Vietnam... Should it be in Civ at all?

[Gilder]

really? yes, it might anger some people, but according to the "Ka-Ching" theory of civ represenation, wouldn't Vietnam be... good for that?

No. It'd be terrible. Civilization is marketed mainly towards Americans. Vietnam does not exactly mean good things to Americans.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Niether would russia for Poland. But i see your point as it is an american game.

 

[Soneji]

loool thats true.

Superduper new AI craps vietnam all over their computers with jungle infantry and nukes!

 

[cybrxkhan]

No. It'd be terrible. Civilization is marketed mainly towards Americans. Vietnam does not exactly mean good things to Americans.

really? from what ive heard they make more jokes about it than cry/get angry about it nowadays... but i guess i could be wrong.

 

[TheLastOne36]

they cry/get angry towards WW2 not Vietnam.

Infact i think most people would enjoy playing as vietnam rather then Khmer. But that's MHO (my humble opinion)

 

[cybrxkhan]

precisely.

actually, from what i remember in school, my "friends" there were less likely to admit they lost and say how terrible it was and all that, and instead they probably rather make jokes about napalm and how skinny all Vietnamese are (which is true to an extent)

 

[0R4NG3]

I think Vietnam would make a pretty good addition to Civ.
The only possible problem could be the lack of conquests or offensive wars, but then I suppose India didn't have any either. Also this is compensated by the amount of defensive wars.

 

[Ecofarm]

What is Pho, exactly (I gather it is some kind of food)?

Yes, you can send me some for free and I may convert! If it is anything like Kim-chi, forget it - cabbage prepared by burial and rotting is not nice.


When I think of Khmer, I think of this:

On April 17th, 1975 the Khmer Rouge, a communist guerrilla group led by Pol Pot, took power in Phnom Penh, the capital of Cambodia. They forced all city dwellers into the countryside and to labor camps. During their rule, it is estimated that 2 million Cambodians died by starvation, torture or execution. 2 million Cambodians represented approximately 30% of the Cambodian population during that time.

The Khmer Rouge turned Cambodia to year zero. They banned all institutions, including stores, banks, hospitals, schools, religion, and the family. Everyone was forced to work 12 - 14 hours a day, every day. Children were separated from their parents to work in mobile groups or as soldiers. People were fed one watery bowl of soup with a few grains of rice thrown in. Babies, children, adults and the elderly were killed everywhere. The Khmer Rouge killed people if they didn’t like them, if didn’t work hard enough, if they were educated, if they came from different ethnic groups, or if they showed sympathy when their family members were taken away to be killed. All were killed without reason. Everyone had to pledge total allegiance to Angka, the Khmer Rouge government. It was a campaign based on instilling constant fear and keeping their victims off balance.

After the Vietnamese invaded and liberated the Cambodian people from the Khmer Rouge, 600,000 Cambodians fled to Thai border camps. Ten million landmines were left in the ground, one for every person in Cambodia. The United Nations installed the largest peacekeeping mission in the world in Cambodia in 1991 to ensure free and fair elections after the withdrawal of the Vietnamese troops. Cambodia was turned upside down during the Khmer Rouge years and the country has the daunting task of healing physically, mentally and economically.

http://www.dithpran.org/killingfields.htm

Do you only get 1/2 the hammers when you whip?

 

[cybrxkhan]

What is Pho, exactly (I gather it is some kind of food)?

usually it is noodle soup with beef stuff (and spices), but any meat can be substituted - chicken, pork, pork intestine, half-born chicken eggs...

 

[Ecofarm]

How about Tofu? I'll take 1 tofu Pho, to go.


Half-born chicken eggs? What the hell? Do they wait till the chick starts to poke through the shell, then throw em in boiling water?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

The only possible problem could be the lack of conquests or offensive wars, but then I suppose India didn't have any either. Also this is compensated by the amount of defensive wars.

Lack of offensive wars? There were offensive wars. The Viet empires engaged in wars of conquest against the Champa kingdom and were a regional power.

India had its share of wars as well. Before "India" was a single entity, it was several different empires in competition and conflict with one another.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Lack of offensive wars? There were offensive wars. The Viet empires engaged in wars of conquest against the Champa kingdom and were a regional power.

righto! and we almost tried to conquer part of Manchurian China (Quang Trung, remember)... but he died, so we never got the oppurtunity.

but we are remembered more for defending then offending, i guesss...

Half-born chicken eggs? What the hell? Do they wait till the chick starts to poke through the shell, then throw em in boiling water?

oops, musta misread me! not actually half-born, i meant half developed. and there is vegetarian pho too. thats the one i eat.

 

[Slobadog]

Vietnam wasn't mentioned in your history as having any unique grand architecture. While Kmer had Ankor Wat. So i voted Kmer. Gotta have art to balance things. Too much conflict in your history. Pho seems nice but not great. Maybe you should send me some. Maybe a taste will change my mind.

 

[cybrxkhan]

and does having Stonehenge put the primitive Britons in the game? does building the great Shewaddon Pegawa ) ) guarantee the Burmese in? dont you go bashing at Vietnam with that logic!



i can see your argument. it was used many times before, and it is... somewhat plausible and agreeable. however, i don't think it would have much application to this situation.

anyhow, you can probably find Pho at a local restaurant. you live in some kind of western country, right?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Well, there are the Nguyen palaces at Hue and the "Temple of Literature." Not as impressive as Angkor Wat, but still pretty nice.

 

[cybrxkhan]

and i know there are tons of Buddhist temples and pagodas all over the place... again, not as impressive as Angkor Wat, but theres many of them, much more than the Khmer, i think.

 

[NyukXI]

Personally I'd rather see Ayutthaya (ie Thai). But Vietnam is not a bad choice. I'm not excited about the prospect of the Khmer, primarily because AFAIK not a whole lot is known about them. Indonesia would be an interesting choice too IMO.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Khmer were a choice I'm very happy with. Been waiting for them long time. No offense to Vietnam or anything, but I'd pick Khmer and Srivijaya way before Vietnam. A Champa civilization would be cool though; but Khmer first!

 

[Legba]

Should Vietnam be in? Sure. I would prefer them over the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Locutus]

and does having Stonehenge put the primitive Britons in the game? does building the great Shewaddon Pegawa ) ) guarantee the Burmese in? dont you go bashing at Vietnam with that logic!

Stonehenge was (more or less) a one-off, Angkor Wat is neither the largest nor the most important Khmer temple city, certainly far from the only one: there are great Khmer temple complexes throughout the territories of the Khmer empire, from Wat Phu and Vientiane in Laos to Phimai and Lopburi in Thailand to Mueang Sing along the Thai-Burmese border to Phnom Chisor near the southern Cambodian-Vietnamese border -- not to mention the hundreds of temples in the Siem Reap area (of which Angkor Thom is the largest). More importantly, the giant temples are only one aspect of the Khmer's engineering skills. They built a road network throughout SE Asia with resthouses and hospitals along the route, similar to the Roman road network. And their irrigation and water-management systems were in complexity only surpassed by modern systems, allowing for the year-round cultivation of rice and preventing the flooding of the Mekong (something we can't even do with modern technology -- although that's as much a financial issue as a technological one). The Khmer were arguably the greatest engineers in history, on par with the Egyptians and the Mayans. If you think Angkor Wat was their main accomplishment you don't know much about them (which granted is true for most people -- although the same can be said of the Vietnamese of course).