Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

[Rezca]

What do you think of bringing back the other ability of Carhenge? Its current version provides a free Recycling Center in all cities. With Recycling Center costing +15% in maintenance, I think sometimes this is more painful to build than it should be.

The alternative ability that has been created before is that whenever a mechanical unit (that is, <bMechanical> is 1) dies, the owner of Carhenge gets gold. The original idea is that the gold is equal to half the base cost. So a Tank with a base cost of 180 would net 90 gold to Carhenge's owner when it dies. We could do a different % or a flat amount of gold per unit.

What do you think?

Unless large treasuries are made harder to maintain later in the game (Most games once the Modern arrives, gold is never a concern and every nation is sitting at 100% sliders and tens of thounds of gold in their treasury) I'd say have a slightly lower % on the kills. There's going to be a lot of mechanical units running around so that'd add up real quick I imagine, though maybe some tests would prove otherwise?

 

[Noyyau]

Maybe Carhenge should generate for its owner only when their own mechanical units die?

 

[Vokarya]

The code I have is actually the owner of Carhenge has to be the one killing the unit.

def onUnitKilled(self, argsList):
	'Unit Killed'
	unit, iAttacker = argsList
	player = PyPlayer(unit.getOwner())
	attacker = PyPlayer(iAttacker)

## CarHenge Start ##
	pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iAttacker)
	bc_Carhenge = gc.getInfoTypeForString("BUILDINGCLASS_CARHENGE")
	if pPlayer.getBuildingClassCount(bc_Carhenge) ==1:
		unitInfo = gc.getUnitInfo(unit.getUnitType())
		if unitInfo.isMechUnit():
			pPlayer.changeGold(int(unitInfo.getProductionCost() / 2))

I am finding that I am getting use out of my sliders even in the Modern Era. I think it's because I am using Corporations which are extremely expensive. I'm only using Creative Constructions in a few cities and Ultimate Soldiers in two cities -- the founding city and my target super-unit builder (West Point, Secret Army Base, National Redoubt, Red Cross). I accidentally destroyed one of my favorite combinations; Mining Inc and Ultimate Soldiers now compete over Lead. I think this is actually good, as Mining Inc is the best hammer-producing corporation and so it should have to compete with Ultimate Soldiers to prevent super-units.

 

[Rezca]

Ah right I forgot about corporations being expensive when you start getting a lot of them set up in your empire


I agree with MiningInc and USoliders competing with each other is being a good thing too.

 

[nionios]

What do you think of bringing back the other ability of Carhenge? Its current version provides a free Recycling Center in all cities. With Recycling Center costing +15% in maintenance, I think sometimes this is more painful to build than it should be.

I don't think there's any problem with Recycling Center.I find it very useful because gives +3 which is very useful against the pollution that accumulates during the Industrial and the Modern era.OK,the +1 happy face isn't so important.
What I consider more painful are the negatives of Sewer System (+10% maintenance,-20% against espionage).That is the reason why I never build it.

 

[<Nexus>]

What do you think of bringing back the other ability of Carhenge? Its current version provides a free Recycling Center in all cities. With Recycling Center costing +15% in maintenance, I think sometimes this is more painful to build than it should be.

It's easy to heal by replacing the free building bonus with a cost reduction bonus: Recycling Center cost 90% less in all cities are still a good bonus, but the player has the choice.

BTW, I like the other idea as well.

 

[Vokarya]

I found out we actually have a lot of free buildings from Wonders. So I think that makes a fairly good reason to pull the free Recycling Center from Carhenge and give it a different effect.

Here is the current list, except for Carhenge:

• Stonehenge: Free Standing Stone.
• Pyramids: Free Graveyard.
• Hill of Tara: Free Village Hall. This is easily replaced by Town Hall or better.
• Olympic Games: Free Arena.
• Piazza San Marco: Free Market. This is a full era after the Market becomes available.
• Supreme Court: Free Courthouse. This is the only National Wonder on the list, and it provides a building that first appeared two eras before. I would expect most of your biggest cities to have Courthouses long before Supreme Court comes available, but it can help if you are settling or conquering.
• Madison Avenue: Free Advertising Agency.
• Eiffel Tower: Free Broadcast Tower.
• World News Network: Free TV Station.
• Great Firewall: Free Surveillance Network.
• Global Stock Exchange: Free E-Bank.
  • Note these four free buildings all require some infrastructure to really benefit from. All four require Power, TV Station needs a Broadcast Tower or better, and Surveillance Network and E-Bank need a Computer Network.
• The Agency: Free Intelligence Agency. Intelligence Agency is not usually a priority build. It's also available an era before The Agency shows up.
• National Shield: Free Arcology Shielding.

