Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

[Rezca]

Consistently I've seen the International Port building arrive and be largely negative when built in cities - removing quite a bit of gold and generally pushing 2 ~ 3 food loss on it (The red-tinted food icons), among other hits. It replaces quite a few buildings and I'm guessing that the bonuses on the International Port just aren't high enough to compensate for the buildings it's replacing?

Normally, I'd just never ever build it except for possibly in a new city that never had the replaced buildings to begin with, but it's also required to build the Naval Yard so those losses will need to be taken eventually if I wish to construct that in a city.

 

[Samson]

Consistently I've seen the International Port building arrive and be largely negative when built in cities - removing quite a bit of gold and generally pushing 2 ~ 3 food loss on it (The red-tinted food icons), among other hits. It replaces quite a few buildings and I'm guessing that the bonuses on the International Port just aren't high enough to compensate for the buildings it's replacing?

Normally, I'd just never ever build it except for possibly in a new city that never had the replaced buildings to begin with, but it's also required to build the Naval Yard so those losses will need to be taken eventually if I wish to construct that in a city.

Are you sure that it actually causes the commerce loss, rather than relying on the "Actual Effects" in the pop-up? I have reported errors in these actual effects in a number of cases where a building replaces others, and the only way I can decide on the effects of a building is to find a city that has built neither the building itself and the building it replaces and view the actual effects reported there.

 

[Rezca]

Are you sure that it actually causes the commerce loss, rather than relying on the "Actual Effects" in the pop-up? I have reported errors in these actual effects in a number of cases where a building replaces others, and the only way I can decide on the effects of a building is to find a city that has built neither the building itself and the building it replaces and view the actual effects reported there.

I'd have to take a closer look as the few I'm building finish, but the loss of health/food certainly does seem to happen at the very least.

 

[Samson]

I'd have to take a closer look as the few I'm building finish, but the loss of health/food certainly does seem to happen at the very least.

The errors I have seen are always under reporting on the financial implications of the upgrade, sometimes reporting what is actually a gain to be a loss.

 

[aggri1]

The errors I have seen are always under reporting on the financial implications of the upgrade, ...

Another consistently incorrect Effects calculation relates to the No Espionage game option. If you play with No Espionage, the culture amount produced by espionage buildings (instead of espionage points) is also wrong (over-estimated). The claimed Actual Effect pop-up seems to include culture modifiers (e.g. +50% from a large religious building) but in actuality espionage-derived culture is added AFTER these modifiers are applied to the real culture. At least, according to the culture pop-up in the city screen.

This has always been like this I think.

 

[Samson]

Another consistently incorrect Effects calculation relates to the No Espionage game option. If you play with No Espionage, the culture amount produced by espionage buildings (instead of espionage points) is also wrong (over-estimated). The claimed Actual Effect pop-up seems to include culture modifiers (e.g. +50% from a large religious building) but in actuality espionage-derived culture is added AFTER these modifiers are applied to the real culture. At least, according to the culture pop-up in the city screen.

This has always been like this I think.

You have just reminded me of something that I have NOT reported. The culture pop-up in the city screen is wrong when you have culture added to all specialists (Karnac temple complex and Sistine chapel). The calculation does not include this (it shows the "culture from specialists" as the normal culture from artists only) but the total culture is more than this, so it is getting added but not in the calculation.

 

[wr3zzz]

Where can I find information on the new Special buildings in city view under the tab of building/wonder/special?

I am new to rev989 (can never the launcher to update so I am stuck with the full release) and just noticed in one play I got a special building allowing me to turn captured deer into a resource. I cannot find anything in the ingame civpedia.

Thanks

 

[Vokarya]

Where can I find information on the new Special buildings in city view under the tab of building/wonder/special?

I am new to rev989 (can never the launcher to update so I am stuck with the full release) and just noticed in one play I got a special building allowing me to turn captured deer into a resource. I cannot find anything in the ingame civpedia.

