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Virote's Ancient Greek Scenario - Public Alpha

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Virote_Considon, Dec 24, 2007.

  1. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    first, this is really great :)
    the concept is as far as i can measure really epic and perfect.

    i`ve read through the main thread and the ideas about involving mythological things and diffrent winning conditions for the diffrent tipe of civs soulds really good :goodjob:

    i`ve came upon the alpha only a few days ago and so far its really fun.
    some things i really liked and some, i think, could use a change.

    i must say in generall i`m not really into the map :sad:
    it`s a real good map but i rather play on realistic earth maps, of course that is MY liking so i have to deal with that :mischief:

    some things on the map nonetheless:

    - some city locations (specially egypt and the levante bur also in greece) could be changed to more accurancy
    - some resources (like silver near Laurium or copper on cyprus) could be added for more realism
    - if there will be another scenario map someday, maybe it could be more restricted to the mediteranean and the greece colonisation itself. oc couse this is depending on the timescale but the map now would suite a alexander and helenistic scenario more than an greek scenario.

    a problem with the current sea exporation:

    - the AI ships sometimes get stuck, while they can not enter ocean squares, but many searoutes only consit of a coastal tile bordered by land and ocean.
    so i came often upeon two ai ships just blocking themselves and thus blocking the whole searoute.this might block routes to enemys or later settling spots since ships can not enter ocean (at least i found none for now)

    so far there were two crash bugs:

    - wonder splash of Shrine to menelaos
    - wonder splash of lycurugus reform
    both were missing

    1st i`ve been playing as athens but since they are not finished and thus have no real tech tree i abondond that game since i cold not build useful units.

    2nd i gave athens all the techs and unit abilities of the corinthan civ ( well i wanted to play as athens :p) this was only a test how all might come out so i cheated in advancing the tech tree and buildings, i came upton the missing wonsplah bugs fixed them and checked out the overall gameplay.

    -i really love the concept with the mytological beasts roaming the map, you have to defeat them to get a settling spot or make the land safe.

    you could make some of them maybe immobile protecting special resources?!

    - the concept of being allowed to build great wonders (Temples to greek gods) by first having to build an amount of shrines ( wich are restricted due to needed resources) to that god is also very great, plus the auto produced special units.

    - the late ability for colonists ( settlers) is a bit anoying though, it takes quite a while to research the thech tree with that limited amount of cities.

    maybe the palace (in addition with greeks ressource) could produce a colonist from the start but only every 50 or more turns.
    so you will really have a goal to early explore the world and you`ll be able to get to new ressources, wich leads me to another thing

    - there is no sea trade building?! I´ve checked in the editor but found none :sad:
    maybe some sort of colony-harbour building going along with colonization tech, to enable seatrade would be good?
    you must have special reasons to not include a seatrade option, but well trade is something of great importance, colonies were founded not only to deal with overpopulation but also to gain new materials.

    i`m currently playing as corinth with no additons or test cheats and will report how it goes when i come to the first 100 turns.

    turns lead me to the TIME between turns ;)
    as was already mentioned by Virote, the turn times are a lil pain...
    my machine isn`t the newest but not that old either..

    in the gbeginning the time between turns was 1-2 mins... later it came to 3-4 mins...
    i guess specially huge india and persia have so many cheap worriro units by turn 100+- that they alone need almost 2 mins each :mad:

    of virotes sugestions how to deal with the problem i would pick the pop cost solution.

    making the first units more expansiv and maybe adding a 1-2 pop cost could solve at least part of the turn-time problem
    and additionally they could criple the evolving of the larger empires a bit, for it will be though to keep up with reserach and military when you play a 4 city nation against a 20-30 city nation.

    the pop cost thing could be restriced to the bigger starting civs like persia india and egypt, for the smaller civs have enough trouble keeping up as i mentioned before.

    when corinth makes it`s first attempts to opress it`s neighbours i`ll wirte more ;)
     
  2. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    Oh! A playtester ;)

    Glad you're (mostly) enjoying it!

    I'm quite fond of the map, myself. It used to be much more realistic, but I switched to this map last year, and haven't really looked back since.


    Could you give me some help here? :)

    Silver added in Laurium (I thought that was there already...:blush: )
    No where to put the Silver in Cyprus, unless I deleted either the Iron or the Goats. (I may do the later...)

    The map itself was made for Keroro's Alexander the Great scenario (also available for testing, I might add!)

    This scenario stretches to Alexanders death, so you're supposed to be able to take hold of these far-flung regions.

    This is semi-intended, as it makes traveling through the sea tiles more appealing (as they, of course, have a small chance of sinking). How would an earlier privateer-type unit deal with this, do you think?

