<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I forgot that.
Still wonder what the cap is...
You mean you have added 1200 MORE unit graphics?
Wow!
Vokarya's Workshop: Units
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
Still wonder what the cap is...
Wow!1200 unit graphics seems like a lot more than I expect the memory would allow. I ran into a problem that I thought was the MAF once. That spurred me into try and cutting down the number of unit graphics we have. It's also a reason why I got rid of a few units that I considered "niche" or overlapped other units too much. One less unit means one less art definition.
I have pretty good documentation and I checked this one
First time I got problems with too many units was exactly 1090 extra units. But then again, I also noticed that it was only 25-30 MegaPack civs.
I found also old docs about test with 1380 extra units and that made game totally unstable. Lowering units to 1300 made it much more stable but still occasional problems.
So i think its sure that over 1300 reach game limits and even near 1000 is risky.
First time I got problems with too many units was exactly 1090 extra units. But then again, I also noticed that it was only 25-30 MegaPack civs.
I found also old docs about test with 1380 extra units and that made game totally unstable. Lowering units to 1300 made it much more stable but still occasional problems.
So i think its sure that over 1300 reach game limits and even near 1000 is risky.
I have pretty good documentation and I checked this one
First time I got problems with too many units was exactly 1090 extra units. But then again, I also noticed that it was only 25-30 MegaPack civs.
I found also old docs about test with 1380 extra units and that made game totally unstable. Lowering units to 1300 made it much more stable but still occasional problems.
So i think its sure that over 1300 reach game limits and even near 1000 is risky.
That makes me feel better about some of the plans that I have for future add-ons. I don't want the main mod to get too cluttered, so I would prefer to have two, possibly three, units in a given line during an era (if I stuck to two, I'd probably have to get rid of Battlecruiser and Dreadnought but they are too good to lose). But if there's that much room under the cap, that leaves space for entire categories of units without having to compromise anything else.
I'm not sure why it was necessary to give just about every Industrial Era warship two tech prerequisites, and in some cases three. This is my cleaned-up version of the ships assigned to particular techs.
Screw Propeller: This gives you Ironclad as the first steam warship.
Steel: This gives Iron Frigate as the first ocean-going steam warship.
Combustion: This gives Ironclad Battleship. Since it's more powerful than any other warship at this point, it should be pushed off to a later tech.
Industrialism: This gives Battlecruiser and Dreadnought. These are the ships of World War I, so I want them about halfway between the first steam warships and the end of the era.
Radio: This gives Submarine and Destroyer. Submarine was already here. Both Automobile and Radio techs can handle losing a unit or two, and I thought it made better symmetry to have both Submarines and their counter-unit available at the same tech.
Mechanized Warfare: This gives Cruiser and Battleship. Nothing here is changed.
Screw Propeller: This gives you Ironclad as the first steam warship.
Steel: This gives Iron Frigate as the first ocean-going steam warship.
Combustion: This gives Ironclad Battleship. Since it's more powerful than any other warship at this point, it should be pushed off to a later tech.
Industrialism: This gives Battlecruiser and Dreadnought. These are the ships of World War I, so I want them about halfway between the first steam warships and the end of the era.
Radio: This gives Submarine and Destroyer. Submarine was already here. Both Automobile and Radio techs can handle losing a unit or two, and I thought it made better symmetry to have both Submarines and their counter-unit available at the same tech.
Mechanized Warfare: This gives Cruiser and Battleship. Nothing here is changed.
Also, it isn't necessary for the A-Bomb unit to list Fission as a prerequisite. Because it is a nuclear unit, it isn't enough to just have Aviation tech + Fission tech + Uranium; you need to go through the two stages of Manhattan Project plus First Nuclear Test to even build it. To fill the First Nuclear Test need, you have to have Fission (it's possible someone else could build Manhattan, but each player needs their own First Nuclear Test to join the nuclear club). Keeping it on A-Bomb is redundant.
Here is what I plan to do with the double-teched Modern Era units.
First, the easy cut is taking Mechanized Warfare off the Modern Era units. Mechanized Warfare is an Industrial Era tech and it isn't a significant check to require a tech from a previous era for a unit.
Much as I want to, the units that are tied to Nuclear Power -- Supercarrier, Attack Submarine, Missile Submarine -- have to keep both techs. If I take Nuclear Power tech off those units, then that guts the tech. If I take the other tech off, then that puts the new units too close to the old ones, especially Carrier/Supercarrier.
Finally, the units that are spread out between Composites-Robotics-Modern Warfare-Guided Weapons-Stealth need to be sorted out.
First, the easy cut is taking Mechanized Warfare off the Modern Era units. Mechanized Warfare is an Industrial Era tech and it isn't a significant check to require a tech from a previous era for a unit.