Thanks

Planting animals is not done as a building, it's done as a mission. The Special tab is used only for buildings with cost -1 (not buildable through ordinary means). We have very few of these.

A captured animal can be planted as a resource on any appropriate terrain tile that does not already have a resource once you have Animal Husbandry. I should probably put a Help tag on Animal Husbandry to explain.

 

[Vokarya]

I have an odd question to ask. I believe I have promised three new buildings. I know two of them are the Surveillance Network and the Durasteel Plant, but I can't remember if there is a third one or not. I may be thinking of the Dome Farm, which is an improvement, not a building, but it still needs art assets to work properly and that's why I haven't really worked on implementing it until now.

If anyone can point me to anywhere else that I've promised a new building, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[fatgordy]

Are you sure that it actually causes the commerce loss, rather than relying on the "Actual Effects" in the pop-up? I have reported errors in these actual effects in a number of cases where a building replaces others, and the only way I can decide on the effects of a building is to find a city that has built neither the building itself and the building it replaces and view the actual effects reported there.

I just built International Port and confirmed that the "Actual" popup effects pre-build are indeed under-reported. The Actual popup said +28 and when I built it, it ended up being +55. And looking at the overall effects in the city, I see a pretty significant commerce improvement. (I have 49 domestic city connections and 168 foreign and all resources).

So bottom line, if you can handle the extra unhappy (+1) and unhealthy (+2) then go for it.

 

[Vokarya]

I have a couple more thoughts on buildings to share.

1. National Courier System. I think Horseback Riding makes a much better fit for this than Animal Husbandry. Animal Husbandry is one of the techs with 8+ tricks (Apiary, Butchery, Tannery, Pasture, reveal Horse, Plant Herd, National Courier System, Labyrinth of Knossos) that puts them in the top 10% overall. I think AH could easily spare a trick. Furthermore, I think we could then move the Mercenaries civic to Metal Casting. MC only has 3 tricks (Forge, Copper, Spearman) and it wouldn't hurt to give it another. HBR only has Mercenaries because I wanted it to have something other than mounted units, but NCS would be fine for diversity.

2. Do we need Boatyard and Marina as separate buildings? I feel that we already have the Harbor line of buildings and that the Boatyard/Marina is too similar. It also feels to me like we are just rewarding players too much for doing something they already want to do by settling near seafood resources. We don't have to cut these, but I don't think they would be terribly missed if they were gone.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Don't you need Writing for NCS, as well?

 

[Vokarya]

Don't you need Writing for NCS, as well?

This is true, but I'm not going to change that part. I think Writing+HBR is better than Writing+AH. Writing is a healthy 5 tricks (6 counting ending minor status) which is in my sweet spot. 6 tricks is okay; more than that feels out of balance.

 

[<Nexus>]

I have a couple more thoughts on buildings to share.

1. National Courier System. I think Horseback Riding makes a much better fit for this than Animal Husbandry. Animal Husbandry is one of the techs with 8+ tricks (Apiary, Butchery, Tannery, Pasture, reveal Horse, Plant Herd, National Courier System, Labyrinth of Knossos) that puts them in the top 10% overall. I think AH could easily spare a trick. Furthermore, I think we could then move the Mercenaries civic to Metal Casting. MC only has 3 tricks (Forge, Copper, Spearman) and it wouldn't hurt to give it another. HBR only has Mercenaries because I wanted it to have something other than mounted units, but NCS would be fine for diversity.

2. Do we need Boatyard and Marina as separate buildings? I feel that we already have the Harbor line of buildings and that the Boatyard/Marina is too similar. It also feels to me like we are just rewarding players too much for doing something they already want to do by settling near seafood resources. We don't have to cut these, but I don't think they would be terribly missed if they were gone.