    Sorry about that! I seem to have forgotten to include any such splashes for all the improvements in the Peloponnesian League tech tree :blush:. I'll come up with a fix shortly. To help, please can you post your pediaicons file? (Because mine has been changed, and may reference files which are not yet in the Alpha). :)

    I think I put a disclaimer on the first page stating that only one tree has been finished, and the civs who are finished. Sorry to hear about the disappointment. However, you will be pleased to hear that Athens are low down in the queue to have their various updates, so you should be able to play with them fairly soon (a couple of months at the latest)

    Fine by me. Just rember, that you may wish to save the .biq under a slightly different name, in case I release an emergency update (which will not be happening ATM until I get Scythia, and possibly the Celts, out)

    In fact, if you can upload this corrected pedia, I may just be able to link to it until I get the next update out :)

    I'm going to be placing capturable flag, Hero and God units under some of them, to make them even more special :)

    Of course, I will be adding much of this stuff later, as I want to focus more on getting the actual civs working, first.

    Thanks. I often find the auto-produced units to be especially useful. Just prior to release, when the Shrines did not need resources in the radius, and the units were spawned even more frequently, I had entire armies of these units :crazyeye:

    I put the settlers so late, because a) this was when the Greeks first started truly expanding, and b) because it keeps the number of cities smaller, and thus turn times, too.

    However, I may yet add in (very pop. intensive) early settlers, because I'm finding that the AI cities are just too populous, and they therefore have too much production, with which they can mainly only build warriors, so they end up with tonnes of the buggers! This then makes the turn times just as bad as they would be with Settlers and even more limiting terrain boundaries...

    There is a very good reason for the lack of sea trade. Sea trade increases turn times a LOT, and since the map is fairly big, with a lot of coastal cities, the turn times would stack right up with it on. Turning off sea and air trade are two of the biggest turn-time savers you can get.


    I'll be pleased to see how this turns out :)

    I seem to suffer about 5-10min turn times myself, although I tend to get very, very impatient, and thus switch to Minesweeper, or Firefox, which probably makes them longer. As stated previously in this post, I'm having a constant battle with turn times, which is relatively un-avoidable, with such a large map and so many civs. These turn times are, IMO, the lesser of the two evils, though...


    I dislike this solution, myself, as I had used it previously, and it crippled EVERYONE, even with the minimum population cost.

    However, you may be pleased to know, that I'm already testing a method of keeping the larger starting empires (Persia, India, Babylon, Sheba, Egypt) from being too powerful; I'm giving them a large number of free units right off the bat (for example, Persia+India gain around 60), BUT this number decreases y -1 for each city that the civ holds! This means, that these 5 empires are all paying a small amount of unit support a turn, from the very first turn. And as they take more cities, instead of the "snowball effect" giving them better unit support, it cripples them further!

    I'm looking forward to it! :)
     
  3. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    ah, i was mixed up in my mind, asking myself for what purpuse this extreamly big undia civ was in there :crazyeye:

    but right! till alexanders death as you said before, so a strong indian civ is needed indeed to have quite some enemy when you try to capture the indus province.

    the ship problem:
    the problem is that i got several times stuck, like in the adria or at the egyptian coast, leaving no way to go back or forth due to AI ships blocking that narrow coast passage. i had to abondon ships there :sad:

    while beein on exporation this might add to the feeling, dangerous travels having to abandon ships :)
    but later when beeing at war and ships from nation X block youre way to conquer nation Y this will get more than anoying.

    - an earlier privateer would solve some of it i think, but i`d recomend some more sea tiles between coast and ocean, only where the dividing ocean effect would not be harmed.

    View attachment PediaIcons.txt
    heres the pedia, i`ve added the 2 missing wonder splashes myself just copying another splash so i could play on :D

    the mythological beasts:
    honestly, i can`t wait for that :D like having real quests, helping gods and freeing pricesess and stuff!
    that will be awesome!!! :goodjob: :goodjob:


    for now the apperance ratio for units seems to be ok maye should be just a tip higher, i`m currently at turn 117 (corinth) and got 3 amazon and 4 heroic warriors plus a ghost :cool: and an hero unit (Jason, who wonders where that golden fleece might be :D)

    hm, thinking on history the late ability to have colonists sounds right, but i fear they come relly quite late, at turn 117 now i still have to go for 5 techs to get out the dark ages, wich may take ~30 turns.
    to get to colonziation (3 techs) maybe another 40 ( more expensive techs in 2nd eara)
    but! getting to code of law for the lycurgus reform ( that enables the setller building) is then still 7 techs away wich may last another 90 some turns?!