 

[awesomenewdawn]

Vokarya, thank you for version 1018. I believe you are the only one who is updating Civ 4, not losing the the base game yet evolving the game. Civ4 is the remake of Civ1, with sufficient graphics. We don´t need other mods or Civ 5 and 6. You are doing the same good thing as Minecraft modders, with a game that can´t get old even after five years or more.

What I would like is absolute realism and less city plots: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=401687

 

[Vokarya]

Here is another idea I have had. I don't think Apollo Program should be the starting point for a space program. I don't really like using specific names for National Wonders/Team Projects where each civ will have one, but I will leave most of the current names alone.

The current Apollo Program will become Space Program. I don't think anything else about it needs to change, except that it will NOT turn off if Space Race Victory is disabled. There are enough other uses for a Space Program (unlike Apollo in BTS) that it has a use outside of the Spaceship. The Spaceship parts can still be turned off if Space Race is disabled. Also, Hubble Space Telescope and International Space Station will have Space Program as a <PrereqProject> rather than an <AnyonePrereqProject>. This means that you have to build your own Space Program rather than piggyback on someone else's.

Apollo Program will instead be a World Project, representing the glory of being the first to put a human on the Moon. As an expression of national pride, finishing Apollo Program would be worth +2 happiness in all cities and +5% culture. It provides no science bonus; if you want science, build Hubble Telescope.

I also think that Hubble Telescope and International Space Station need their costs increased. Encyclopedia is currently more expensive. I think doubling would be a good place to start.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Here is another idea I have had. I don't think Apollo Program should be the starting point for a space program. I don't really like using specific names for National Wonders/Team Projects where each civ will have one, but I will leave most of the current names alone.

The current Apollo Program will become Space Program. I don't think anything else about it needs to change, except that it will NOT turn off if Space Race Victory is disabled. There are enough other uses for a Space Program (unlike Apollo in BTS) that it has a use outside of the Spaceship. The Spaceship parts can still be turned off if Space Race is disabled. Also, Hubble Space Telescope and International Space Station will have Space Program as a <PrereqProject> rather than an <AnyonePrereqProject>. This means that you have to build your own Space Program rather than piggyback on someone else's.

Apollo Program will instead be a World Project, representing the glory of being the first to put a human on the Moon. As an expression of national pride, finishing Apollo Program would be worth +2 happiness in all cities and +5% culture. It provides no science bonus; if you want science, build Hubble Telescope.

I also think that Hubble Telescope and International Space Station need their costs increased. Encyclopedia is currently more expensive. I think doubling would be a good place to start.

I think it's a good idea. Speaking of projects, I have some doubts about anti nukes projects. SDI, railgun and laser don't remember what are team projects if I'm not mistaken. They sound more like National Wonders to me, everybody is always building SDI and I wonder if we should put some more restrictions on them. I don't remember if for example you can put a limit to how many teams can build a team project.

 

[Vokarya]

I think it's a good idea. Speaking of projects, I have some doubts about anti nukes projects. SDI, railgun and laser don't remember what are team projects if I'm not mistaken. They sound more like National Wonders to me, everybody is always building SDI and I wonder if we should put some more restrictions on them. I don't remember if for example you can put a limit to how many teams can build a team project.

Projects are currently the only way to get nuclear interception (<iNukeIntercept>) as opposed to reducing damage from nuclear attacks (<iNukeModifier>).

You can set a limit on how many teams can build a team project by setting both <iMaxGlobalInstances> and <iMaxTeamInstances> to a number higher than 0. I don't think this is a good idea. I think everyone should be allowed to build their own nuclear umbrella. The maximum possible intercept from projects is 75% (SDI 25% + AA Missile Defense 10% + Laser Auto-Defenses 15% + Anti-Missile Railgun 25%) and that is before any interception on the missile being used. So you should be able to get some nukes through if you fire enough of them at once.

