Voting

[knowltok]

My first thread. I'm looking for a good discussion here. I know that this will be a contraversial topic (I hope) but I want to see what people's reactions are. While my experience with voting is limited to the U.S., I'd like to here from those from around the world too. One last point: this is more of an idea to get rational discussion started that a hard and fast belief, so when you disagree, keep it rational and thought out, even if you are pissed off.

In my experiences I am becoming increasing disenchanted with the concept of one vote for each person. The basis of my thought is that voting is a way of counting the opinions of the populace and finding out what they want. Under the current system all opinions are treated equally. My thought is that some people's opinions should be worth more than others. This is not on any racial, ethnic, gender, or sexual preference basis. I am thinking more of education, service, and contribution to the community.

Here are some of the points of my proposed system: (Keep in mind that this is theoretical, and that practical application of a point may be 'unrealistic'.)

1. Every citizen of 18 years of age gets one vote.
2. Every citizen that has graduated high school gets another vote.
3. Additional votes for a Bachelor's, Master's, and PHD. Only one per level reached.
4. One Vote for Government service. Military, or Government Service Corps (Not yet created. An Org. that works on public projects for the betterment of the nation. Kinda a large volunteer organization that people would commit to for at least 4 years. Basically a substitute for military service for those that don't want it, or if there is more volunteers than military spots).
5. Zero votes for Felons (This currently exists)
6. Temporary suspension of votes for multiple misdemeanors.
7. Minus one vote for special government assistance. (Welfare)



The intention of the system is to promote more social responsibility and higher levels of education. I know that under current conditions this system would favor certain groups over others, but then intention is not to put or keep those groups in power, but to reward productive behavior.

I guess my basic problem comes from the fact that a college educated veteran (I'm not a vet by the way) who works, pays taxes, and obeys the law should have more of a voice in government than an 18 year old high-school dropout on welfare with a couple of misdemeanor drug charges.

Perhaps I have on rose colored glasses, but I don't think that the college educated people not on welfare will use their new power to trample on the rights of the poor and uneducated. Education and opportunity are out there for those that want them.

I know these thoughts will draw a storm, but if you want to point out how this system is unfair, answer whether or not you agree with my problems with the current system.

A note: Some of my ideas are borrowed from Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein.

 

[CornMaster]

Originally posted by knowltok
My first thread. I'm looking for a good discussion here. I know that this will be a contraversial topic (I hope) but I want to see what people's reactions are. While my experience with voting is limited to the U.S., I'd like to here from those from around the world too. One last point: this is more of an idea to get rational discussion started that a hard and fast belief, so when you disagree, keep it rational and thought out, even if you are pissed off.

In my experiences I am becoming increasing disenchanted with the concept of one vote for each person. The basis of my thought is that voting is a way of counting the opinions of the populace and finding out what they want. Under the current system all opinions are treated equally. My thought is that some people's opinions should be worth more than others. This is not on any racial, ethnic, gender, or sexual preference basis. I am thinking more of education, service, and contribution to the community.

Here are some of the points of my proposed system: (Keep in mind that this is theoretical, and that practical application of a point may be 'unrealistic'.)

1. Every citizen of 18 years of age gets one vote.
2. Every citizen that has graduated high school gets another vote.
3. Additional votes for a Bachelor's, Master's, and PHD. Only one per level reached.
4. One Vote for Government service. Military, or Government Service Corps (Not yet created. An Org. that works on public projects for the betterment of the nation. Kinda a large volunteer organization that people would commit to for at least 4 years. Basically a substitute for military service for those that don't want it, or if there is more volunteers than military spots).
5. Zero votes for Felons (This currently exists)
6. Temporary suspension of votes for multiple misdemeanors.
7. Minus one vote for special government assistance. (Welfare)



The intention of the system is to promote more social responsibility and higher levels of education. I know that under current conditions this system would favor certain groups over others, but then intention is not to put or keep those groups in power, but to reward productive behavior.