    so i will be colonizing not really before the 600s BC wich would in time be ok, but still there is something missing :sad:
    it`s a personal way, but i really love settling ;)
    and well what to do for so many turns? always playing war will get a bit boring :mischief:

    but i`d restict them to the minor civs only, if india has such ability they would settle everywhere befor a small civ like corinth gets to its first settler ( specially since it has only max pop 6 cities) so you might want to restrict that eary settler ability to special civs as well? :)

    popcost units:
    well the AI isn`t really smart, so i already thought that extended use of popcost units won`t go :(
    that other idea sounds really good but will need quite a bit playtesting, so india doesn`t end up with lots of cities but almost no units to defend them:lol:
    but it could really do the trick, as long as they still go for some research.

    hm i tend to rearrange the biq file during the turntime :D
    replacing cities, making the coastline a bit more realistic and stuff.
    it is still anoying to wait so long, but at least i can check more of what`s to come and plan.

    i`d gladly help with city placements, and i`ll check for special resource locations if i come upon some.
    i`ve already changed quite a bit to my working-biq, adding some more towns replacing others and stuff.

    along with this i have a few questions:

    - will all civs be playabale in the end?
    - is there a reason for the quite diffrent city numbers ( like sparta having 3 but athens having 6?)
    - why are those "tribes" ressources like greeks italians etc. placed on every map square, wouldn`t some in the according region do?
    - did you think about replacing Pontus by Kolchis? for kolchis would be the historic correct pick, beeing an idependent kingdom during the greek times, while pontus is more a creation after alexanders death. plus klochis is the more "mythological" choice.

    so far my corinth game works pretty well, the auto produced units and some doric horseman captured all of argos for me.
    but since they have no tech tree yet they were an easy prey.
    one thing difficult:
    -getting the research rate and the tax income balanced.
    i can`t afford a large army, since i constantly lack of money, and i won`t cripe my research rate for it :sad:
    ok i have lots of buliding maintenance to pay ( 50g/turn) :cool: but i need all of them :D

    i will start a war with elis soon i guess to see how my army works against a finished civ.
     
  4. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    Yeah, that's right :)



    Thanks :goodjob: . I'll DL it and include the other required splashes (there are still quite a few :()

    That was the idea. The scenario has been strongly influenced by a game called "Master of Olympus- Zeus", where you find gods, heroes and monsters roaming about the map, and have to help them partake quests to further the game. If you ever feel like playing a non-civ game, I can fully recommend it to you!



    I see what you mean. I'll have a tinker with the spawn times.

    Who did you gain Jason from?


    The Dark Ages are supposed to be quite slow, as you're supposed to last in them until around about 800BC (so, you're going a little fast, but not too fast). I hope things will start to speed up a little in the Archaic era...

    I'm thinking of adding a really expensive Settler earlier, to represent the slightly earlier colonization of Ionia.

    I guess I should get around to putting a couple of Quests in to keep the player occupied...


    I agree with this, what I may do is increase the pop. of workers to 2 for the larger civs, and give expensive settlers to smaller ones, thus crippling the larger ones who need to pay more for their workers, and protecting the smaller ones, who gain Settlers, but at a large cost.


    Yeah. I think I need to hamper the larger civs in the early game quite a lot.


    I'll be happy to see what you have come up with :)


    Yes, every civ will be playable, with their own functioning tech tree, and intended victory condition.

    Really, most of the city placements were given on the basis of where I wanted a civ to opperate. The smallest civs generally only have a few cities in one key location, and the small-medium sized civs are a lot more spread out, in general, with maybe one or two "core" productive areas.

    I guess I should try to find more places to give Sparta specifically some starting cities, although it is intended that they take over Messenia, and thus have a very large, resource-rich core.

    The less of them I have about, the more likely it becomes that the AI is just going to plonk their cities on a tribe-free tile, and thus miss out on the units and improvements that the city should be building, instead churning out "generic units".

    Nah, I like the stretch of land which Pontus occupies, and also the fact that I can give them Amazon units at the start :)groucho:). Kolchis can already be represented by Thrace, due to the Cimmerians (who were most likely Thracian) living in their lands. (I may not have done this yet in the released version, I can't remember, but currently, those lands are controlled by Thrace).

    How many stacks of warriors of doom did they have? Not that a human can't outsmart them ;)

    There are many commerce-producing improvements and wonders available to Corinth at a later date. For example, if you research "Trade" first, to get to "Colonization", you'll be able to build an Agora in your cities with Marketplaces already in them.

    I'm not sure small old Elis would be a great example of a finished civ :lol:

    Have fun!

    EDIT:
     
  5. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    OK, uploaded a pediaicons fix with all of the splashes added. The additional ones that CivChris did not include all use a generic splash.
     
