Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

[Vokarya]

Is there a way that a building definition can get called outside of Civ4BuildingInfos.xml?

Here is what I want to accomplish: there are over 40 building definitions in Civ4ArtDefines_Buildings.xml that are not called by any building in the BuildingInfos.xml file. I'd like to take them out completely, not even leaving them behind as commented-out (commented-out stuff still causes me some problems when I look at the mod code). These are all left over from buildings that used to be in the mod, but have since been removed. I think the bar has been set very high for new buildings and we aren't going to need any of these old definitions. If we do, we can always pull an old copy of the art definitions from the SVN. I am just concerned about a repeat of the problem we had when I took out the SIEGE_TOWER definition, because it was used in a very strange way for combat animations. I checked the entire mod, the sources file, and the BTS art definitions to see if these art definitions were used, and it doesn't seem like they are. I would like to know if I missed anything.

 

[<Nexus>]

Priest specialist slots almost directly correlate with religion spread rather than era. You get 1 Temple and its Priest specialist slot per religion, plus 1 for Scriptorium once you have any religion. Cathedrals give 2 Priest slots but are restricted to 1 Cathedral per X Temples which are scaled by game size without scaling the number of Priest slots, so it winds up averaging to less than 1 slot per city. I think you would have enough religions by the end of the Renaissance to have an equal Priest specialist count compared to other specialists.

I was wondering that the mechanic of Cathedrals/X.Temples scaling by map size is really good for us?
Wouldn't it be better and easier to balance things if X was always 3(or 4 or...) on all map sizes? We could also create building requirements where Building A requires exactly 1 copy of Building B somewhere.
I ques it wouldn't be a hard thing to change.

 

[Vokarya]

I said I've set the bar very high for any new buildings. A new building should fill a niche, be good for a tech with a low trick count, and preferably intersect with existing buildings, either as an upgrade to or from or as a requirement, so that it's not just cluttering building lists.

However, high is not impossible. I have found a new building idea that fits all these criteria: the TV Station.

View attachment 406530
Stats

• Requires Mass Media
• Requires Power
• Requires Broadcast Tower or Communication Tower or Network Node
• Replaces Press Agency
• +25% culture (up from Press Agency's +10%), +20% espionage (equal to Press Agency)
• +15% espionage defense (up from Press Agency's +10%)
• -20% War Weariness (up from Press Agency's -10%)
• 1 Artist slot (bonus)
• +2 happiness with Personality Cult

The Modern Era needs buildings badly. By my count (and this includes some upcoming changes), there are 34 buildings in the Modern Era for 45 techs. The Industrial Era has 72 buildings for 55 techs. Bringing the Modern Era up to parity with the other eras would require 17 more buildings. This is just 1.

The TV Station also fits into a building line, being an upgrade of the Press Agency. It won't clutter the building list in a brand-new city since it needs some infrastructure (Power and a Broadcast Tower or upgrade) to build.

Also, the TV Station benefits the Mass Media tech. Mass Media has 4.5 tricks, but the big 4 are all one-shot; National Sports League, National TV-Station, UN Mission, and World News Network are all National Wonders or World Wonders. Only the +2C from Town is more spread out. This would give you something else that all cities can benefit from.

There are some other building changes to help accommodate the bonuses from TV Station.

• Convention Center is reduced to +25% culture and gains 1 Merchant slot.
• Food Processing Plant loses 1 Merchant slot.
• Communication Tower, Network Node lose 1 Artist slot.

And a couple of changes to existing Wonders to work with TV Station.

• National TV-Station is renamed National TV Network and requires TV Stations to build (same quantity as Theatres for Globe Theatre).
• World News Network requires TV Station to build and provides free TV Stations. Like Great Firewall, this ability benefits established cities, although WNN does have other bonuses as well.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is another change I think we need to do. Shanty Town needs to be moved to Feudalism, because it requires the Feudal civic. There isn't any way to get to the Feudal civic without the Feudal tech, and it doesn't really mean anything if a civic building is available without its civic. The building can certainly come later (like Pacifism is available at Philosophy, but its civic building is the Peace Movement which doesn't show up until Labor Union), but before is not good. (The only reason I haven't moved Seminary up to Papacy is that it is just barely possible to get State Church early with Shwedagon Paya.)