Much as I want to, the units that are tied to Nuclear Power -- Supercarrier, Attack Submarine, Missile Submarine -- have to keep both techs. If I take Nuclear Power tech off those units, then that guts the tech. If I take the other tech off, then that puts the new units too close to the old ones, especially Carrier/Supercarrier.
Finally, the units that are spread out between Composites-Robotics-Modern Warfare-Guided Weapons-Stealth need to be sorted out.
- Modern Marine stays with Modern Warfare and loses Composites. I think it's a good fit here.
- Modern Armor stays with Composites and loses Robotics. I want to have space here between the Main Battle Tank (at Laser) and the Modern Armor.
- Strike Fighter also stays with Composites and loses Guided Weapons. Guided Weapons has so many units that it can give up one.
- Stealth Bomber, Stealth Destroyer, and Nighthawk all stay with Stealth and lose Robotics. Stealth is the more important tech here.
Here are some more tweaks I want to make to Transhuman Era units. Mostly what I'm interested in is niche protection: making sure all units are still viable. I think some Transhuman units blur the boundaries too much.
Bolter Infantry: Delete the +50% vs. Gunpowder and Tracked units and the free Blitz promotion, add +25% city defense. Bolter Infantry does not need a bonus vs. Gunpowder; the most powerful Gunpowder unit is the Automatons at 70 Strength, while Bolter Infantry are 110, which is already enough of an advantage. I also don't want Bolter Infantry to encroach on EMP Infantry as the anti-tank/mecha unit. Blitz is also a free promotion for tanks. Bolter Infantry are the "core defense" unit with no resources required and conscriptable. However, I think if you are having to conscript emergency units you should get a small edge, so I like the city defense bonus.
EMP Infantry: Also remove the Blitz promotion.
Cyborg: Cyborg has been on my radar since I noticed it requires both Cybernetics and Cloning techs. I think changing the Cloning Tanks requirement to Augmentation Center would be fine. Both the building and the unit are available at Cybernetics tech. Also, delete the Air Range 1. Air Range on a land unit gives it the ability to intercept air units on adjacent tiles. I think that ability should be restricted to the SAM line.
Genetic Soldier/Super Soldier: These are the few units that I think don't have enough abilities. I would like to have them actually start with some free promotions to represent inborn abilities.
Bolter Infantry: Delete the +50% vs. Gunpowder and Tracked units and the free Blitz promotion, add +25% city defense. Bolter Infantry does not need a bonus vs. Gunpowder; the most powerful Gunpowder unit is the Automatons at 70 Strength, while Bolter Infantry are 110, which is already enough of an advantage. I also don't want Bolter Infantry to encroach on EMP Infantry as the anti-tank/mecha unit. Blitz is also a free promotion for tanks. Bolter Infantry are the "core defense" unit with no resources required and conscriptable. However, I think if you are having to conscript emergency units you should get a small edge, so I like the city defense bonus.
EMP Infantry: Also remove the Blitz promotion.
Cyborg: Cyborg has been on my radar since I noticed it requires both Cybernetics and Cloning techs. I think changing the Cloning Tanks requirement to Augmentation Center would be fine. Both the building and the unit are available at Cybernetics tech. Also, delete the Air Range 1. Air Range on a land unit gives it the ability to intercept air units on adjacent tiles. I think that ability should be restricted to the SAM line.
Genetic Soldier/Super Soldier: These are the few units that I think don't have enough abilities. I would like to have them actually start with some free promotions to represent inborn abilities.
- Genetic Soldier: Start with Heal and Mobility.
- Super Soldier: Start with Amphibious, Heal, March, and Mobility. Also change the building requirement to Incubation Center. It should require a little more investment to get these units.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Good idea. I think it would also make sense to change Genetic Soldier/Super Soldier by:
- give them para-drop ability
- become the upgrade of Paratroopers
- give Pillage ability
- add UNITAI_PARADROP, iEvasionProbability
Would it hurt too much if Dropships could capture instead? I don't really want to fold the Paratrooper line into Super Soldier. But I think Transhuman Era warfare is where the old rules are supposed to be broken. Since it's supposed to be the endgame, I think wars deserve to be extra-fast.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Well... I still think that folding Paratrooper (and Marines too) into Super Soldier line is better.
It doesn't make much sense for me to let Dropships capture cities: neither for realism nor for gameplay. It's confusing if previous Helicopters cannot do it.
Also, that line is a line of "support" units. If they could capture cities, than why would we build any other units? Dropships would be the ultimate good-for-all unit that's also super-fast. Please, don't.
It doesn't make much sense for me to let Dropships capture cities: neither for realism nor for gameplay. It's confusing if previous Helicopters cannot do it.
Also, that line is a line of "support" units. If they could capture cities, than why would we build any other units? Dropships would be the ultimate good-for-all unit that's also super-fast. Please, don't.
