is that IF WW is indeed off – Republic (and democracy) become much more attractive governments. Even without manipulation. I don't want any fake wars! I'm thinking about the real deal!

IF WW is off, long wars become a possibility for us – even while in Republic… which is why I brought this up in this thread… As has been noted – this game seems unlikely to go all the way to a space race. HOWEVER, esp. if WW is off, Republic is still to Greece’s strength, without handicapping our ability to engage in drawn-out wars when/if necessary.

P.S. I have begun testing WW in my PBEM game. It may still take a while for results. Stay tuned.

 

[Emp.Napoleon]

In a game as small as this, it has to be conquest, no question.

 

[Rik Meleet]

have been trying to get war weariness for 50 turns in a pbem game. Democrarcy, I have lost lost lots of units, lost over 50% of my cities, still no WW. Did firaxis disable WW in multiplayer?
I believe the answer is: No WW in pbem games, not even if you declare war as a democracy and lose most of your cities! I don't know about turnless etc.

I have suffered from War Weariness in a PBEM game. It will happen.

 

[General_W]

Ok - I'd like to use this thread to re-open the question of our path to victory.

It's trite, but true:
If you fail to plan - you plan to fail.

How WILL we win this game? Now that we've met our first enemy, it's time for some serious soul searching. Whatever will we do.

For many intents and purposes, I LEARNED to play Civ from Ision - one of the true great players of Civ.

Here are some key things he had to say about the Greeks...

Commercial and scientific, oh how the money and the techs roll in!
...
For the human Greek player, Greece was a wonderful builder CIV. Their assets include: Cheap Libraries and Universities, tons of cash to hurry and upgrade quickly, better science research, a free tech every age, a strong defensive UU (the Hoplite 1-3-1) that may keep your military expenditures down in the early game, also that UU tends to make aggressive AIs far more leery of an early Ancient age attack. The Greek traits/UU lend themselves to a very efficient game play when ugly situations arise unexpectedly. In the late game the Greek commerce can be a game saver and an AI game breaker. Warmongering with the Greeks can also be very rewarding. The warmongering Greek typically starts very peacefully, amassing gold and preparing his infrastructure in depth, the Greek can launch a massive late middle age Cavalry rush. Correctly played Greece could mass upgrade the very turn of a major military unit improvement, which in turn will lead to the quick demise of any foe! Want to launch a Space Race victory, just try to beat the Greeks to those techs! Want to be the worlds banker, beloved by all, sitting pretty on a UN vote - just try to beat the Greeks! Want to beat the Greeks to a cultural win - even the Babylonians will have their hands full trying.
...
C3C has seen the resurrection of the science trait. The addition of the possibility of a Great Scientific Leaders for the first Civ to discover a tech makes for even stronger Greek play. The greater need to do your own research for techs also enhances Greece as a top choice. Once the 'bugs' are ironed out in the patch, the commercial trait will benefit immensely. The dynamics of the science/commercial combo will be accentuated to an even greater degree than ever before. The toning down of the Industrious trait alone, improves your workers ability in an indirect manner. C3C sees an already strong Greece, become even stronger.

Read the whole thing here:

Since we are up against all early UU civs - Ision's recommended "middle-late ages cavalry rush" sounds pretty appealing to me.

Let's really get this hammed out as a team! I'm open to whatever - but I really hope to see us have a clear goal by the time I leave office as president.

Final Note: My PBEM games tend to be peaceful between humans - maybe all my friends are just builders? So let me know if I'm just wildly/stupidly optimistic to think we can hold off war that long.

 

[Meleager]

I think your optimistic. 4 ancient age UUs 3 of them agressive. There will be war in the ancient era. The iqrouis have an even better path to calvary destruction then we do scince they can use their UU upgrade to knights then to calvary. very useful. I think we are better to use our UU offensively. Nothing could kill a stack with a couple of hoplites on top.