I guess my basic problem comes from the fact that a college educated veteran (I'm not a vet by the way) who works, pays taxes, and obeys the law should have more of a voice in government than an 18 year old high-school dropout on welfare with a couple of misdemeanor drug charges.

Perhaps I have on rose colored glasses, but I don't think that the college educated people not on welfare will use their new power to trample on the rights of the poor and uneducated. Education and opportunity are out there for those that want them.

I know these thoughts will draw a storm, but if you want to point out how this system is unfair, answer whether or not you agree with my problems with the current system.

A note: Some of my ideas are borrowed from Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein.

Oh...I soooooooo disagree.

What happened to equality under God?

If someone is down on his luck and on welfare his opinion means less then some rich bastard that bought his degrees and don't care **** for this country. I don't think so.

Your system favors the Rich. Unless the government made education free, and placed workers in jobs. But this sounds a little like Communism to me....and I know a few posters here that are against that idea.

In closing. I disagree.

 

[animepornstar]

unfair system. "rich" people with better possibilities to get a good education and stay away from crimes will have more power then other. a small group will be able to rule over the masses. that system reminds of the system we had in sweden for about a hundred years ago and that system northern ireland had a time ago.

and remember, education is not equal to wisdom.

 

[Strik]

I find it a stupid Idea. Some people are born smarter than others, therefor they won't achieve some of your rules. Other people can easily get a grade because their parents are richer and can pay for their son/daughters education. And getting an extra vote for government service is just stupid. As if you are less important when you haven't been in the military or something.

Personally I would never go into the military, it is just a waste of time.

And no votes for felons, like when you have did something wrong in the past and you are now living a "good" life you won't get to vote.

If this would ever be instituted in my country. I would resist big time. And probably not peacefully either.

 

[Hamlet]

I demand that this thread be re-titled "My big idea on how to take society back 200 years."

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by knowltok
A note: Some of my ideas are borrowed from Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein.

Hmmmmmm, I always thought that fictious fascist dystopias were a bad place to take political ideas from.

Although that's just me.

 

[knowltok]

Thanks for your response. You are right, it would favor the rich, but there are plenty of people out there who would qualify for multiple votes even though they aren't rich. Join the army, get a degree from the GI bill and your already near the top. For most people with motivation and a degree of intelligence it should not be hard to stay off of welfare.

This person has 4 out of 6 possible votes. The government in its current state provided for all of it.

Actually I think it would favor the middle class more than the rich. It takes no money to get the government service vote, and either through that or any number of programs most who want a college degree can get one.

As far as equality under God, we aren't equal. Some are faster, some are stronger, some are smarter and some have more drive and ambition. I am not for the suspension of anyone's rights (other than the voting thing) based on any of these factors. Potentially the system could be abused, but then again, all systems can. After all, money can buy you justice.

And speaking about money, it also seems that people think it can buy elections. By this I take it to mean that if you spend enough money on adds you can get enough people on your side to win. I find this a scary proposition. Is the voting public so easily swayed? Part of my system is the hope that more educated and more mature people will demand more from politicians than what we have now. Scare tactics and baseless accusations fill politics today. Why? I think it is because there are large numbers of people who aren't smart enough, or educated enough to notice them for what they are. Therefore they work. Why bother convincing the minority of rational, thinking voters with reason and logic when we can sway the majority with hype and cheap scare tactics.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by CornMaster
But this sounds a little like Communism to me....

Have you been smoking illegal substances?

 

[Strik]

Originally posted by knowltok
And speaking about money, it also seems that people think it can buy elections. By this I take it to mean that if you spend enough money on adds you can get enough people on your side to win.

My advise to you: immigrate to another country that has more sense, where those adds don't work. Like where I live.

 

[Strik]

Have you been smoking illegal substances?

I have

It makes me sleep with my eyes open.:crazyeyes

 

[knowltok]

Well, I knew this would get a strong response. I hope people don't damn me too much for proposing a solution to what I percieve to be a problem. Perhaps I should clarify that I know this system wouldn't come to exist in this world. What I was looking for is a system that would reward and encourage responsibility and education. Also one that would encourage rational politics instead of hype and scare tactics.