Two more things about units:
Does the Stealth Submarine crowd the Attack Submarine too much? I currently think it does. The Attack Sub requires Rocketry (Modern-4) and the Stealth Sub requires Stealth (Modern-7). This feels a bit too tight. With Fusion heading up to Transhuman-4, that leaves a lot of space between the Stealth Submarine and the Fusion Sub. I think Metamaterials would be a better fit. The Stealth Sub feels like a Transhuman era unit that wound up in the Modern Era.
Second, can we find a better concept for the Fusion ships so that they don't have to have the name Fusion in them? I like having one last group of ships for the Transhuman Era, but tying them all to Fusion by name is a real problem for me. I especially don't want to cripple the Invisibility tech too badly. Invisibility currently looks like a 5-trick tech, but I think that's a very fragile 5 tricks:
Does the Stealth Submarine crowd the Attack Submarine too much? I currently think it does. The Attack Sub requires Rocketry (Modern-4) and the Stealth Sub requires Stealth (Modern-7). This feels a bit too tight. With Fusion heading up to Transhuman-4, that leaves a lot of space between the Stealth Submarine and the Fusion Sub. I think Metamaterials would be a better fit. The Stealth Sub feels like a Transhuman era unit that wound up in the Modern Era.
Second, can we find a better concept for the Fusion ships so that they don't have to have the name Fusion in them? I like having one last group of ships for the Transhuman Era, but tying them all to Fusion by name is a real problem for me. I especially don't want to cripple the Invisibility tech too badly. Invisibility currently looks like a 5-trick tech, but I think that's a very fragile 5 tricks:
- A free Great Spy is only given to the first discoverer.
- The Peace Maker unit is here, but I don't like it very much. I'm not sure what Invisibility has to do with the Peace Maker; the unit is just a nuke with a very large blast radius.
- The Y.A.M. is also here, but it's a disabled unit unless you manually activate the Advanced Nukes option.
- Stealth I and Stealth II promotions are both here. Requiring Invisibility for Stealth II is a blatant cheat to prevent building the National Redoubt, getting Stealth I for free, and then going directly to Stealth II.
- The Fusion Destroyer is the last trick here, and I really want to keep it, but with Fusion in the name, I feel the unit has to require Fusion tech as well. So I am thinking some sort of rename would work the very best.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Renaming ideas of Fusion Destroyer:
Titan is the second largest design in MoO2 (a name rather for a Battleship class)
Desolator sounds more universal but still rather a larger Battleship
Leviathan seems a good candidate for me.
Baracuda is an other one but sounds more like a sub for me.
Titan is the second largest design in MoO2 (a name rather for a Battleship class)
Desolator sounds more universal but still rather a larger Battleship
Leviathan seems a good candidate for me.
Baracuda is an other one but sounds more like a sub for me.
I like Leviathan, but you could also go with Nautilus, which I believe was the name of Captain Nemo's ship, variously described as more luxurious or more advanced than any other ship of its time.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Yes, it was Nemo's ship. But the Nautilus is rather "a submarine in the 1800's". It was a unique ship.
Actually I would like to see the Nautilus in the game: As a barbarian sub named Nautilus appearing in the industrial era thanks to an event.
We've got similar events (Illirian pirates, Hunnic raiders, etc) but I don't know if a unit can be created with a unique name by an event or not.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
For quite some time I'm planning an era split in my modmod by changing Industrial - Modern - Transhuman eras to Industrial - Atomic - Digital - Transhuman. (I have collected a great set of swing and jazz music for a new atomic era
)I would take the last 2 columns of Industrial era and the first half of Modern era to form the new Atomic era; than the second half of Modern era and the first 2 columns of Transhuman to form the new Digital era. Now playing with No Transhuman Era option you would have access to a little future stuff but not much.
Do you think that would suite you?
nionios
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2013
- Messages
- 466
For quite some time I'm planning an era split in my modmod by changing Industrial - Modern - Transhuman eras to Industrial - Atomic - Digital - Transhuman. (I have collected a great set of swing and jazz music for a new atomic era
I would take the last 2 columns of Industrial era and the first half of Modern era to form the new Atomic era; than the second half of Modern era and the first 2 columns of Transhuman to form the new Digital era. Now playing with No Transhuman Era option you would have access to a little future stuff but not much.
Do you think that would suite you?
Maybe.It sounds better than the current situation.Of course I'll have to try it.
The modmod you're referring to is 'Chronicles'?
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Yes, but it's not implemented yet and I'm far away from committing a new version. I have started to change a lot of things and now my home-version is full of half done stuff I need to finish.
But perhaps you could explain how you imagine a Lighter Transhuman Era here:
[MODMOD] Ideas, requests, proposals