 

[Chamnix]

I agree that we need to plan, but unfortunately my complete lack of multiplayer experience makes me fairly useless here...

I see a small window of opportunity very early. We can already build an army of warriors and upgrade to swords fairly early while it will take the Iroquois some time to research iron working, settle near iron (if necessary), and hook it up. If they ignore the Bronze Working/Iron Working route, they will not have any unit with a defense of more than 1 for a while. Since they will likely be an early Republic, they will either be short of workers, short of military, or have severe unit upkeep.

Is it practical to try to attack early? I have no idea. We still don't know their location, and it obviously will take time to build a force and move it that far (even though this is a small map, because there are only 4 civs, distances between civs are pretty big). I am sceptical about our chance of pulling it off.

If this window closes, then I think our next good opportunity will be with cavalry. We should be the tech leaders by then and get cavalry first.

I don't know that the Iroquois will be in any hurry to attack us early. Mounties against hoplites is an even battle whereas on the counterattack, swords should be very successful against spears.

The early decision is - do we build warrior/swords, or do we build chariots/horses for eventual upgrade (assuming we have horses)?

I look forward to learning from the multiplayer experts.

 

[General_W]

I hear what you’re saying about me being optimistic – but it seems like Greece may be in a uniquely good position to triangulate our way into a serious tech advantage... then start the killing.

Our hoplites (with swords for counter-attack) should serve as an excellent deterrent, as well as an effective practical defense if necessary.

We know there’s already animosity with TNT, and so far the KISSers and D’noughters seem pretty friendly.

I know I’m speculating wildly here – but we maybe the first civ to talk to 2 civs – another chance to be the tech broker!

Also – given our quick contact, has anyone considered that even though Rik said there were 2 continents, he never said it was 2 civs per continent? Given our early contact with 2 civs, maybe we’re all on the same landmass – with a virgin “new world” out there waiting to be settled?

Cautionary note for Chamnix: Iroquois don’t need iron – their mounted warriors serve as 2 move swordsmen – for the same cost in shields.

 

[peter grimes]

I think that if I were KISS (gallic swordsmen) I'd be very likely to go straight for Iron Working and then make an early swipe to knock back my neighbor. That's what I'm now afraid of here.

As for overall game stategy: I agree that we need one, just so long as we evaluate our progressevery so often, and assess how we're doing. If we are starting to lag behond our goals, we need to remain flexible enough to change course and look for new opportunities.

Am I suggesting a target timeline? I guess I am. Maybe we should set a target year for full Hoplite coverage. Another one might be a target date for completing research of Republic. Found our nth city by year X. And the big Kahuna: When shall we try for a Golden Age?

Once we have some concrete goals, we can reverse engineer the step required to meet those goals.

 

[fe3333au]

On big picture pschological level KISS and D-Nuts are already sitting close, sharing jokes and information ... how else did the KISS meet us ... and their messages reached us on virtually the same pigeon

We need to tread warily ... and assume that what one hears the other will as well ... they are a two headed beast ...

 

[peter grimes]

A two -headed beast is not what I'm afraid of. Together, we will all share the same goals. Maybe we should explore the opportunities of unity!?

We are weak. We won't be for long. We can all profit. TNT is the only other scientific. Ramp up our commerce, and we (allied with KISS and DNUT) can s-m-a-s-h TNT.

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself..

At the same time, though, we can d-i-t-c-h our allies after TNT is g-o-n-e, allowing us a clear field ahead....

 

[Chamnix]

Cautionary note for Chamnix: Iroquois don’t need iron – their mounted warriors serve as 2 move swordsmen – for the same cost in shields.

Mounted warriors are 3/1/2 - you are right that they don't need iron, but they do need bronze working for spears or they will not have anything with defense greater than 1.

 

[fe3333au]

Grasshopper ... a beast with two heads can easily be confused ... as to TNT smashing ... yes we can watch it all transpire and take the best of the pickings ...

I think up our economy asap ... we need to be the ones with capital information