Violent Revolution Thread

They were also dealing with an undemocratic government

Just because you (or hardly anyone else) did not get a vote does not mean it was not democratic!

A survey conducted in 1780 revealed that the electorate in England and Wales consisted of just 214,000 people - less than 3% of the total population of approximately 8 million. In Scotland the electorate was even smaller: in 1831 a mere 4,500 men, out of a population of more than 2.6 million people, were entitled to vote in parliamentary elections. Large industrial cities like Leeds, Birmingham and Manchester did not have a single MP between them, whereas 'rotten boroughs' such as Dunwich in Suffolk (which had a population of 32 in 1831) were still sending two MPs to Westminster.

[EDIT] I have just thought, have you guys ever done the "what if" of us trying to buy off the founding fathers with something like scotland but more so, with say 450 votes and a handful of MPs. They could have made the UK abolitionist movement harder.
 
I've got to say that the violent revolution in Syria isn't going all that well, at the moment.

It did start out non-violent, but turned violent, understandably I guess, when it continued to encounter nothing but intransigence from the Assad regime.

I wonder if the death count would have been as high as it's so far proved if they'd stuck to their non-violent (ahem) "guns".
 
Commodore said:
Actually, it kinda does. At least when trying to determine who has the moral high ground. Freeing slaves for any reason other than out of the kindness of your heart takes away any moral superiority you can claim for doing so. Both the British and Union forces freed slaves to gain military and political advantages over their foes and if those advantages weren't there those slaves wouldn't have been freed. So I say bravo to them for freeing the slaves, but I'm not going to give them any moral points for doing so since they did it out of a sense of selfishness.

Hmm, I guess we just have a difference in how we look at the world then.

Commodore said:
Except British rule was considered intolerable, even by the standards of the time. If it weren't, there wouldn't have been a rebellion. So nice try in trying to make me look like a hypocrite, but it didn't work.

"Considered" intolerable? What does that matter?

Commodore said:
And while the condition of many did not change, the potential to change their condition now existed where previously it didn't through the new institutions that were put in place that gave power to the people. Sure, at the time it was only a handful of people, but the potential was there to expand the number people given power, which it did expand. If British rule had continued as it had, there's no guarantee democracy would have become as widespread as it is today.

Considering the British are surely quite democratic by any standard that says we're democratic, what makes you think this?


Commodore said:
Well, for one, it was the American Revolution that inspired the French Revolution.

I think it was mainly famine and national bankruptcy that "inspired" the French Revolution.

Commodore said:
The American Revolution was also the catalyst for the spread of democracy and the idea that the republic was the best way to govern.

Evidence for this proposition?

Commodore said:
Without a successful revolt in America, the monarchies of Europe may not have collapsed like they did in the 19th century and the colonial empires may have continued to exist. Now I'm sure you would agree a world like that would be worse than the world we have today.

Other than France, which European monarchies collapsed in the 19th century :confused:
Spoiler :
0eGoLfy.png
 
Wait. France's monarchy collapsed in the C19th?

France is the "before 1900" colour I think.

[EDIT] Any one know what the "Never a Monarchy" dot on Italy's east coast is?
 
Well, France certainly "lost" its monarchy before 1900. I can't, and don't, deny it.
 
Hmm, I guess we just have a difference in how we look at the world then.

Yeah, my realism versus your edgy nonconformism.

"Considered" intolerable? What does that matter?

That's all that does matter. There is no such thing as objectively tolerable or objectively intolerable. Whether or not a government's rule is intolerable is determined by the governed and not by anyone else. The funny thing is, I know you agree with this, you are just arguing the point now because your edgy nonconformism prevents you from ever admitting the US was in the right on anything.

Considering the British are surely quite democratic by any standard that says we're democratic, what makes you think this?

Are you just being willfully obtuse for the sake of argument or do really not know that the British government now is not the same British government of 18th century?

But no, the British government was not democratic by any standard we have. They gave their colonies zero representation in Parliament while still taxing them and dictating policy to them. On the other hand, the US does not give representation to it's territories, but does not force their citizens to pay federal income tax and grants them semi-autonomy when determining their own laws and policies.


I think it was mainly famine and national bankruptcy that "inspired" the French Revolution.

That's what kicked it off. The catalyst and the inspiration are two different things and most historians name the American revolution as one of the inspirations for the revolutionaries in France.

