W-I-P: Storm Over the Pacifc

[El Justo]

thanks for the remarks Mr. Pitch

the battle cruiser, in general, traded protection for speed. this was for american designs too. so yeah, there is an evident trade-off with these types.

getting the stats right with them, which i think we have in the past, is the key. and of course, there's not just one school of thought on all this stuff so we're always open to smart dialogue

as for me, i just finished adding in all of the resource-based city imp's. both buildings_small and _large pasted and ready, text entries in (no full civp entries though), and into the editor with attributes. still have some other buildings to put in, mainly the nuke ones, some unit autoproducers, and probably some espionage ones.

i think i have a base formula moving forward with the nuclear stuff. i'll let japan try and build the bomb. but she'll have to get to the Uranium resources. and even then, she'll be way behind, infrastructure-wise. nonetheless, there you have it

so this means the US will have a bit of the nuke infrastructure in place at the start. i will probably add a nuke line to the tech tree. not sure yet though. US will have 3 spots in the US to build the nuke infrastructure (ie next to the Uranium resource) : New Mexico (los alamos), Washington state (hanford eng works), and in Tennessee (oak ridge). these were the 3 main sites for the manhattan project. these 3 spots will eventually be able to spawn nukes every so many turns. haven't worked out tight specifics yet. but this is likely the direction i'll take it in the beta tests.

ps-there's one other Uranium resource on the map and it's in Australia.

next up, i'll probably add a few more city imp's and then start adding in japanese sea units.

 

[Delta_Strife]

Yay Sea Units!!!

 

[El Justo]

 

[El Justo]

hi all been busy and making progress over the last weeks. was even able to go late into night this past weekend it's like the old days

here are some snippets of what we've gotten done. by we i mean that Kly has been a busy little beaver

screen grab from the buildings large sheet:

it's showing almost all of the available buildings for the Pacific Islands locations. some of them are my creations, either cobbling together existing gfx or creating them from scratch (from the stalled vietnam project). Vuldacon's stuff mostly and some from Pounder. one from Ukas iirc.

updated resource sheet:

row 1 : first 5 are strat, rest up to Viet Minh are luxes, bonus after that); the flag is a generic one for british crown colonies. this one is new and it will be in 2 spots : Singapore & Hong Kong. have some rough ideas in mind to allow commonwealth civs to go after it. a major goal for british in this theater. so it makes sense.

row 2 : the yellow flag in this row, probably needs to be refined some [bare with me please], is Manchuko, another new one. it is in 3 spots in Manchuria. Australia @ end of row.

row 3 : New Zealand first, British India, Philippines, Rep of China, Red China, and then the 3 other new ones : Thailand, Korea, Viet Minh (final lux)

bonus resources : green one in row 4 is supposed to be Soy Beans. needs rifining. a key cash crop in manchuria.

first versions of the Japanese sea units:

and Japanese subs & escorts :

 

[Delta_Strife]

Looking thru the list of have compiled who made what and what I can make to fill in the gaps of missing units. (Feel free anyone to correct me if I missed anyone that has already been made by someone) A few I had to ask some new people over at subsim for permission to use their models. Most the DD models so hopefully they give approval. After I finish the current space ship I am working on this! I will dive into the IJN and work away to I make all that I listed that I can. The ones I cannot make I do not have the model so if you know where to get them let me know.

Kongo – Tom2050
Fuso – Wyrmshadow
Ise – Tom2050
Nagato – Tom2050
Yamato – Wyrmshadow

Furutaka – Tom250
Myoko – Can make!
Takao – Tom2050
Mogami – Delta_Strife
Tone – Tom2050

Tenryu – Tom2050
Kuma – Tom2050
Nagara – Can make!
Yubari – Can Make!
Sendai – Can make!
Katori – Nope
Agano – Tom2050
Oyodo – Can make!
kitakami – You mean Kuma Class if so can make!

Minekaze – Tom 2050
Kamikaze – Can make!
Mutsuki – Can make!
Fubuki – Can make!
Hatsuharu – Can Make!
Shiratsuyu – Can make!
Kagero – Tom2050
Yugumo – Can make!
Akizuki – Wymshadow

I-1 Can Build
I-15 Can build
I-51 - Can build
I-400 – Wyrmshadow
I-201- Nope

Momi – Can make!
Wakataka – Nope!
Otori –Can make!
Shimushu – Can make!
Etorofu –Nope
Matsu – I thought these were destroyers if they are the same can build!