I would, however, not object to moving up some of the projects to later in the tech tree. That way, your only nuclear defense during the Modern Era is the unreliable SDI and it's harder to get up to an even 50-50 chance or better. The only other weapons to use the nuke mechanic are BBM and Plague Bringer, both of which appear after SDI.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Projects are currently the only way to get nuclear interception () as opposed to reducing damage from nuclear attacks ().

You can set a limit on how many teams can build a team project by setting both and to a number higher than 0. I don't think this is a good idea. I think everyone should be allowed to build their own nuclear umbrella. The maximum possible intercept from projects is 75% (SDI 25% + AA Missile Defense 10% + Laser Auto-Defenses 15% + Anti-Missile Railgun 25%) and that is before any interception on the missile being used. So you should be able to get some nukes through if you fire enough of them at once.

I would, however, not object to moving up some of the projects to later in the tech tree. That way, your only nuclear defense during the Modern Era is the unreliable SDI and it's harder to get up to an even 50-50 chance or better. The only other weapons to use the nuke mechanic are BBM and Plague Bringer, both of which appear after SDI.

Well, 75% looks a bit high to me, but for Transhuman it might be OK. Even 50% looks very high to me for modern era. I don't think we're nearly close to this value in our world now. I would move SDI to Orbital Flight and since it has a lot of tricks, I would probably move AA Aquatic Defense from there to a low tricks tech, maybe Cybernetics. This way we would have increasing chances of nukes interception (10%, 15%, 25%, 25%) and would leave a more realistic 10% chance in modern era up to Artificial Intelligence which grants Laser Auto Defense if I'm not mistaken. I would also lower Railgun chances from 25% to 15% if it's OK with you. What do you think?

Oh, and while we're there, I would remove +25% faster production with Glassware from Laser auto defenses (everyone has glassware by that time), and 25% with gold and probably cement too which don't make sense for Laser, don't you think?

 

[Vokarya]

Here's my idea for spreading out the missile defense projects. I think we should change a few names, but I'm not sure what exactly to use. I agree that we can take out the production bonuses from resources. Those are unnecessary at this point in the game. Also, the later projects should be more expensive than the earlier ones.

• Project #1: SDI. Available at Space Stations. 15% chance of intercepting nukes. I want to keep the SDI name in the Modern Era. I also think Space Stations could use a trick more than Networking. Networking has 6.5 tricks right now and could spare one.
• Project #2: ?? name. Could keep the Laser Auto-Defenses name. Available at Artificial Intelligence. 15% chance of intercepting nukes. AI needs the second project to keep it above the two-trick threshold, as the Transhuman Era would not feel right without an AI tech.
• Project #3: ?? name. Available at Quantum Computing. 20% chance of intercepting nukes. Quantum Computing is one of the lowest trick-count techs in the middle Transhuman Era.
• Project #4: ?? name. I'm thinking Nuclear Shield. Available at Terra Computer. 30% chance of intercepting nukes. Terra Computer is two columns from Future Tech and only has 2.5 tricks.

This gives 15% in the late Modern Era, 30% in the early Transhuman, 50% in the middle Transhuman, and 80% in the late Transhuman. I think 80% is fair at such a late game stage.

Also, I think we should chain the projects together. Someone has to build Manhattan Project before SDI is available. SDI is required for project 2, project 2 is required for project 3, and project 3 is required before the last project. That way you only have one project on the build lists at a time instead of all of them.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Here's my idea for spreading out the missile defense projects. I think we should change a few names, but I'm not sure what exactly to use. I agree that we can take out the production bonuses from resources. Those are unnecessary at this point in the game. Also, the later projects should be more expensive than the earlier ones.

• Project #1: SDI. Available at Space Stations. 15% chance of intercepting nukes. I want to keep the SDI name in the Modern Era. I also think Space Stations could use a trick more than Networking. Networking has 6.5 tricks right now and could spare one.
• Project #2: ?? name. Could keep the Laser Auto-Defenses name. Available at Artificial Intelligence. 15% chance of intercepting nukes. AI needs the second project to keep it above the two-trick threshold, as the Transhuman Era would not feel right without an AI tech.
• Project #3: ?? name. Available at Quantum Computing. 20% chance of intercepting nukes. Quantum Computing is one of the lowest trick-count techs in the middle Transhuman Era.
• Project #4: ?? name. I'm thinking Nuclear Shield. Available at Terra Computer. 30% chance of intercepting nukes. Terra Computer is two columns from Future Tech and only has 2.5 tricks.