Seriously man, stop being willfully obtuse just for the sake of argument. It's not very becoming and makes people form a negative opinion of you and prevents them from taking you seriously in future discussions.
 
Commodore said:
Yeah, my realism versus your edgy nonconformism.

No, you apparently believe in deontological ethics while I'm a consequentialist...and as for realism, I think only one of our respective views allows for identification of values in the real world. In your view freeing the slaves wasn't a moral act because it wasn't done out of pure sentiment. But is anything in the world ever actually done from pure sentiment? Ultimately your view of morality leads to a retreat from the world, which is inevitably messy.
Perhaps that's why you frequently insist that "nothing has really changed" and "real change is impossible."

Commodore said:
That's all that does matter. There is no such thing as objectively tolerable or objectively intolerable. Whether or not a government's rule is intolerable is determined by the governed and not by anyone else. The funny thing is, I know you agree with this, you are just arguing the point now because your edgy nonconformism prevents you from ever admitting the US was in the right on anything.

:confused: I recently referred to the US as probably the most imperial power in history.
Now, I'm not interested in whether a regime is "tolerable." The election of Abraham Lincoln was "intolerable" to the Southern secessionists but so what? Does that mean we can pass moral judgments on his policies purely on the basis that the South revolted against them, so they must have been bad?

Commodore said:
Are you just being willfully obtuse for the sake of argument or do really not know that the British government now is not the same British government of 18th century?

It's not? It doesn't seem to have suffered from any drastic continuity breaks that I can discern.

Commodore said:
But no, the British government was not democratic by any standard we have. They gave their colonies zero representation in Parliament while still taxing them and dictating policy to them. On the other hand, the US does not give representation to it's territories, but does not force their citizens to pay federal income tax and grants them semi-autonomy when determining their own laws and policies.

I was talking about the current British government. Britain, as you implied above, has evolved alongside the US. So I was questioning why you think the US is necessary for there to be democracy in the world. I think it's probable the world was going to become more democratic whether the American Revolution succeeded or not.

Commodore said:
That's what kicked it off. The catalyst and the inspiration are two different things and most historians name the American revolution as one of the inspirations for the revolutionaries in France.

Evidence for "most historians name..."??

Commodore said:
Seriously man, stop being willfully obtuse just for the sake of argument. It's not very becoming and makes people form a negative opinion of you and prevents them from taking you seriously in future discussions.

I'm not being willfully obtuse, I'm asking questions to get you to clarify your position so I can understand it better.
 
But...it wasn't. The colonies had been run by the Assemblies because of the vacuum left by the English Civil War. It was during the 7 Years' War that the British began to impose tighter control on the colonies, which the colonial elites were understandably annoyed about.

There were assemblies, and it was the post-7 years war attempt at imperial centralization that kicked off the grumblings for revolution, but why did they choose to be radical? The political program the elites went through, and backed by a decent chunk of the population were very much experimental and rooted in enlightenment idealism.

The colonial elite could have chosen to stick with a north American monarchy which was responsive to their interests, but they didn't. The went with an national scale version of their local governments, which for the time was yes, radical.

I don't think this was 'ignited' by the Revolution at all. In fact, the colonies winning independence from Britain probably delayed the abolition of slavery considering that Britain abolished it about three decades earlier than we did.
Indeed, according to this page,

Oh, it very much was. There was some small debate concerning the morality of slavery before the revolution, but the discussion did not become a national issue until the revolt. Many, especially in the north where slavery was weakest, noticed the discrepancy between the popular enlightenment discourse that invoked freedom and literally holding people in bondage. As I said, that debate even penetrated the south, something that would not have happened if it were not for the revolution.

British abolition was very much a result of the revolution too. Many within the British government, on the home islands and in the colonies (such as Lord Dunmore) used the threat of slave rebellion to quell revolutionary fervor in the south. When the revolution broke out, he stuck to his words and offered freedom for escaped slaves and a place in his army. The British (at least the army in America, the abolitionist movement in the isles notwithstanding) could care less about the slaves, it was just a means to an end.

This debate can also be seen extended, within poor white circles, to indentured servants and the apprenticeship system. After the revolution, the system sees a very quick death and is very much a result of the same national language of radicalism that permeated the revolution and led to abolitionism.

The "feared" Indian states? The colonials were more to be feared than the Indians, in my view.

From your Eurocentric 21st century seat, sure. Nothing can stop the strong white man.