As far as the military thing, keep in mind that there is the non military service for those that don't want to be in the military.

It seems many of you are quite pleased with your right to vote, and I assume that all of you do so (That can). That is great, and were everyone to take voting so seriously, I would never propose any change in the system. But the cold truth is that many people are indifferent and don't vote. This seems like an incredible shame to me.

 

[Hamlet]

Just make it illegal not to vote then. Seems simple enough to me. People can abstain on the ballot if they don't want to vote for anyone. Plenty of places have systems like that.

 

[knowltok]

>>My advise to you: immigrate to another country that has more sense, where those adds don't work. Like where I live<<

While I appreciate the advice, I would rather stay and try to make things better. My impact is likely to be small, or likely non-existant, I like where I live and want to stay. Despite what some may think because of this thread I am not some horribly dissatisfied person who wants their government overthrown. I am a person who believes that there is always room for improvement.

BTW, why do those adds not work in the Netherlands?

 

[Zwelgje]

I decided not to post anything here but I just can't resist because I'm so mad about this post by knowltok. What's the matter with you making a thread like this? I guess some people who don't apply to your standards just don't count in your world, well in your world I wouldn't want to live! This will only bring good things to the people who aren't that bad off in the first place and it will bring bad things to the people already falling behind in this society.
And then the basic principles of your ideas: you think that there are people whose opinion is worth more than other's. And to go further this will mean that some people are just higher valued than others, that's fascism and just not right!

 

[knowltok]

Just make it illegal not to vote then. Seems simple enough to me. People can abstain on the ballot if they don't want to vote for anyone. Plenty of places have systems like that.

Perhaps I am tilting and windmills, but the problem with that is that is doesn't get people to care about it or to put thought into it. I would like poeple to take more of an interest in government and the decisions that are made. Not that I am opposed to the idea, I'm just thihnking it may not completely solve the problem.

BTW, what are some of the places that require voting?

 

[Hamlet]

Some countries have a cap on the amount parties can spend in elections, and prevent them from advertising on TV. Britian allocates little equal "slots" to each of the big/medium sized parties on TV, and I think there is a new law about how much parties can spend in elections coming into force soon, too. makes it a lot fairer.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by knowltok
BTW, what are some of the places that require voting?

I only know of one or two. Italy does, and I think Australia, too.

 

[knowltok]

I decided not to post anything here but I just can't resist because I'm so mad about this post by knowltok. What's the matter with you making a thread like this? I guess some people who don't apply to your standards just don't count in your world, well in your world I wouldn't want to live! This will only bring good things to the people who aren't that bad off in the first place and it will bring bad things to the people already falling behind in this society. And to go further this will mean that some people are just higher valued than others, that's fascism and just not right!

I appologize for offending you. I do believe that those falling behind in society for the most part have the ability to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Okay, it looks like in its current form the system does not recieve much support. Well that was the idea of posting it, to get some good discussion and get some viewpoints I had not thought about. For those that think that this system would put the rich in power I would state that that would not be moving them very far.

Like I said earlier I hate that hype, spin, and scare tactics are the way to win an election. My system for getting increased voter responsibility was roundly criticized, so I will concede the point and ask for suggestions for increasing voter responsibility, or statements that Voter responsibility is just fine and doesn't need fixing.

 

[knowltok]

>>Some countries have a cap on the amount parties can spend in elections, and prevent them from advertising on TV. Britian allocates little equal "slots" to each of the big/medium sized parties on TV, and I think there is a new law about how much parties can spend in elections coming into force soon, too. makes it a lot fairer.<<

Does this result in more issue based ads? Is the focus on the policies of the candidates, or on their other atributes (Personal lives, past indiscretions, etc.)

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by knowltok
Does this result in more issue based ads? Is the focus on the policies of the candidates, or on their other atributes (Personal lives, past indiscretions, etc.)

No, it's almost entirely on the issues.