 

[<Nexus>]

Here is another change I think we need to do. Shanty Town needs to be moved to Feudalism, because it requires the Feudal civic. There isn't any way to get to the Feudal civic without the Feudal tech, and it doesn't really mean anything if a civic building is available without its civic. The building can certainly come later (like Pacifism is available at Philosophy, but its civic building is the Peace Movement which doesn't show up until Labor Union), but before is not good. (The only reason I haven't moved Seminary up to Papacy is that it is just barely possible to get State Church early with Shwedagon Paya.)

Shanty Town with Feudal civic? Isn't it Vassalage (which is fuedal or so in the xml)?
However I totally don't understand what is the connection of ST and Feudal or Vassalage?
In the newest version of my modmod that I haven't published yet I moved it to Chaste (tech and civic both).
I also replaced the flat and bonus with a +1 free specialist.
I think these make more sense.

 

[<Nexus>]

And a couple of changes to existing Wonders to work with TV Station.

• National TV-Station is renamed National TV Network and requires TV Stations to build (same quantity as Theatres for Globe Theatre).
• World News Network requires TV Station to build and provides free TV Stations. Like Great Firewall, this ability benefits established cities, although WNN does have other bonuses as well.

I like all the above, just could we call the National TV Network rather just Television Network? I feel that the mod has already too much nationalism.

An other idea that you may be able to use to get more buildings and trick for techs:
Film Studio (Hit Movie), Record Label (Hit Single) and something for Hit Musicals as well (can't think of any good name)

• these buildings would produce 1 of the associated resource
• can only be built by a Great Artist (someone with talent) or a Great Merchant (someone who discovers not so talented persons but can sell their product )

This way you would get a slight chance to get those resources even without the world wonders producing them but still not available for everyone, since you have to sacrifice a GP.

 

[Arakhor]

I agree. I think that Television Network is a better name.

 

[Vokarya]

Shanty Town with Feudal civic? Isn't it Vassalage (which is fuedal or so in the xml)?
However I totally don't understand what is the connection of ST and Feudal or Vassalage?
In the newest version of my modmod that I haven't published yet I moved it to Chaste (tech and civic both).
I also replaced the flat and bonus with a +1 free specialist.
I think these make more sense.

You are right, Feudal is Estate. Vassalage is Shanty Town. Either way, the building-tech needs to be at least equal to the civic-tech.

Caste does need a civic building, but I don't think I want to mess with Shanty Town just yet.

 

[gay_Aleks]

OK, time to revive this thread....

Polis Council, as it is, currently sucks. The amount of needed to build it aren't warranting the bonuses it gives - very minor maintenance reduction plus +1

I think it should be lowered a good deal

 

[Vokarya]

OK, time to revive this thread....

Polis Council, as it is, currently sucks. The amount of needed to build it aren't warranting the bonuses it gives - very minor maintenance reduction plus +1

I think it should be lowered a good deal

You have a point. It's the same cost as Courthouse, but doesn't give nearly as much. Courthouse gives -25% maintenance, along with +2 espionage, a Magistrate slot, and a Spy slot.

Would 50 base cost (down from 120) be too low? That would be more than cutting the cost in half.

 

[Vokarya]

I also think we need to do something with the Matter Decompiler. It is available very late in the game and its only effects are to produce Power and cancel all unhealth from buildings.

I don't think the power effect is very useful. By this point, you are able to get clean power from Fusion Plant (assuming anyone has built the ITER) and Power Receiver. I'm not sure how effective the health is either, given that Regenerator and Waste Digester cancel 70% of a city's unhealth from population. That gives a lot of room for your other health factors to outweigh any unhealth.

