You know, I think you are right on this and Light Tank should be move 3 instead of 4. Does anyone else have anything to say? I'm probably going to be looking at some reworking of the modern and transhuman era tanks very soon.
Vokarya's Workshop: Units
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
You know, I think you are right on this and Light Tank should be move 3 instead of 4. Does anyone else have anything to say? I'm probably going to be looking at some reworking of the modern and transhuman era tanks very soon.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
If the Light Tanks are going to keep their current movement points, they should probably have something extra to balance them out. Maybe reduce the movement points but give them an innate withdrawal chance?
Light Tanks have the benefit of being cheaper than regular Tanks (about 25% cheaper), and 3 movement is still a lot when coupled with Blitz. I think they would still be good even without anything else.
I started to look at the Modern-Transhuman Era tanks. The first thing I thought of is I think we need a better role for the Hybrid Tank. It's stronger than the Modern Armor but it actually comes a little bit earlier -- the Hybrid Tank is available at Modern Warfare, while you have to get to Composites for Modern Armor.
The Hybrid Tank is currently Strength-120/speed-2. I'd like to make it strength-85/speed-3 and let it be an upgrade of the Main Battle Tank. Also, its cost would come down from 1000 to 775 (cheaper than Modern Armor).
The Hybrid Tank is currently Strength-120/speed-2. I'd like to make it strength-85/speed-3 and let it be an upgrade of the Main Battle Tank. Also, its cost would come down from 1000 to 775 (cheaper than Modern Armor).
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
The Recon Line of Motorcycle, Jeep, and Hover car; once upon a time, long ago in the zappara world, I'm pretty sure both the Motorcycle and Jeep had an attack value and were not just "defend" only. And even if my memory is faulty here neither should they be attack-less now. Both should have an attack strength of some kind. Same for the Hover car. To me it makes no sense that these units can not inflict damage of some sort.
JosEPh
JosEPh
Doesn't the Civilopedia entry for the motorcycle still talk about flank attack and withdrawal chance?
I'd like to be able to use these kind of units to mop up wounded enemy units, freight, missionaries, and so forth, also. I don't know how well the AI knows how to use cheap-but-weak units though...
EDIT: also, I think the light tank having three moves is still perfectly sufficient. It seems odd to me that it'd be faster than a jeep...
I initially flagged the Motorcycle/Jeep/Hovercar as Defend Only to follow the pattern of the previous Recon units. However, I think that having Defend Only status is also required if the unit is going to be allowed to cross borders freely with only Right of Passage, and I don't want to lose that. I don't know enough about how RoP vs. Open Borders works.
I will bring Motorcycle and Jeep up to speed 3. I think it's fine if they are faster than horses.
I never consider myself bound by Civilopedia text. That can always be rewritten.
I will bring Motorcycle and Jeep up to speed 3. I think it's fine if they are faster than horses.
I never consider myself bound by Civilopedia text. That can always be rewritten.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
For these 3 units they should Not have RoP privileges. But should have access to other AI lands thru the Establish Embassy level of Diplomacy. Which grants limited Mil units access thru borders, iirc.
These units abilities should be Modern Recon, (quick forays and strikes) and not the early game Recon (defend only).
JosEPh
Embassy doesn't do anything for unit access as far as I am aware. That's limited to Right of Passage (noncombatants) and Open Borders (all units). I"m not opposed to this, but I want to make sure we're all thinking the same thing.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Embassies work exactly as Vokarya says.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I know Embassies allow trading, buying or selling of worker units. But doesn't it also allow the same for recon units?
I sell workers thru Embassy level diplomacy all the time.
Shouldn't be that hard, you would think, to allow recon/scout type mil units to be included also.
JosEPh
I sell workers thru Embassy level diplomacy all the time.
Shouldn't be that hard, you would think, to allow recon/scout type mil units to be included also.
JosEPh
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
But we weren't talking about trade. Even if I can trade recon units, those couldn't still explore or roam another civ territory without either RoP or OB. If you mean giving them this ability with Embassies, I don't know how hard it could be but probably not easy and I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I understand we're not talking about trade of units, but what each level of Adv Diplomacy will allow.
So I'll go back to saying the Motorcycle, Jeep and Hover car should not be allowed entry with RoP and they should have an attack value. They are after all Military units.