This gives 15% in the late Modern Era, 30% in the early Transhuman, 50% in the middle Transhuman, and 80% in the late Transhuman. I think 80% is fair at such a late game stage.

Also, I think we should chain the projects together. Someone has to build Manhattan Project before SDI is available. SDI is required for project 2, project 2 is required for project 3, and project 3 is required before the last project. That way you only have one project on the build lists at a time instead of all of them.

OK, sounds good to me. But are you going to axe Railgun? The weapon concept is good and we could keep it for the third project. I don't mind cutting the tech and moving the project and its name somewhere else. Or shall we find another name and cut both tech and project completely and have the project replaced by your nr.3 project?

 

[Vokarya]

OK, sounds good to me. But are you going to axe Railgun? The weapon concept is good and we could keep it for the third project. I don't mind cutting the tech and moving the project and its name somewhere else. Or shall we find another name and cut both tech and project completely and have the project replaced by your nr.3 project?

Railgun is fine without having a missile defense project; it has Bolter Infantry, Plasma Armor (shared with Controlled Plasma, but since both are Transhuman Era tricks, it counts as a major for both), Railgun Turret, and the Electromagnetic Armor and Weapon Upgrade promotions. That's a trick count of 4, which is in the healthy range. 4-5 tricks is my sweet spot. I don't want to go below 4, and my eyebrows start to go up around 6. But removing the project doesn't trigger anything that would make me want to remove the tech.

We're really ripping the project out and giving it a completely new look. Its placement, cost, and % of interception will all be changed. But most of the underlying XML will still be there.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Railgun is fine without having a missile defense project; it has Bolter Infantry, Plasma Armor (shared with Controlled Plasma, but since both are Transhuman Era tricks, it counts as a major for both), Railgun Turret, and the Electromagnetic Armor and Weapon Upgrade promotions. That's a trick count of 4, which is in the healthy range. 4-5 tricks is my sweet spot. I don't want to go below 4, and my eyebrows start to go up around 6. But removing the project doesn't trigger anything that would make me want to remove the tech.

We're really ripping the project out and giving it a completely new look. Its placement, cost, and % of interception will all be changed. But most of the underlying XML will still be there.

OK then, I don't have a good name for project 3, unless we move SDI there and use maybe THAAD as project 1. I know SDI has been developed as a concept in past years, but I think we're technologically far from making it possible/reliable. What we do have now are interceptor missiles which could become project1 while moving SDI further. My only concern is that SDI is probably fitting better as project1 even if I don't know why, it's just a feeling. In this case we need to find another name for project3 as I don't think something like THAAD fits so far into transhuman era.

 

[<Nexus>]

Maybe project#3 could be not a weapon but a hacking-device (Digital Defense Network?) as it is placed to Quantum Computing. In this case it could even add some bonus and maybe should not be part of the chain, being a different type of defense.

 

[Vokarya]

Maybe project#3 could be not a weapon but a hacking-device (Digital Defense Network?) as it is placed to Quantum Computing. In this case it could even add some bonus and maybe should not be part of the chain, being a different type of defense.

I'm not changing the basic idea. We have four stacking projects that increase your chance of intercepting nukes. I'm just placing one of the projects at Quantum Computing because QC is a low-trick-count tech in the central part of the Transhuman Era.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is something I need to ask. Heroic Epic is currently set to require a unit of level 6. Does anyone else think this is a bit too high? In BTS, Heroic Epic only requires a unit of level 4 (10 XP). It is a bit easier to get a high-XP unit out of the blocks -- in fact, it's probably too easy and we might have to lower some XP from buildings -- but level 6 is the level for West Point (26 XP). I think we should lower HE to at least level 5 and possibly all the way back to level 4.

 

[Rezca]

Here is something I need to ask. Heroic Epic is currently set to require a unit of level 6. Does anyone else think this is a bit too high? In BTS, Heroic Epic only requires a unit of level 4 (10 XP). It is a bit easier to get a high-XP unit out of the blocks -- in fact, it's probably too easy and we might have to lower some XP from buildings -- but level 6 is the level for West Point (26 XP). I think we should lower HE to at least level 5 and possibly all the way back to level 4.

I think keeping it at 6 is fine unless we lower the exp on some buildings (Archery Range comes to mind...)