Of course, historically, the Native Americans were in very destitute times. However, they were not helpless. The proclamation of 1763 was enforced for a reason. The British didn't really care to keep native American allies now that the French were out of the picture, but they did want to avoid an extremely costly and prolonged Indian war. And when fighting did happen, during and post-revolution, the American armies eventually triumphed but it was also extraordinarily costly. IIRC twice the entire continental army dispatched to destroy the Native Americans was destroyed.

The American government had no love of Indians, but they didn't believe they could just walk in and kill them all either. The civil war in the Iroqious confederacy very much destroyed one of the few Indian states that did cause pause for the American government.

The counter-revolution?

I wouldn't deny that the American Revolution brought about some very significant changes in the pattern of development for the (former) colonies. But I don't think it really amounted to much of a revolution because it represented the replacement of one imperial system with another, which was "radical" in some respects but in others (slavery being the elephant in the room) was hardly less conservative than Ancient Rome.

There is a distinct movement starting around the 1820s that saw to the reversal of many radicalisms from the revolution. Most notably in the participation of women in politics and public discourse. You see the female politician (a term for politically engaged women, not actual politicians as we use the term) fell to the wayside in favor or social issues, such as the temperance movement, or jail reform, etc. etc. The movement for female political engagement doesn't come back for another thirty years or so, around the 1850s. By 1820 the initial abolitionist movement also died a bit as slavery became very much entrenched in the south, it takes some time before it picks up steam again. There were other issues that appeared in the counter-revolution, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. It was the result of the radicalized revolutionary generation dying off and their more conservative offspring taking control of government.

And as I said before, what didn't get changed, such as disestablishmentarianism, the rise of the female politician, electoral democracy, the destruction of the apprentice system, and abolitionism in the north, was very much discussed publicly. You would not see the abolitionist movement take off if it were not for the revolution, as I said before. The revolution radicalized society, government, and most importantly, discourse in the colonies. It was a revolution through and through.

EDIT: If you want some solid reading, I can recommend a lot of books and academic papers that discuss the radicalism of the American revolution. I still have access to a lot of the academic readings I read for the class, as well as several books that discuss the roles of slaves and women in the American revolution.
 
Last comment on the matter due to it being off-topic: Have you ever been in a riot or firefight? No? Then you haven't experienced large-scale violence. This is true for the overwhelming majority of Americans and even the overwhelming majority of Westerners in general. That's why I'm more than a little dismissive of comfortable Westerners who think violent revolution is a good idea.
I have been in what the media called a riot some mumble mumble years ago, and the other month I watched the wire. I think how a poor black guy seeing "rich" white guys with guns patrolling his neighborhood like that as more serious large scale violence than what I saw.

Being in a firefight I can see being orders of magnitude, or categorically different, but I guess as with riots there are better and worse firefights to be in, or at least better and worse sides.
Advocating violent revolution also shows a woeful ignorance of history since more often than not, a violent revolution leads to a system that is even worse than the one that was overthrown. Now I don't know about you, but I'm not too keen on listening to those who are ignorant of history.
When young angry men take up arms, I suspect it is less ignorance than the optimism that comes with youth that this time will be one of the good ones. They have examples of that in history, probably the best is your own.
 
I've got to say that the violent revolution in Syria isn't going all that well, at the moment.

It did start out non-violent, but turned violent, understandably I guess, when it continued to encounter nothing but intransigence from the Assad regime.

I wonder if the death count would have been as high as it's so far proved if they'd stuck to their non-violent (ahem) "guns".

:eek: Whoa! It was the Assad regime who began slaughtering civilians. The first people to shoot back were army troops who, sick of the slaughter, switched sides.
 
There were assemblies, and it was the post-7 years war attempt at imperial centralization that kicked off the grumblings for revolution, but why did they choose to be radical? The political program the elites went through, and backed by a decent chunk of the population were very much experimental and rooted in enlightenment idealism.

The colonial elite could have chosen to stick with a north American monarchy which was responsive to their interests, but they didn't. The went with an national scale version of their local governments, which for the time was yes, radical.

Well, I suppose this hinges on what you think "radical" means. Can a political program embraced by elites and designed to shore up their power be "radical"? Can we really apply the term to what was, in effect, a compact of slaveholders? I don't think so, not with any consistency. The Roman Republic was not "radical" for its time either, though like the American Revolution it did enable some truly radical changes later on.

