Vox Populi for Civ VI?

[ThunderLizard2]

Is this mod available for Civ VI? I've heard it fixed the lousy AI in Civ V and wondered if it was available to fix the even worse AI in VI.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

As far as I know, Gazebo hasn't started anything for Civ VI.

 

[isau]

The AI fix used in Civ V won't work with Civ VI yet because we can't yet access the core game files we'd need to publish a new DLL. There's hope we'll eventually get access. It took a few years before the were published for Civ V.

 

[WillowBrook]

Until Civ VI is complete, most people don't want to invest in large-scale overhaul mods because future official content will break things. Another expansion is quite likely, and there could be additional DLC and/or a third expansion. As well as patches.

And as already pointed out, there is not yet access to the code, which many believe will be necessary to significantly improve the AI. It's possible the code will not be released until the game is complete.

 

[Leathaface]

I agree that Vox Populi won't be out for VI until it is complete. It would be sweeeet to have it now though.

 

[ashendashin]

No source code = no proper overhauls. Without its release there will never be anything that can change as much as VP, as it not only adds to and rewrites much of the core game structure, it also relied on another modders DLL to start with. It's simply too much of a mess to try achieving anything worthwhile(on VPs scale). There's even a thread in the creation & customization forum about a potential Wheel of Time overhaul for Civ6 but is on hold in hopes for a DLL release. Interest in fixing/overhauling Civ6 definitely exists regardless of DLC/updates.
Gazebo expressed doubt on Firaxis showing their shoddy code(looked like a challenge to me) and continues to work on Civ5.

 

[Leathaface]

I think Firaxis will release the source code for Civ VI, but it'll be 1-2 years after Civ VI: Complete has been out.

 

[Gedemon]

I think Firaxis will release the source code for Civ VI, but it'll be 1-2 years after Civ VI: Complete has been out.

That would be way too late. Who's going to invest time in making a total conversion or complete overhaul knowing that civ7 will be out around the time they've finally coded a first version of their mod?

Civ4 source was released early, R&F (the mod) was developed and released before the first civ4 expansion.

But yeah, it was a different time, dev where closer to modders...

From their interviews and the tools available, I'm afraid that the only mods they want for civ6 are new Civilizations/Leaders (with their uniques) but nothing on the scale of civ4/civ5 larger mods.

 

[RohirrimElf]

That would be way too late. Who's going to invest time in making a total conversion or complete overhaul knowing that civ7 will be out around the time they've finally coded a first version of their mod?

Civ4 source was released early, R&F (the mod) was developed and released before the first civ4 expansion.

But yeah, it was a different time, dev where closer to modders...

From their interviews and the tools available, I'm afraid that the only mods they want for civ6 are new Civilizations/Leaders (with their uniques) but nothing on the scale of civ4/civ5 larger mods.

My experience from civ 5 and civ 6 tells me if civ 7 ever launches. It would take another 2-3 years after launch until it is finally playable.
I`m hoping the tools would be available within a year. But if not there would be at least 4-5 years of playtime left before the next civilization game is good enough in its life cycle to make the last game obsolete.
And even then there are plenty of players who will stick to the old one. Since the launch of civ6 i`ve played at least twice amount of hours on civ 4. And a good bit on civ 5.

 

[ThunderLizard2]

My experience from civ 5 and civ 6 tells me if civ 7 ever launches. It would take another 2-3 years after launch until it is finally playable.
I`m hoping the tools would be available within a year. But if not there would be at least 4-5 years of playtime left before the next civilization game is good enough in its life cycle to make the last game obsolete.
And even then there are plenty of players who will stick to the old one. Since the launch of civ6 i`ve played at least twice amount of hours on civ 4. And a good bit on civ 5.

No way I'd pay a nickel for Civ VII after the Civ VI fiasco for at least 4 years after launch. If I could I'd still be playing Civ V with VP but it won't load on my machine.

 

[acluewithout]

I don't mean this meanly, but this thread has been bugging me a lot...

I don't play Civ 5, VP or otherwise, although I've certainly thought about buying it on special. If people like CiV 5, I'm very supportive. VP is also very impressive. It's amazing a community of people could make something like that. Seems awesome.

But.

No really.

But.

What is it about VP that anyone would want to bring over to Civ 6?

Okay. Maybe the AI fix. But what else?

Vassals maybe? But we might well get them in the next expansion anyway.

Improved City States? But Civ 6 CSs are already better than in Civ 5.

Corporations? Yeah, not super excited about those. The reasons would be a very, very long post, and have a lot to do with the historical importance of companies and freeing up of capital for commercial use and how that is represented. But for present purposes, let's just say I'm not super excited about having a gameplay mechanic based around owing all the mercury or olives.

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but VP seems to be basically directed at fixing problems Civ 5 had. And Civ 5 had a lot of problem (according to what I've read).

I don't think Civ 6 has any of the same problems. In fact, I think Civ 6 has done a really good job of fixing what was wrong with Civ5.

So what would "Vox Pop" for Civ 6 actually mean?

 

[MarigoldRan]

Better AI.

 

[ashendashin]

So what would "Vox Pop" for Civ 6 actually mean?