 

[Mardok]

Hi,

I think the attack and bombard strenght of Myoko Class and Takao Class CA should be equal or even a little bit stronger for Myoko


Myoko:
Armament:
• 10 × 20 cm (7.9 in) guns (5×2)
• 6 × 4.7 in (120 mm) guns (6×1)
• 12 × 24 in (610 mm) torpedo tubes (4×3)

TAKAO
ten 8" (20.3 cm) 50 calibre guns (5x2)
four 4.7" high angle guns(4x1)
eight 24" torpedo tubes (4x2)

 

[Klyden]

Hi,

I think the attack and bombard strenght of Myoko Class and Takao Class CA should be equal or even a little bit stronger for Myoko


Myoko:
Armament:
• 10 × 20 cm (7.9 in) guns (5×2)
• 6 × 4.7 in (120 mm) guns (6×1)
• 12 × 24 in (610 mm) torpedo tubes (4×3)

TAKAO
ten 8" (20.3 cm) 50 calibre guns (5x2)
four 4.7" high angle guns(4x1)
eight 24" torpedo tubes (4x2)

The stats you give for Myoko are "as built". The class underwent reconstruction during the mid 30's where the 7.9 in guns were replaced with 8 in guns, the 4.7 in guns were replaced by 8 5 in guns and the number of torpedos were reduced from 12 to 8.

I will do some double checking to make sure I have then stated correctly for the formulas I am using.

 

[Klyden]

kitakami – You mean Kuma Class if so can make!

Kitakami (and Oi) were originally Kuma class cruisers, but were converted into torpedo cruisers, so became their own sub class. Just after the start of the war, the ships underwent conversion to fast transports. This is how they are set up and will appear in game. (A lot of the torpedo armament remained however).

If there is a graphic that reflects the conversion, that would be great to use rather than the standard Kuma class graphic. If we don't have one and one won't be available, then using a Kuma class graphic would be the next best thing imo.

 

[scratchthepitch]

As modified, just prior to the war, the main and secondary gun armament and torpedo tube armament for the Nachi and Takao classes were the same at 10x8", 8x5" and 16x24" torpedo tubes. So for offensive and bombard stats, they can be considered identical. The Takao class had 1" more side armor protecting the magazines (125mm instead of 100mm). They were capable of about the same speed. At the beginning of the war, the Nachi class carried 8x25mm and 4x13.2mm for close AA. Two of the Takao class, IJN Takao & Atago, also had this close AA armament, while their sisters, IJN Chokai and Maya had 2x40mm and 4x13.2mm.

Edited (Klyden is right, IJN Chokai and Maya did not have their torpedo tubes doubled in number like their sisters, and had only 8 tubes.)

IJN Oi and IJN Kitakami had 4x5.5" and 40x24" torpedo tubes up Autumn of 1942, when they were taken in hand to be modified as transports. Their torpedo tubes being reduced to 8 then. Later, in Jan. 1944, IJN Kitakami had her torpedo tubes increased to 24. This torpedo armament was a powerful weapon, equal to the batteries of 4-5 destroyers. The Japanese started modifying these ships as transports just about the time the Guadalcanal campaign began, there by depriving these ships of what would have been their ideal deployment. Something to think about is allowing the Japanese the early war time option to upgrade all the Japanese light cruisers of the Kuma, Nagara and Sendai classes to the 40xtt mod of the IJN Oi & IJN Kitakami.

 

[El Justo]

@Delta
awesome, bro. thanks for that. very helpful

 

[Klyden]

The stats you give for Myoko are "as built". The class underwent reconstruction during the mid 30's where the 7.9 in guns were replaced with 8 in guns, the 4.7 in guns were replaced by 8 5 in guns and the number of torpedos were reduced from 12 to 8.

I will do some double checking to make sure I have then stated correctly for the formulas I am using.

Ok, I figured out what happen with this to a point after some further research.

The Myoko's and 2 of the Takao class (Takao and Atago) started the war with pretty much the same armament of 10 8" guns, 8 5" guns, 16 24" torpedo tubes (4 quad mounts, 2 to a side with reloads).

Correct offensive stats for these ships should be 26 attack, 24 bombard, 1 range, 4 RoF.

Chokai and Maya got the AA refit before the start of the war, but did not see the increase in torpedo armament and had 8 torpedo tubes (2 twins to a side).

Correct offensive stats for these are 18 attack, 16 bombard, 1 range, 3 RoF.

I will send El Justo a updated sheet and a new sub class will appear (Chokai).

Note that a lot of the ships were refitted in the mid to late 30's and some were refited just before the war started that changed their armament. A lot of sources quote "as built", so it can be misleading.

Also remember these are beta stats. I can easily see changes to RoF depending on how other ships stat out and after we get a chance to "play" with them in game a bit.