1. Sounds reasonable.

2. This too. I personally never build those buildings because they are confusing. Description says it gives free specialists, but it does not show on the tool-tip

 

[aggri1]

I reckon since we already have a Port line of buildings, both Boatyard and Marina are superfluous; unless perhaps the Boatyard was required in order to build boats (perhaps excl. Fishing Boats).

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

shipyard speeds up both boat and ship building, (don't ask me, but there is a difference??)

Shipyard then upgrades to dry dock/Naval yard.

Spoiler :

Boatyard/ Marina has its own line

Spoiler :

Boatyard/Marina, gives 1 free specialist per fishing boat in cities radius.

 

[Vokarya]

I reckon since we already have a Port line of buildings, both Boatyard and Marina are superfluous; unless perhaps the Boatyard was required in order to build boats (perhaps excl. Fishing Boats).

I'm not in favor of that. I could possibly support building requirements for warships, but not for work boats or transport ships. Even then, we have the Shipyard/Drydock/Naval Yard for that, and I would certainly keep those because Drydock comes from vanilla BTS. So Boatyard and Marina are just the +1 free specialist per Fishing Boats, which is nice but I think is too good on top of the bonuses for seafood resources.

 

[Vokarya]

So I figured out some stats for the transportation hub buildings. These are your primary source of land-based foreign-connected commerce.

Caravanserai is the first hub. It is basically a reskin of the Paved Roads. However, I assigned it to a different tech: Horse Breeding, because I thought it could use help and I like to mix military and non-military tricks on the same tech. I emphatically do not want it assigned to Trade, as Trade has by far the most tricks with 10.5 (which will be cut to 8.5 once Silk Road is reassigned and Silk Farm rolled back into Plantation), so it really doesn't need any more.

Caravanserai also has no resource requirement and has its maximum commerce from foreign trade capped at +15. I thought +25 is way too much for a building this early.
View attachment 403672

Railway Station upgrades Caravanserai at Railroad. It increases the maximum commerce bonus from foreign trade to +20. It also provides some domestic commerce, 1/3 cities up to +10. Finally, the Railway Station provides +10% production as it makes it easier to ship raw materials around.
View attachment 403673

The last trade hub is the Transporter. It comes available at Teleportation. It is an upgrade of both the Railway Station and the Personal Rapid Train, as it can transport people and material. So it provides a lot of bonuses from both. I figured this will satisfy my need to have buildings dovetail when possible, but the Airport line will stay separate.

The Transporter provides +3 commerce from a capital connection and increases the maximum commerce to +30 from domestic connections and +30 from foreign. I almost lifted the limit completely, but I thought that might be too much. It increases the production bonus to +20%.

Since the Transporter upgrades Personal Rapid Train, it also provides +2 happiness (increased from Personal Rapid Train's +1) and +4 health, +0.1 per citizen (PRT provides +0.1 health/citizen, +1 health generally, +1 from Oil and +2 from Green, so Teleporter is equal to PRT's maximum bonus).

Finally, since the Transporter can teleport things, I added +20% spaceship production (like the Space Elevator, it helps get stuff into orbit faster) and can airlift 2 units per turn. It's a powerful building, but it comes very late in the game.
View attachment 403674

 

[<Nexus>]

Awesome

However I feel uncomfortable losing Paved Roads.

Couldn't we keep it? Would upgrade to High-Way, than that also to Transporter.

This line could be one focusing on local connectedness, while the other on foreign.

Of course High-Way would need to become a regular building, and get a new civic-building for Regulated (maybe just allow Free-port or Chamber of Commerce?) I never understood why HW is a civic limited building.

 

[Vokarya]

I don't want to keep Paved Roads. I think of Paved Roads as only the internal streets; the Road improvement covers the connections to other cities. I don't really think that paved streets have an effect big enough to show up on the scale of this game. Also, City Planning is a high-trick tech and I'd like to bring it down a touch. Furthermore, I don't think we should encourage early insularity. In the early game, it should be important to make connections and deals with other civilizations.