Rebalancing, rewriting, and expanding Civ 6 according to how interested the community is in doing so. I only keep up to date with Civ6, so I'm not the best person state its problems, but it ain't exactly a gem at the moment. If it is to you, good for you!
The Community Patch(VPs core with the AI stuff) cleans and rewrites a lot of code while expanding the games capability, such as the events system. Vox Populi as a whole is what the community wanted Civ5 to be with AI balance in mind.
There's a bunch of stuff in VP from Civ4 because it so happens that there's some neat features that didn't need to be dropped.

Much of this is limited though. Civ5 is 32bit while 6 is 64bit. That one difference is what will guarantee a better overhaul/expansion if the source code is ever released. Provided that another such project arises, of course.

 

[acluewithout]

@ashendashin So, when people say they want VP for Civ 6, they just mean they want a (1) a community created mod and (2) one that makes Civ 6 "better"?

I mean, I want Civ 6 to be better. So, no argument there.

But is there anything specific to Civ V VP that people want carried over to Civ 6?

 

[ashendashin]

@ashendashin So, when people say they want VP for Civ 6, they just mean they want a (1) a community created mod and (2) one that makes Civ 6 "better"?

I mean, I want Civ 6 to be better. So, no argument there.

But is there anything specific to Civ V VP that people want carried over to Civ 6?

What stands out most is the AI. The Community Patch is what handles the AI programming but when it comes to the balance overhaul it was done with strong AI competition in mind. The patch does wonders for the AI in the base game but you can only get so far with a game design that doesn't account for the computer...or any real balance, for that matter.

So, at its base, the specific thing to carry over is source code access. VP goes way further than feature additions so going over everything in it that could benefit Civ6 is a waste of time unless you actually start porting things...I'd ask Gazebo about that but without the source it's a waste.
What's important is the goals of the project that are not possible in Civ6. There's probably some specific features people pine for but I wouldn't know as most of everything I can think of atm is related to the AI or complete overhauls in some way. Some of the first things I'd imagine for Civ6 is some serious hacking away at the agenda system and cleaning up that terrible tech tree with the eurekas(maybe already possible. Spitballing here as I'm not a programmer. A VP-like project would be able to redo core systems).

 

[ThunderLizard2]

What stands out most is the AI. The Community Patch is what handles the AI programming but when it comes to the balance overhaul it was done with strong AI competition in mind.

This is what I'm most interested in from VP as I'm not going to buy Civ VI with the crappy AI on offer. The other features are gravy.

 

[acluewithout]

... I think maybe something Civ VI could carry over from Vox Pop is better tools for managing large empires.

Civ VI is a bit odd in that it strongly encourages wide play, but then doesn’t really provide many tools for managing a wide empire.

It’s not quite as stark as all that. You can set fringe cities on “gold focus”, slot specialists etc., and then run projects. But there is still a chunk of micro refreshing projects and perhaps building initial infrastructure. VPs Vassal system (as I understand it) was aimed at limiting micro from wide empires given VP made wide play more possible.

Overall, I think VP was born of a need to fix the core gameplay of Civ V. I don’t think Civ VI has anything like the same “core” problems. The only really fundamental problem which is more than just tweaking or gap filling is the AI, but the FXS is improving the AI. I’m not sure the AI problems need a community fix just yet, although I agree the AI needs to get better strategically.

 

[ashendashin]

The only really fundamental problem which is more than just tweaking or gap filling is the AI, but the FXS is improving the AI. I’m not sure the AI problems need a community fix just yet, although I agree the AI needs to get better strategically.

Yeah no. The agenda system is a complete mess that FXS will never address properly and nothing they've done for the AI even comes close to the level of individual patches for VP.
I won't get too deep into what core gameplay needs adjusting as I don't play Civ6(gave it a short stint at release and have been waiting for progress since), but keep in mind that even things you think don't need addressing could need a redo for the simple fact that the AI doesn't work with it at all.

The vassal system is nice and all but VP can still get tedious when going wide. There really needs to be better automation for units. I like 1UPT for tactics but FXS has gotta pull away from making the player click through every individual option.

 

[acluewithout]

@ashendashin I'd forgotten about Agendas, so good point. I’m not sure if the problem with Agendas are the Agendas or how the game visualises them, but I agree they don’t quite work as they are.

I don’t think the Civ VI AI with patches is as good as Civ V with VP. I just meant maybe FXS should have a little more time to fix it before it should get the VP type treatment, because it does seem to be getting incrementally better.

Wide play needs more work to make it less tedious. Ancestral Hall and some changes like that have helped, but the core issue with wideplay is UI and micro. A huge help would be the ability to at least loop projects.

 

[ashendashin]

I'd forgotten about Agendas, so good point. I’m not sure if the problem with Agendas are the Agendas or how the game visualises them, but I agree they don’t quite work as they are.

I don’t think the Civ VI AI with patches is as good as Civ V with VP. I just meant maybe FXS should have a little more time to fix it before it should get the VP type treatment, because it does seem to be getting incrementally better.

I don't think agendas have a place in the game at all. Maybe if they were directly tied to civ abilities and not just some arbitrary attempt at giving the AI personality it could work, but even then I find the concept to be in poor taste for a game of such scale.

Thing is that Firaxis makes small adjustments to an overall terrible AI. The VP treatment practically amounts to rewriting it and adding entirely new functionality as the AI literally doesn't work with swaths of the game. The bugs can be so stupidly simple that you've gotta wonder why they don't even have anyone checking typos in their already simplistic AI yield prioritizing.