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Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Vokarya, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. youmakemefart

    youmakemefart Chieftain

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    As there is a Wonder for
    - 1) the Hanseatic Leauge
    - 2) the Silk Road

    There MUST be some kind of a Wonder for the Indian Ocean Trade which had its peak 700-1500 and was incredibly significant for the wealth of much of the Islamic world, India and China, the spread of Islam and pretty much of all History East of Europe (which has generally been neglected in the West.)

    Indian Ocean trade was in terms of scale, duration, sophistication and influence MUCH bigger than the above mentioned wonders. It perfected maritime innovations such as the Latin sail, led to the invention of the Rudder (or at least its widespread use) and ships that were several times the size of what Columbus used to cross the Atlantic.
    Unlike the land transport via the Silk Road ships allowed to transport mass-goods of lower value such as wood, ore and food - also because trade-winds in the Indian Oceans were/are extremely reliable.

    The fraction of wealth that reached Europe from this huge Network via Byzantium and then Venice and the Ottomans fueled European imagination and was a prime motivator of European Exploration to find alternative routes to India and China.

    I could go on and on about the importance of this trade system. I think you get the point.

    I would suggest something like: +100% :gold: in the city building the wonder OR a harbor in in every coastal city OR +15% :gold: in every city

    AND (because it was so important for the spread of Islam) the spread of the the state religion to EVERY COASTAL CITY CONNECTED TO YOUR TRADE NETWORK

    As a tech I would suggest either: SHIPBUILDING + PAPER


    What do you guys think??
     
  2. nionios

    nionios Chieftain

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    IMHO it is pointless for some wonders like Hanging Gardens or Foundling hospital to give +1:health: and +1 population because the increase in population means +1:yuck: so it automatically eliminates the advantage of healthiness.What do you think about that?
     
  3. Noyyau

    Noyyau Privateer Captain

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    Rather the +1:health: allows you to have that +1 population without the drawback of a +1:yuck:
     
  4. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    It's how it works in BTS - Hanging Gardens has not changed from its original ability. Also keep in mind some buildings provide a fraction of a health per citizen, so once those are active, +1 population provides less than +1 unhealth.
     
  5. nionios

    nionios Chieftain

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    OK I got it but as far as the unhealthiness due to population is concerned,it is always equal to population.For example: a city with 10 pop has 10:yuck: due to population.Am I right?
     
  6. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Exactly - which means that the +1 pop / +1 health thing is translating to "Here's a free population point without the unhealth that would come along with it"
     
  7. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    ...otherwise you would find yourself in a situation "X city will shrink to previous size" too often. So the gained bonus would be lost in a few turns later.
     
  8. youmakemefart

    youmakemefart Chieftain

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    Any feedback on this idea?
     
  9. Rezca

    Rezca The Greatest Jaggi

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    Plus the +1 Health is permanent - the +1 pop isn't :)
    Well, the not exactly permanent since Foundling Hopsital's +1 Health goes away eventually, think the Hanging Gardens does too really late, but they stick around well much longer than a simple +1 pop boost - which migth disappear the very next turn due to food shortages, or a few turns later because of spying or events... The Health would stick around much much muich longer!
     
  10. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    At this point, I'm not interested in adding anything that isn't filling out a one-trick tech, and the only tech left is Storytelling. I have a package of things in mind for that, and then we're pretty much wrapping things up.
     
  11. youmakemefart

    youmakemefart Chieftain

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    @Storytelling:

    How about a wonder à la "The Epic of Gilgamesh"? +100% :culture:, +1 :culture:, +1 :) +1 Great Artist?

    Culture is pretty powerful, especially at the start...
     
  12. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    I think the National Epic NW just covers that.
     
  13. youmakemefart

    youmakemefart Chieftain

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    Good point
     
  14. philipschall

    philipschall Chieftain

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    I'm pretty sure the NW "Supreme Court" is bugged. The effect, free courthouse in every city, is rather redundant. It requires 7 district courthouses to build, and each district courthouse requires 7 courthouses. So it takes 49 courthouses to have a free courthouse in every city.

    Also, some wonders cause some pretty harsh snowballing, and I would consider them OP. Here's what I'm talking about:

    Leonardo's Workshop +1 :science: for every specialist.
    At the start of Renaissance, If I grab oil painting first, I'm likely to be fielding tanks against rilfemen later in the game. Even if I'm running 9 cities, that puts me way ahead in tech over time. How about +2 :science: to artist?

    Piazza San Marco Free market in every city.
    This one wins games if you have a big empire, and right at the start of Medieval. Perhaps Rename it and move it to Late Renaissance/early industrial? Or have it also require Usury and a bank? Maybe a series of civics as well, like patrician and republic?

    Itsukushima Shrine +1 :food: +1 :commerce: for every water tile. Requires Shinto

    This one lets fishing villages/coastal cities become powerhouses, and guarantees victory in Archipelago Maps. Combined with colossus and a financial trait (or the portuguese UB) it makes all water tiles yield 5 :commerce:, allowing your economy to explode just from settling islands.
    How about all cities require -50% :food: to grow, and a keeping of the happiness bonus for shinto buildings.

    Silk Road +100% :gold:
    This one is might not be OP, since its strength only hits when built on top of a shrine, and it's kinda a pain to build (7 bazaar req.). Maybe reduce it to +75% gold?

    Olympic Games Free arena in every city.
    Arenas aren't really that useful except for early/midgame military, but I think Olympic games should require having 7 arenas.

    All in all, the wonders are pretty well balanced. Great Job!
     
  15. aggri1

    aggri1 Chieftain

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    I don't understand the point of District Courthouses. They seem like a pretty minor variation on the Courthouse theme to me, and little trivialities like that are not normally what RoM is about. I'd get rid of District Courthouses altogether, as a reasonable simplification (and then Supreme Court could require just seven Courthouses).

    Cheers, A.
     
  16. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Chieftain

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    We might need to scale down numbers, but I'll let Vokarya answer more about Courthouses/District Courthouses/Supreme Court.
     
  17. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    District Courthouse and Supreme Court scale by map size; on a Standard map, it's 4 Courthouses per DC and 4 DC's for SC. I can lower that by 1 to bring it in line with Cathedrals. Also, Supreme Court requires one of the democratic governments to build; without that, you're limited to DCs. I'm not very fond of the "X buildings" requirement and want to be careful with it. Via Appia doesn't get built when it should because of the Paved Roads requirement.

    In general, I go for the most unencumbered Wonder effects possible, and some of them are going to scale differently with different play styles. Yes, Itsukushima is strong on Archipelago maps, but Via Appia and Golden Spike lose a lot of their power. I'm almost done adding things, so we can focus on balancing testing soon, but I'm going to need a lot of evidence before I change anything else.
     
  18. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Chieftain

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    Just wonder...
    I've tried on large maps and requirement is 5x5 which is not impossible but it will get harder when I increase default number of starting civilizations. On my current game on a large map with 22 starting civs, Revolution and barbarian civs, any civ will hardly reach 16-20 cities, hence no civ should be able to build SC. Lowering requirements by 1 should be OK to me.
     
  19. nionios

    nionios Chieftain

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    Why negative culture for this wonder?
    IMHO it's not right to have a wonder with negative bonus.Wonders should give only good stuff.
     
  20. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    No. World Wonder (and anything imo) should give more bonus then penalty.
    The -:culture: represents the fact that cultural (and other) things are censored on the net.
     

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