  6. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    :D i have that game, along with pharao/cleo and RotMK/Emperor as well, i have children of the nile too, but my machine just won`t work it :mad:
    i really love citybuilding, though i always find something "larger" missing and switch back to civ or europa universalis and stuff :)

    the spawn times should be set higher :sad:
    in the beginning it`s great but by now having more and more shrines it gets a bit crowded... 870BC 8 heroics and 4 amazon ( 2 ghosts i lost to elis doric archers) by now i could cut half through greece with only those units i guess :eek:

    i got jason from a short battle with athens, who declared war at me because i won`t give them any gold ( i get constantly threatned by numerous nations to send them gold:confused: )
    when athens moved one of their greek warriors near megara i killed him with a doric horesman and got Jason.

    that works perfect so far, it`ll be ~850 when i get to archaic eara and i really pushed the research.


    expensive settlers for minor civs and 2 pop workers for the big ones sounds fairly great to me.
    i`ll be also happy to test with the "more cities-lesser unit support" thing, for i think that might really work out fine.

    since it`s just an alpha i didn`t expect all perfectly represented, i was just asking how many cities roughly because i have sort of "filled up" greece with cities ending with 4-5 cities for each civ there and wated to know if that would be ok :)

    hm i`ll ceck when your map comes out then, it was just an idea because there was a kolchean kingdom before and after the cimmeran invasion (~800)
    from the 6th century on the kolchean kingdom was famous for it`s slavetrade and military strength. they kept their independence from persia all the time.
    pontus itself was only established ~300 while the greek harbour cities (now pontus) were more or less subs to the persian empire, or part of kolchis, wich was finally conquered by pontus.
    the amazons could also be part of Kolchis since they are legendary located in sarmartia just north to Kolchis.

    but :) it`s of course up to you wich civs to include i was just thinking about it.


    as for the war with argos...
    it was easy they had not more than 3-4 units in each city (even argos istelf had only 4) the only trouble was waiting for matineia to grow so it wouln`t be destroyed.

    war with elis....

    was easy as well, it took me 2 turns, although they had more units like 5-6 per city doric archers (2 deff), but the heros with the blitz plus amazons and horesmen, elis hadn`t a chance.
    that`s why i think the autoproduced units should be reduced.
    i hoped that elis was further with the tech and would have better units...

    for now corinth rules half the pelepones and i fear no one will stand against me :king:
    i`ll leave sparta and messene so they can evolve more and turn on them later to see if they have sufficient military to opose me by then...

    ah wonders, i was able to build the illad and odyssey, right now the pan helenic temple is beeing erected in corinth, megara got the artemis temple, and apollo will get his sanctuary in megara as well next to his twin sister.
    athenae gets her sanctuary in Troezen (historic the athenans once evacuated to that city so athenae will feel at home there too.)

    one more bug i observed, but have no solution for :confused:
    - the game crashes without report when you rightclick some city improvments in the cityview.
    like shrine to zeus, i can check it in the civpedia but when i click it in city view the game crashes.

    :lol:" align="" border="0" />
     
  7. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    oh and i forgot :)

    hm :( din´t know that seatrade takes up so much of the time, i just wondered how to get luxurys and stuff distributed without sea trade.

    and another question on the map :mischief:

    how about reducing and replacing crete?
    since the greek mainland is of another map as well, i would like to make crete a bit smaller and place it a bit more left and by this include some more islands, like thera.

    if you allow i`ll post that reworked biq and you could check from it what you want to use or what you would change further or back again. :)
     
  8. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I know what you mean there!


    Will setting the Offense of the units lower by a point or two help at all? They are pretty powerful...

    That's a normal civ thing. I find it funniest when Babylon threaten me (playing as a Greek civ), as they tend not to build any ships! (at least in the Mediterranean...), and thus end up staying put. Egypt, on the other hand... :scared:

    Haha! Did they put up much of a fight over Megara?

    Nice. Hopefully, you'll reach the Classical Era a quite early (it is supposed to end around the 500's-400's somewhere), too.

    That's good to hear :)


    Fine by me. Tell me how it pans out!


    I'll think about it.

    I was under the impression that Kolchian power waned before the start of this scenario.


    Oh, the does keep small amounts of units actually protecting its cities. I just thought you may have seen large stacks roaming around the countryside.

    Yes, unfortunately, Elis are going to be rather weak compared to the other Peloponnese civs. I may have to increase their cities, or something, to give them a leg up. The same with Messenia (for who I'll look elsewhere to give them a city, so although you can rid them from the Peloponnese, they'll still be lingering around)

    Hopefully Sparta and Thebes will be able to give you a challenge ;)

    You could also try a suicide run against the Persians, or something. The large size of their empire may help you for a short while, but when their stacks start arriving in the right place at the right time...

    You're lucky to get the Iliad. In my games, Western Greece always get it (I guess they're visited by Odysseus on his way home, or something...)