 

[El Justo]

quick update :

i was sick over the last few days with a stomach bug, was puking for a bit all is well again, back to work as they say

so i got the govt types entered into the files. it will be almost identical to AoI where there is no switching. each civ will have a unique govt type (although some will have similar if not exact specs).

i added in the first of the dummy/era-none techs. they're useful to lock the govt types and other builds.

last night i got in the special city buildings. these are kind of like the ones from AoI where they give some extra bonuses and act as pre-req's for other buildings. in the case of this scenario, however, the city buildings for the US will act as second palaces (reduces corruption trait under the wonder side). San Francisco, New Orleans, Saint Louis ( Kly's old 'hood btw ), Chicago, and Detroit. i swapped out Atlanta for Detroit at the last minute...since Motown probably contributed more to the war effort than atlanta. the US city buildings are set. they'll grant +2 culture, +2 production and will spawn a 'war materiel' unit (raw materials) every 13 turns. this roughly equals one spawn per quarter (in the fiscal calendar year). so 5 spots for US flag unit spawns. not much, surely not like AoI with the dozens and dozens of raw material outlets. anyhow, US player will have to send these 'war materiel' units out from continental US to the capital in Australia (center of war effort).

also got in the special city buildings for British India and Republic of China. each requires the capital and respective country techs (ie dummy/era-none), and respective govt types. set as city imp and not wonder (unlike US ones). each one will allow for air trade which in effect, will only be open to British India and Republic of China (only 2 civs allowed to trade via air, nobody can trade over sea). point is to try and put some emphasis on the Hump. china needs the hump they'll need the British India resource to build a host of items (units and probably 1 city imp that spawns 'war materiel'). British India otoh...i'm not so sure how to set them up. i may just let this position build a single city imp (like china) that spawns 'materiel' units. not sure yet. what do you guys think ? how would you like to see this dynamic of the theater represented ? keep in mind i do not want to get too hinky with it. simpler is better. willing to think outside the box but not at the expense of simplicity

 

[scratchthepitch]

I have a question with regard to submarines. You guys appear to be using bombard, with a range of 1 for torpedo attack. You also appear to be using the bombard for regular artillery bombard. Will submarines be able to bombard units on shore then with their high torpedo derived bombard factor? I cant remember if there is a way to prevent a sea unit from using its bombard against units on land tiles.

 

[El Justo]

yes, that is the way we've derived the subs. we did it like that for AoI. it has its deficiencies for sure. but it seems to slot in well with the other sea units. only real downside is the land bombardment which we can not restrict. the one real difference though is we emphasize rate of fire for the tubes and less so for the bombardment ratings (as compared to the ships which typically have higher bombardment no's and less rof). there are exceptions of course, like with DDs which have both tubes and guns. but regarding tube only boats, its rof that is highlighted.

 

[Delta_Strife]

For El Justo or Klyden is the Yabari your using meant to retain its single 5 inch guns or are you using the 1944 refit which had those guns taken off in exchange for more AA?

 

[Klyden]

For El Justo or Klyden is the Yabari your using meant to retain its single 5 inch guns or are you using the 1944 refit which had those guns taken off in exchange for more AA?

Thinking you mean Yubari?

In general, the ships have stats for how they were around the start of the scenario (May 1942) or when they were launched (newer construction during the war).

Some exceptions are the Kitakami and Oi. We decided to go ahead and present them in their transport version earlier than they were available as transports (matter of a couple of months). No player would likely voluntarily "update" them from torpedo cruiser to fast transport, but the Japanese high command saw the folly of such a concentration of torpedo tubes on 1 ship and converted them to a need (high speed transport).

In most cases, we don't plan on doing a "updated" version of a ship simply because it doesn't change a ton in terms of game stats while imposing a significant amount of work in both the editor and also finding correct graphics. Most of the refits for the Japanese ships revolve around improving AA strength or some sort of conversion to sea plane tender (highly unsuccessful in the case of the Ise conversion for example and they never operated sea planes like they were supposed to despite the amount of resources and time plowed into converting them).

One big update we will probably be doing involves the US sub fleet and this is more because of the torpedo issue than anything else that would require such a drastic change.

 

[Delta_Strife]

Ok sounds good I will aim to reflect the 1942 time period. Yes I did mean the Yubari damn cold! lol Thanks Klyden

 

[El Justo]

nice!

 

[cemo1956]

Question on your ground troops ?

Have you thought on having LVT-2 Amtraks in the scenario ?
Actually you got the LVT(A)-1 also with better offensive punch.

I didn´t see any mech-infantry units in your unit photo but pray you to consider this vital vehicle perhaps a little into the scenario.
I believe the Marines used it first at Tarawa, and it could be developed later in game, perhaps only on mainland US. That makes it a good and valuable asset for later amphi landings.

It would have move 2 perhaps and a little better defense then marines on foot. Perhaps one would think it should have a bit lesser offensive value so that its main task is to protect the stack with a little armour and def bombardment thanks to the Ma-deuces.
The more tanklike LVT(A)-1 could even be the next in development.

Since most islands are covered in jungle it would hardly never move more than 1 square, even with movement of 2.
A little trickle with what unit should carry it on to the beach, since I think you have the standard Amph crafts carry only foot units.
Sadly Civ doesn´t allow it to actually move from water onto land.
Well I´m sure you got Wyrmshadows fine landing crafts for tanks (LCM), so that could be it.
However on fast attacks it then be left after the standard attack-wave with only foot soldiers.

If you give it a thought I´m sure you can come up with something fun to include this very useful and well known vehicle.

My two cents of ideas....

 

[El Justo]

interesting thanks for sharing. i will take a look. no promises though