JosEPh
So I'll go back to saying the Motorcycle, Jeep and Hover car should not be allowed entry with RoP and they should have an attack value. They are after all Military units.
JosEPh
Talking about trading units in diplomatic negotiations... is the ability to trade a unit specified by a simple boolean XML flag, or by Unit Class or some other factor? I'd love to be able to trade missionaries. I'd just give heaps of them to my friends, magically teleporting them and thereby saving me the tedium of moving them through barbarian-infested wastelands.
Regarding moving units through foreign lands with Right of Passage: I think I agree with Joseph in that the modern 'recon' units should perhaps be treated like normal military units rather than surveyors in terms of entering foreign lands, if that allows them to have some attack value. But what exactly makes the difference between a unit which can enter foreign borders merely with Right of Passage, rather than with Open Borders? Is it really whether or not the attack value is zero, or is it a function of Unit Class, or an entirely separate XML flag?
I think that by the time Motorcycles and Jeeps are available, needing to scout foreign lands with whom you have merely Right of Passage (rather than Open Borders) is probably pretty unlikely - unless you're already at war with that foreign power. No?
Looking forward to trying these in any case (if I finally make it past the Renaissance era!).
Regarding moving units through foreign lands with Right of Passage: I think I agree with Joseph in that the modern 'recon' units should perhaps be treated like normal military units rather than surveyors in terms of entering foreign lands, if that allows them to have some attack value. But what exactly makes the difference between a unit which can enter foreign borders merely with Right of Passage, rather than with Open Borders? Is it really whether or not the attack value is zero, or is it a function of Unit Class, or an entirely separate XML flag?
I think that by the time Motorcycles and Jeeps are available, needing to scout foreign lands with whom you have merely Right of Passage (rather than Open Borders) is probably pretty unlikely - unless you're already at war with that foreign power. No?
Looking forward to trying these in any case (if I finally make it past the Renaissance era!).
OK, I will do it in the next build. Are we okay with the Strength being low? I deliberately set them pretty low for the era (Motorcycle=20, Jeep=30, Hovercar=50). They will be able to snipe but won't be able to do much actual fighting against real military units of their era.
The tanks of the Transhuman Era are all concentrated in the first couple columns (with the exception of the Dreadnought Armor). I don't really want to mess with any of the stats too much, but I do want to sort them out and organize them into a pattern. So here's what I want to do with them:
Thermobaric Tank: This is the first Transhuman tank available at Rapid Prototyping, which is one of the starter techs of the Transhuman Era. I would like to have this be the successor to Modern Armor instead of the Hover Tank. I would also like to take its upkeep cost down to +2 per turn; it's currently at +10, which seems way out of line.
Hover Tank, Stealth Armor: These are both available at the second tier of Transhuman techs. I think these should both be upgrades of the Hybrid Tank. They would therefore continue the light tank role.
Plasma Armor: I think this should be the last heavy tank before Dreadnought Armor, and an improvement of the Thermobaric Tank. I would increase its strength to 180, cost to 1500 (it's currently 1400) and give it 25% city bombard (Thermobaric is 20%, Dreadnought is 40%).
This is what the revised tree would look like.
View attachment 373011
Thermobaric Tank: This is the first Transhuman tank available at Rapid Prototyping, which is one of the starter techs of the Transhuman Era. I would like to have this be the successor to Modern Armor instead of the Hover Tank. I would also like to take its upkeep cost down to +2 per turn; it's currently at +10, which seems way out of line.
Hover Tank, Stealth Armor: These are both available at the second tier of Transhuman techs. I think these should both be upgrades of the Hybrid Tank. They would therefore continue the light tank role.
Plasma Armor: I think this should be the last heavy tank before Dreadnought Armor, and an improvement of the Thermobaric Tank. I would increase its strength to 180, cost to 1500 (it's currently 1400) and give it 25% city bombard (Thermobaric is 20%, Dreadnought is 40%).
This is what the revised tree would look like.
View attachment 373011
Speaking just for myself, absolutely fine with it. I will use them for mopping up. Hopefully they can get Flanking (+withdraw chance) promotions.
oldnooob
Prince
Is it logical that spies would upgrade to agents?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Combat Wombat
Warlord
I think combining, splitting, splitting, combining all the tanks lines looks weird and doesn't make a lot of sense. Axe either stealth or hover or make a hover stealth tank... I feel like you are just using these units because they are already there not because the mod really needs both.