    The Pan-Hellenic temple will b extremely useful. Good luck building it. You are lucky that only Greek powers can build it; I'd hate to see what would happen if Babylon or Egypt could start building it :lol:

    I'm sorry, I can't help you there. I myself do not know what causes the problem :( I've had it pretty much since the mod was started...

    I guess to avoid it, you'll have to just try to not right-click any of the improvements...
     
  9. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    This is the best sized Crete I could find. It is from the same map as Southern Greece. Every other Crete was too small for my needs :)

    Feel free to post any reworked .biqs, and I'll try to take a look at them :goodjob:
     
  10. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    hm reducing the heroics attack, might work as well, as well setting their spawning time higher.

    the 4 attack points maybe reduced to 2 for the heroic warriors (got 9 now) and 3 for the amazons (got 5 now) still the rate should be set a bit higher, the more cities you get with these good units the more shrines you can build to even get more of them...

    plus the better defence units are more or less at the end of the dark age tech tree. wich makes those heroic units really powerful and
    since the ai won`t build so many shrines and stuff the human player has to much advantage of those spawned units.

    -ah whats with this pepeponesian king unit? you can have with militarism but you need hidden railroads wich can`t be researched?

    no there were only those few units and 2 warriors heading for one of my cities, when i took argos there was at least 1 ship inside, and i fear that they build tons of ships instead of land units.
    what leads me to this is a war i had with ionia, they never landed a unit but had maybe 10-15 ships roaming my coasts.

    i was lucky indeed!
    i had storytelling and was researching half way to sailing ( to opose those ionian boats) when i got informed that lydia is building the iliad.
    i skiped to poetry and after choose Troezen where i was building a city palace, took ~13 more turns to finish the iliad but i was first :D


    as said i will wait for sparta to evolve before i go for them. maybe the ai just needs some more time. for now they still only have doric archers wandering around.


    oh and my tax income became much better since i conquered elis as well .)
    i`m back on 50% research and still making +8g/t.
     
  11. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I'll work on these in a bit. Considering the Scythian stats that I am working with now, they have a very powerful Attack and Defense...


    Sorry, my fault. If you want to use them, go into the .biq and take away the "coal" resource requirement for the two upgrades :sad:

    I've had many a fun game trying to fend of the Ionian navy. The best was when I was simultaneously at war with Athens and Ionia, who both had massive navies, compared to me, who was playing as Thebes, with a much less than desirable navy. I ended up "island hopping" to Samos, taking it in a turn with my amphibious units, and then moving around to the coast of Ionia, and taking the Anatolian cities. Unfortunately, I couldn't manage to take Rhodes, nor any Athenian cities...

    I'm actually quite glad the civs are building huge armadas of ships. It has turned naval combat from an avoidable and pointlessly expensive past time, into something which seriously needs considering.

    When you get to the Classical Era, could you tell me how effective the Allied Trireme is? I have a horrible feeling that it may be too weak...

    Lydia, eh? They've never built it in any of my games.

    How did you find your war against the Ionian boats? Was it manageable? As I stated above, I found it almost impossible. There was surely no chance of any form of open-sea conflict which I could have won... (At one point, my entire fleet was decimated by Ionia outside Samos, and another, my fleet stacked with fresh recruits for taking Lemnos from Athens got cornered in the open between Athens and Ionia :cry: )

    That does sound quite slow... I think I'll look for better commerce-producing resources to put near Sparta...

    Cool! Who do you think your eyes will set on next? Perhaps those Barbarians to the North need subduing? ;)
     
  12. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    ok here comes the biq, i`ve made some minor and some bigger changes.

    - got more cities to the smaler civs, now most have at least 4 cities

    sparta now owns all of laconia with 5 cities making them the major land power, messene and elis have 4 each along with most other civs.
    i gave byzantion to corinth for it was a megaran colony and moved korcyra to a better fiting spot, now corinth, athens and sparta each have 5 cities representing their power.

    if mesene needs another city, as you said because of the rivality with sparta, i`d recomed giving them a colony in italy, maybe rhegium (at the tip of the boot.

    thrake has now also olynth on the calkidic peninsula, and perperikon, wich was their major religous center and also a famous oracle

    ionia is almost completly rearanged, moved all cities to more realistic spots and the islands as well.

    - replaced some cities to better match historic accurancy

    - changed the coastlines a bit, so they still fit with the erasto map but look now a bit more natural

    - made the bosporus open for ships, i think this would do good since many greek colonys were placed around the black sea.
    it will keep persia from entering greece to early and
    since the transport ships have real high capacity later on i think this will be sufficient for persian/greek warfare.

    - for now i`ve changed crete ( but can go back to the previous version)

    - by changing crete i made room for the aegaian islands of melos, naxos paros and thera.

    - added some rivers so the minor civs will at least get 1 city that grows over pop6, for the to come expansive settler units.