On top of that, building the Matter Decompiler requires building a Utility Fog, which runs the risk of a meltdown. By the end of my games, I usually have one dedicated unit-producing city (West Point, Secret Army Base, National Redoubt, Red Cross) to churn out my ideal defensive units (I've never tried disbanding all my garrisons after conquering the world, and keep them around to suppress revolutions) and that is the only city to get a Fog.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Speaking of meltdowns: I have a question. If for some reason, I have a Nuclear Plant and an Utility Fog running at the same time, do I have a higher chance for meltdown?

 

[Vokarya]

Speaking of meltdowns: I have a question. If for some reason, I have a Nuclear Plant and an Utility Fog running at the same time, do I have a higher chance for meltdown?

I tried to read the source code for a meltdown, and the answer looks like yes. The game loops through each building type for each city, checks to see if the city has the building, checks to see if the building can meltdown, and then does the actual pull-a-random-number to see if the building does meltdown.

 

[Vokarya]

Here's a reskin of an existing building.

I am not completely satisfied with the Town Watch. I feel the name could refer to a building, a unit, a promotion, or even a specialist. Also, it has no building model.

So the rename and reskin that I thought of is Watchtower. I think this is unambiguously a building. It could be an improvement, but I think we don't need any new improvements and the Fort covers this niche.


There are several Watchtower building models that are already in the FPK. They are actually intended as early-era models for Scotland Yard. The City_LSystem allows you to specify what building model will be used based on era and civilization. (Otherwise, you could see a modern skyscraper in the middle of a medieval city.) However, since Scotland Yard is not a Wonder and does not increase defenses, it will not show up in-game unless you modify the global definitions. So these are the art models that I am planning to use.

 

[Vokarya]

I would like to do another round of recalibrating specialists and culling a couple of features off of buildings. The new curve for specialists by era is going to be cut down to 1-2-3-4-6-8-10. It is currently about 1-2-3-4-8-10-12.

I have several reasons for wanting to do this.

• I think I have set the curves too high. In BTS, from buildings alone, you can get 4-7 specialists of each type (not counting Priests; Priests is 1/religion from Temple and 2 per X cities from Cathedral, varying by map size). Artist, Merchant, and Scientist get only 4 slots; I don't think it is a coincidence that these are the types that are unlimited with Caste System. Engineer gets 5 and Spy gets 7. I don't know why Spy should be so high, but it is. AND cities are bigger than BTS cities, but I don't think that people are regularly getting close to the limits. A limit that doesn't really limit you isn't much of a limit to begin with.
• I don't think the number of specialist slots should double during the Industrial Era. Going from 4 to 8 is a lot.
• I also don't think the Renaissance Era should get 7 Artist slots (1 from Theatre, 1 from Jewellery, 1 from Artist Guild, 1 from Art Gallery, 1 from Painter's Studio, and 2 from Opera House). The curve for other specialist types stays at about 4 in the Renaissance.
• I don't like free specific specialists (as opposed to free generic specialists) on non-Unique, non-Wonder buildings or flavored Great Person Points on non-Wonders. The general rule that I have had is that National Wonders, Guilds, and Corporations are worth 1 GPP per turn, and World Wonders are worth 2. The flavors allow you to specialize a city by GP type, and having free specialists on buildings and GPP damages that, at least in my opinion.
• I think removing a few variables from buildings will make them more intuitive to understand. It's easier if you only have to compare one or two stats rather than three or four.
• I haven't mentioned looking at National Wonders yet. These are badly unbalanced. You can get a total of 16 Scientists (plus 2 free ones) and 13 Engineers from National Wonders, but only 2 Spies and absolutely zero Magistrates.

 

[Vokarya]

So first of all, I would like to propose a couple of building links. Another nice thing is that this reduces the number of "orphan" buildings with no ties (upgrade or prerequisite links) to other buildings. The overall effect is to slightly lower the number of buildings that appear on a city's build list at any one time.