While you are right that there was a current of radicalism involved in the Revolution the actual governing institutions that were established were certainly not "radical." They retained power in the same place it had been before the Seven Years' War and did not fundamentally change the structure of power in the colonies.

Oh, it very much was. There was some small debate concerning the morality of slavery before the revolution, but the discussion did not become a national issue until the revolt. Many, especially in the north where slavery was weakest, noticed the discrepancy between the popular enlightenment discourse that invoked freedom and literally holding people in bondage. As I said, that debate even penetrated the south, something that would not have happened if it were not for the revolution.

British abolition was very much a result of the revolution too. Many within the British government, on the home islands and in the colonies (such as Lord Dunmore) used the threat of slave rebellion to quell revolutionary fervor in the south. When the revolution broke out, he stuck to his words and offered freedom for escaped slaves and a place in his army. The British (at least the army in America, the abolitionist movement in the isles notwithstanding) could care less about the slaves, it was just a means to an end.

This debate can also be seen extended, within poor white circles, to indentured servants and the apprenticeship system. After the revolution, the system sees a very quick death and is very much a result of the same national language of radicalism that permeated the revolution and led to abolitionism.

I have already provided a source suggesting that this is incorrect. From that same source:
When the Northern states gave up the last remnants of legal slavery, in the generation after the Revolution, their motives were a mix of piety, morality, and ethics; fear of a growing black population; practical economics; and the fact that the Revolutionary War had broken the Northern slaveowners' power and drained off much of the slave population. An exception was New Jersey, where the slave population actually increased during the war. Slavery lingered there until the Civil War, with the state reporting 236 slaves in 1850 and 18 as late as 1860.

In any case as I have said before I believe slavery would have been abolished here sooner had the English won the war. And I think the evidence supports that idea though obviously historical counterfactuals are tricky. Really, the most likely outcome probably would have been another war for independence when the British tried to abolish slavery.

From your Eurocentric 21st century seat, sure. Nothing can stop the strong white man.

:rolleyes: After the 17th century the Native Americans at no time posed an existential threat to the Europeans in North America, while the reverse obviously did not hold true, though the existential threat from the colonists was more of a long-term one.

My "eurocentric 21st century seat" suggests that the Native Americans had a society superior in nearly all respects to the colonial society. Indeed, we know that the colonies had to take harsh measures to prevent defection to the Native Americans because so many people were doing it.

The American government had no love of Indians, but they didn't believe they could just walk in and kill them all either. The civil war in the Iroqious confederacy very much destroyed one of the few Indian states that did cause pause for the American government.

No, they didn't think they could just walk in and kill them - they had to win a fair number of fights first. But then, as we know, they essentially did just walk in and kill them.

There is a distinct movement starting around the 1820s that saw to the reversal of many radicalisms from the revolution. Most notably in the participation of women in politics and public discourse. You see the female politician (a term for politically engaged women, not actual politicians as we use the term) fell to the wayside in favor or social issues, such as the temperance movement, or jail reform, etc. etc. The movement for female political engagement doesn't come back for another thirty years or so, around the 1850s. By 1820 the initial abolitionist movement also died a bit as slavery became very much entrenched in the south, it takes some time before it picks up steam again. There were other issues that appeared in the counter-revolution, but I can't remember them off the top of my head. It was the result of the radicalized revolutionary generation dying off and their more conservative offspring taking control of government.

And as I said before, what didn't get changed, such as disestablishmentarianism, the rise of the female politician, electoral democracy, the destruction of the apprentice system, and abolitionism in the north, was very much discussed publicly. You would not see the abolitionist movement take off if it were not for the revolution, as I said before. The revolution radicalized society, government, and most importantly, discourse in the colonies. It was a revolution through and through.

So again, we know this is false because the British had their own abolitionist movement which succeeded earlier than the American one did, based more on Christian principles than on politics. The Revolution did not allow the abolitionist movement to take off, and again I think the British winning would have sped abolition up.

EDIT: If you want some solid reading, I can recommend a lot of books and academic papers that discuss the radicalism of the American revolution. I still have access to a lot of the academic readings I read for the class, as well as several books that discuss the roles of slaves and women in the American revolution.

Yes, I definitely don't have access anymore to the readings I read in school casting doubt on the notion that the American Revolution was particularly Radical. You should read A People's History of the United States, though, that'd be a good start. Then maybe you'd admit the issue is debatable instead of assuming my position simply springs from ignorance.
 
Back
Top Bottom