    View attachment DoricGreece2WORK.zip
     
  13. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    well maybe the heroic units should keep their stats just be spawned at a higher rate, for now i can only say that they are too many and thus too powerful, BUT! many civs don`t have the right tech tree by now and can´t produce usable units... so it might level when it`s all finished.


    as for the navys.... i tried with the doric warships for a while but gave up on that cause the always send reinfocements
    there were just too many ionian ships in the end and since they din`t land any troops i left them their precious sea rule :D

    i see the point, with all those naval units you`ll be forced to have a real navy yourself:) hm maybe i`ll start some overseas invasion to see how that works out.

    but i fear that it`ll be fruitless, they have 10-20 ships and i just can`t afford a navy that would hold against them, that is ... with the warhsip 3/3 i might manage at least a usable invasion on some islands.


    ah another thing...

    - the panhelenic temple gave me a golden age.... wich is quite early in the ~860s maybe a number of needed temples should be set higher? so only later when you got more cities you can build it? but it should be restriced for lydia for they already have so many cities.
    or take the golden age away from that already very powerful wonder.
     
  14. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    Thanks. I'm in the process of adding many of these changes now! :goodjob:

    I've added/altered most of these.

    Byzantium will remain Athenian, because I want it to be the launchpad of their operations in the locality. I guess I could give them a different city in the region, though...

    I may do this, I'll see how things go with Messenia.

    Added, along with an "Oracle" resource, and an "Incense" resource :king:


    Done much of this!

    I've changed some of them around.

    Changed alot of the coastlines to match yours, too!

    I'm not going to do this, because it makes controlling Byzantium (and thus the Bosporus) MUCH more important. It used to be open, but when any old ship can float in and out, it makes the city a little... pointless...

    Persia usually do not come through Byzantium, at least I have never seen them come through here... Your testing may show differing results, though :)

    The Greek colonies in the region can currently be represented through a mix between Pontus and the Bosporan Kingdom ("colonies" themselves, anyway!), as well as Athens, or whoever controls Byzantium. Civs can also settle around the black sea via land (although I should probably do something about that...)

    I live your version :)

    I'll be adding them in, although they'll probably look a lot more distorted, since I've increased the size of Delos un-naturally, to give more resources.

    I don't think I'll do this too much; part of the challenge is finding water to irrigate :)


    I'll delay them a little for now, and decrease their strength.

    :lol: I know how you feel. I'm too used to the usual civ method of building a couple of ships to transport your troops and leaving it at that, with maybe a couple more ships for fun...

    Good luck with that! Your massed Heroic Warriors will be priceless, as you'll want to dash right from port to port ;)

    Just keep silently massing warships. Eventually, the unit support costs will have to hit one of you first (most likely them). In a sense, it's like the cold war...


    I guess that is bad news, but it does require 8 temples already! And it could always be counted as a negative side effect :mischief:

    I may give it a higher cost, and raise the temple limit to 12.

    Thanks for helping :thumbsup:
     
  15. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    i`m glad you liked some of the changes :)

    no naval wars yet i`m still building up forces :p
    but some minor things..

    - i got to the archaic age ~ 854BC so thats fine i guess

    - i got more and more temple small wonders giving, i fear, to much benefits out :( of course this is due to the capture of argos and elis so i`m not shure if that needs any changes for now.
    i just wanted you to know that the peleponesos may be a bit too stuffed with resources/ or resources that can be used by more than 1 city.
    maybe rearanging some of them would force a civ to search or fight for better places, thus making colonization on good spots even more apealing.
    for now in my 820s BC i have already:
    temples: zeus, dionysos, demeter, athenae, artemis, apollo
    got the iliad the pan helenic temple the hecate(ghost) shrine, menelaos shrine, heros shrine
    right now i`m building zeus statue and can build temple of aphrodite (city grow3) wich i will delay since corinth has no city grow2 by now :sad:
    to have ares and hephaistos temples i still need one more city with iron resource (having only olympia and matineia for now)

    so you see although reduced to only the peleponesos i`m able to have almost all wonders giving me numerous benefits like several 1 or 2 people happy throughout the empire and stuff.

    - i see the point in not having rivers everywhere, but since a expensive settler unit is planed i think each smaller civ should at least get 1 city beyond size 6, or at least those civs leading in colonization ;)
    as playing corinth i had none city over 6 until i captured the north one from argos... messene has no city to grow big, but sparta has 2 ( an sparta being more a landpower had only 1! colony in it`s history)

    - pollution :mad:i hate it ;) maybe a slight decrease, or earlyer polution fighting buildings would do nice, i got polution few turns in various cities and by now all 11 workers are set to that task in various locations... work and potteryshops can`t make that much dirt :D (i know they diminished whole forests and stuff for their productions, but a lil less dirt would do as well i think)

    - pollution on mountains or HELP!my goats need a wash, i`ve checked through the editor and found only the arab worker able to enter mountain, since mointain terrain is not checked to build roads on it could that be changed? OR since you get that satyric worker by dionysos temple maybe make him enter mountans and able to clean up that dirt.