Theatre -> Opera House
One way I thought of to reduce the Renaissance Era in Artist slots is to have the Opera House be an upgrade of the Theatre. Then the Theatre's Artist slot doesn't matter anymore. Furthermore, I think that Theatre's happiness from the culture slider could stand to be lowered. We have many more buildings that provide a happiness bonus from culture, so the effect of the culture slider is magnified. Lowering Theatre would make that you have to put real effort into culture to get a bonus. Movie Theatre will also be an upgrade of Theatre, but Movie Theatre will focus on the happiness side rather than the culture side.

So, changes so that Opera House is a proper upgrade of Theatre:

• Opera House is increased to +5 culture (from +3)
• Theatre is reduced to 1 Happiness per 20% culture (was 10%)

Arsenal -> Mech Assembly Plant
To cut down on Engineers, I would like to add Mech Assembly Plant to the Arsenal line.

• Mech Assembly Plant gains +35% unit production (up from Arsenal's +25%).
• Mech Assembly Plant loses 1 Scientist slot. This is part of a general culling of Scientist slots from late-game buildings.
• Mech Assembly Plant is increased to 3 unhealth. I like the idea of military buildings being dangerous.

Art Gallery Redesigned
The Art Gallery is a building that pokes into multiple variables. It provides culture, happiness, GPP, and an Artist slot. It is also actually cheaper than the Artists' Guild (150 vs. 180). I think it should be cut down somewhat.

• Art Gallery requires a Sculptor's Workshop or a Painter's Studio or a Photographer's Studio or an Artists Guild to build. Most of these are available before Art Gallery, but it means you need to build one source of local art before building a gallery.
• Instead of +4 culture, it grants +10% culture. Museum loses its +10% culture and has its base culture increased to +2. Art Gallery and Museum overlap a bit and this makes them a little more differentiated.
• Art Gallery provides no GPP or Artist slot. It still provides +2 happiness and +10% culture, which is enough for a building as cheap as AG.

 

[Rezca]

Those all sound good to me

 

[<Nexus>]

So first of all, I would like to propose a couple of building links. Another nice thing is that this reduces the number of "orphan" buildings with no ties (upgrade or prerequisite links) to other buildings. The overall effect is to slightly lower the number of buildings that appear on a city's build list at any one time.

Theatre -> Opera House
One way I thought of to reduce the Renaissance Era in Artist slots is to have the Opera House be an upgrade of the Theatre. Then the Theatre's Artist slot doesn't matter anymore. Furthermore, I think that Theatre's happiness from the culture slider could stand to be lowered. We have many more buildings that provide a happiness bonus from culture, so the effect of the culture slider is magnified. Lowering Theatre would make that you have to put real effort into culture to get a bonus. Movie Theatre will also be an upgrade of Theatre, but Movie Theatre will focus on the happiness side rather than the culture side.

So, changes so that Opera House is a proper upgrade of Theatre:

• Opera House is increased to +5 culture (from +3)
• Theatre is reduced to 1 Happiness per 20% culture (was 10%)

Cut off the Movie Theater/Holo Theater and make them a different chain. Even removing any artist slots of these are okay, as the artist himself is not present in the building, only on the screen
So Theater/Opera House would be the place for the elite, While MT/HT for the masses.

I like the others, especially the Art Gallery requirements

 

[Arakhor]

Those seem like reasonable adjustments, Vokarya.

 

[Vokarya]

Cut off the Movie Theater/Holo Theater and make them a different chain. Even removing any artist slots of these are okay, as the artist himself is not present in the building, only on the screen
So Theater/Opera House would be the place for the elite, While MT/HT for the masses.

I like the others, especially the Art Gallery requirements

I'm keeping the Theatre/Movie Theatre link. I like having those links a lot. But I will take off the specialist slots. It would only cost you if you hadn't upgraded your Theatres to Opera Houses already.