    -i`m currently on my way to aristocaty and next will be code of laws, its 827 and in about 25 turns i will be able to build colonists, somehow the achean eary gets researched much fast than the dark ages and i guess i`ll be trhough with it in about 100 or most 150 turns, maybe some techs need to be a bit more expansive there, but i`ll check on that wehen i come to the 3rd eara. the classic eara should maybe come around 500BC, but not that much earlier.

    - just to state: by now
    9 amazon warriors
    4 amazon princesess
    2 satyrs
    18! heroic warriors
    plus jason

    - ah something of real interest! persia had war with babylonia, i don`t know how much perisa captured but the babylonian capital is petra now and gaza samaria and jerusalem belong to persia (since i can´t trade maps by now i don´t know how the rest looks)

    -and! i got emassys, thus checking what those civs build...

    -ionia has maybe 20 ships intheir capital alone
    -parta is quite developed in buildings, having some shrines, they must have heroic warriros by now and they deffenetly have satyrs!
    -athens has only 3 units in the capital, but seem to send ships frequently to someplace
    -thebes has at least some shrines build , but still only has a warrior and that cheif unit guarding the capital.
    -messene has maybe 30 greek warriors in the capital, so i don`t think sparta will ever go for them
    -phoenicia is doing quite good giving me a cultural rival and building ships and land units
    -egypt seems to build only ships (they have about 20 in their capital down the nile) maybe making the nile not sailable that far south would give them some landpower. on the other hand they are supposed to fall to persia and later easily to alexander.

    so some civs do really fine, others are just really cripeled somehow...
    i can´t wait until maps can be traded to see how india and persia are doing...
     
  16. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    as the turn time is now by 6-7 mins...
    i came upon a solution for this:

    i really think that melos, paros, naxos and thera very useful they were major cities also colonizing.
    so i looked at the map and thought about the resource problem for delos and
    if you place a singe tile plains left of delos to conect those 2 islands, it`ll still look like islands somehow.
    to name Andros(hill with cyclopus) teneos (graslandon that previous hill)
    syros ( the "connecting" plain tile) delos istelf and Mykonos (the hill next to delos.

    you`ll get 4 spots to place resources plus the greek ressource under delos.
    and it`ll still look kinda natural :)

    edit:

    forgot to mention, by placing another plain between naxos and paros and changing the uper grasland of paros to plain as well, you get a sufficient looking connection between those as well
    although i think that both cities should be represented, the ai won`t settle both island..

    as for melos... moving the plain island above it 1 tile down left would give it more space and look natrual as well.

    hm best say it not with words ;)
    heres a pic of what i tried to describe..
    img_000_640AD.jpg
     
  17. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    Thanks for making them :)

    Great to hear!

    I'll think about it, although I don't want it to damage the AI...

    I see. Well, now that most civs start with more cities, I can increase the # of cities required for a temple, too.


    Again, I'll think about it.

    I hate pollution too; that's why there are so many pollution producing improvements :lol:

    However, I may take pollution away from a couple, like the Pottery Shop and Workshop.

    I'll give capturable Barbarian workers to various locations of the map, that will not be wheeled. Until then, you may as well just try to ignore Mountains :(

    500BC sounds about perfect :)

    Haha! That's a lot! Why don't you send a couple off through Persia and on to the Great Steppe? There are a couple of surprises (well, monsters) waiting there to be killed ;)

    Nice! In the new version, Persia would likely get crippled before it can get that far, and have its units disband on itself!

    Good and good! I have seen the AI building Shrines, also. Unfortunately, they do not build them often enough :(

    Yeah, the AI tend to keep real small amounts of units in their capitals. That's why I have given the Peloponnesian League civs so many immobile unit-spawning improvements/wonders.

    Haha! Things are going good for them!

    I'm not to bothered with Egypt building too many ships; it sure gives me a fright to see masses of Egyptian Galleys coming down my shore!


    I know what you mean. If you have enough money, you may find it in your interests to "steal world map" from Persia ;)
     
  18. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    Thanks. Changes made :)
     
  19. CivChris

    CivChris Chieftain

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    well all things speed up the futher i get, unlucky the turntime only gets longer and longer :eek:

    -with oligarchy government my research rate exploded sort of...
    plus the zeus staue and hostiry wonders gave me 4 free techs

    -with the agoras i get so much money i don`t know where to put :)

    -i upgraded my whole fleet and all units, due to dualkingship it almost cost me nothing

    -the auto pruduce units now really CROWD my lands

    heres a list of the desater ;)
    19 amazon warriors
    7 satyrs
    2 kourete
    9 amazon princesses
    1 cyclops ( this is really kewl althoiugh not shipable :sad: )
    27 heroic warriors
    3 satyr workers
    9 militia hoplites
    23 city rabbles, theres a bug cause they all call themself king periander, must be because they have the king ability checked.

    plus around 90 units i have builded myself mostly ships and peleponese spearmans.

    so all apearance rates should be really set much higher specially the city rabbles one...

    -i`m settling everywhere i can find a nice spot
    the 3 pop cost is no big deal, even with most cities only at size 6, the shield cost is quite low ( takes normally 4 turns to build)

    - here comes again the seablocking problem... ionia as well as magna graecia ( who have no land units! only ships protecting their cities) block many searoutes with more than a dozen ships in one spot. even privateers won`t
    help there out. and sailing sea squares kills your units everytime... (lost a full maned corinthan galley with 2 settlers that way) i think at least at key positions you could add some sea tiles so there is a solution to go around the blockade.
    on the other hand why is the ai placing hordes of ships just on useless spots on the map?

    - since magna graecia blocked my way to the whole western med, i sailed near taras and send my colonists on land to fould neapolis and poseidonia on the tyrrhenian sea. then first builded a italian galley and now go for corsica and sardinia.

    - as i set out so settle i had to declare war on athens because they blocked the searoute to the agais. i took all attika in 3 turns with the heroics and delos as well.
    i did send out my, by then war galley fleet but they did not attack any of my ships.. only when i left a corinthan galley out they came for it.
    so the weak ai greek galleys won´t attack such supiriour ships like the war galley.... so no naval war for now :(

    - my cities are big and prosperous, have almost everything builded in them and due to so less corruption i make tons of money...

    in short corinth has become super power.... BUT! its only 790BC

    and worst of all

    - i just entered the classic era :( wich i find at least 250 years too early, as it goes now the tech tree will be finished before 600BC.

    the reason is simple the techs are rather cheap by now, my cities have almost no corupption and due to all those "happy" wonders i don`t even need to set out entertrainment, still i`m making gold with 70% research.

    -i would sugest to give a turn limit for research time,
    maybe 10 to 12 turns minimum

    with 12 turns the
    dark ages could be over ~ 800BC
    archaic could end ~ 550BC
    BUT! the classic would end in 220BC since the classic eara has the most techs..
    that could be solved by doubling the turn time for the classic making 1 turn 1/2 year (if that is possible) so the tech tree would
    end up around 390 BC finally, plus the player gets more time in the actual classic period itself.

    another way would be to drastically increase the tech costs for the archaic period,
    or somehow set corruption higher without cripling far off colonys to much...

    i think i`ll do as you sugested and send stacks of my units to the north or maybe against persia for now.. nothing much more to do with them :sad:
     
  20. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    How long you waiting now?

    I could raise the tech cost by 20 per tech in the Archaic Era and beyond to settle this...

    I do not know what to do here. Maybe I should use my cripple-large-empires strategy for most governments? Of course, it will be really bad for the bigger empires, and bearable for the smaller ones. I really don't know what else to do here :(

    That is an advantage to the Dual Kingship!

    I see the problem. I'll have to crank the spawn times up and lower their stats ;)

    However, I'll be keeping the Rabble stats mostly the same; they are supposed to give the AI a "leg up", to help offset the fact that they leave their cities almost completely unprotected...


    The cost of the Settlers will be raked right up! ;)


    I've added a lot more sea lanes in the Med and Black Sea, increased the Coastal movement cost to 2, and balanced it out a bit more by increasing all naval movement by 2. This means that, although Sea tiles are more dangerous, they are likely to be less cluttered (the AI won't put its units at risk of sinking for anything), and you can move a lot further through them, there is still the risk that you will sink.

    Two reasons:
    1. To block off sea channels
    2. Because it cannot access the particular sea square which it would otherwise move to.

    It is more likely to be #1.


    I'm glad that that one worked out for you :)

    I definitely need to make the Heroic Warriors less powerful...

    Don't they have any stray galleys which you can attack?


    Again, I'll rack up later tech costs. :)


    I didn't realize the minimum turn time was set to one :blush:

    I'll set it to 8, I think.

    I hate corruption :mad:

    However, it will make the corruption-reducing citizens more useful, so think I'll do it!

    I've also just found out that I hadn't set the "world sizes" to anything uniform like I had in previous versions. This may be part of your corruption/tech rate woes, if the last random map you had played on was a smallish one.

    Thanks for your feedback!

    Out of interest, what difficulty level do you usually play?
     

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