Wang Kon: What a bizarre leader choice!

[yavoon]

@Mister Barca: George Washington is not considered in the top five by most presidential historians. Sorry.

And, unless Wang was NOT a leader, then his inclusion is that not bizarre when you put it in the perspective of all the other leaders choosen in the game.

Perhaps if you could divorce, for one moment, your myopic position from amidst the trees of your self-built forest you would see that there was no conspiracy afoot, you point has been recieved, and time has come to accept what is.

Perhaps?

george washington kicked ass and was hugely influential in founding the ideals of the united states. and to even imply otherwise is silly, unfounded and approaching bizzarre.

 

[MisterBarca]

@Mister Barca: George Washington is not considered in the top five by most presidential historians. Sorry.

And, unless Wang was NOT a leader, then his inclusion is that not bizarre when you put it in the perspective of all the other leaders choosen in the game.

Perhaps if you could divorce, for one moment, your myopic position from amidst the trees of your self-built forest you would see that there was no conspiracy afoot, you point has been recieved, and time has come to accept what is.

Perhaps?

1. You are unequivocally wrong on where most historians rank Washington.

Most presidential polls conducted among respected historians have consistently placed Washington among the top 5 presidents. Here is the result of a highly-publicized WSJ poll among 78 pre-eminent historians and politicals scientists in 2001:

1. Washington
2. Lincoln
3. FDR
4. Jefferson
5. TR

http://www.udel.edu/PR/UpDate/02/2/professor.html

While you are free to claim that in your opinion Washington was not one of the greatest presidents, do not try to hoodwink people into thinking that the respectable scholarly community agrees with you.


2. While I may have been strident and perhaps even obnoxious in my criticism of Firaxis's inclusion of Wang, 1) I doubt you know enough about Korean history to claim that Wang's inclusion is "not bizarre," and 2) your accusation of conspiracy-mongering is inaccurate and even ad hominem. Some of my attribution of Firaxis' motives were facetious in order to highlight how absurd the Wang choice was.

But then, given that your sole criterion in picking a leader for Civilization IV is to have led a country, perhaps you wouldn't object if Warren Harding were the sole U.S. leader?

 

[Lars_Domus]

George Washington is not considered in the top five by most presidential historians.

Not only is he consistently ranked among the top 5, but he is also frequently ranked among the top 3 (the competition being Licoln and FDR.)

Back on topic, I was surprised that Sejong wasn't the Korean leader in PTW, and I'm surprised he's not in Warlords. I know little to nothing of Korean history, though, so thanks for the lesson

At least you got an historical figure, even if he didn't acomplish much. My ancestral civ is being represented by a leader we don't even know if ever actually existed, and he's got that stupid horned helmet to boot!

Edit: D'oh! Beaten to the punch on the presidental ranking stuff!

 

[yavoon]

Not only is he consistently ranked among the top 5, but he is also frequently ranked among the top 3 (the competition being Licoln and FDR.)

Back on topic, I was surprised that Sejong wasn't the Korean leader in PTW, and I'm surprised he's not in Warlords. I know little to nothing of Korean history, though, so thanks for the lesson

At least you got an historical figure, even if he didn't acomplish much. My ancestral civ is being represented by a leader we don't even know if ever actually existed, and he's got that stupid horned helmet to boot!

Edit: D'oh! Beaten to the punch on the presidental ranking stuff!

yah but the vikings are cool as all hell so its ok.

oh and to pile on the presidential ranking thing here's wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

 

[MisterBarca]

yah but the vikings are cool as all hell so its ok.

oh and to pile on the presidential ranking thing here's wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

LOL, good stuff. Washington came in top 4 in EVERY POLL since the famous Schlesinger poll in 1948

 

[zx1111]

Tell that to the racial minorities (or mixed Koreans) who DO live in Korea.

Do you know that fewer than half of mixed Korean ancestry even graduate high school? Did you know that Korean citizens of mixed Korean ancestry are de facto or de jure barred from numerous governmental jobs? Heck, the Korean government won't even let citizens of mixed Korean ancestry serve in the military (though some would say that's a something you'd want to avoid anyways).

You really need to meet Koreans of mixed ancestry who have lived in Korea or do some research. The intensity (and the ubiquity) of South Korean racism is simply appalling, and it's one of those aspects of Korea that I am least proud of.

I know that mixed Koreans living in Korea were discrimenated in Korean society. It is unfortunate and shameful thing.
But there is no law that descriminates mixed Koreans. It is outright false that they are de facto or de jure barred from governmental jobs. Government job is one of respected and highly competed job position in Korean society.
It is not matter of his race but matter of qualification.
There is no law against minority in Korean society as I am aware of. It is not because that Korean society is generous to minority but because there is no sizable racial minoritie group in Korean society. Mixed Korean are so rare in Korean society that I have never met them in person in my entre life except seeing them on TV or newspaper.
Only goverment rule regarding mixed Korean I am aware is that they are "exampt" from mandatory military draft. It is not bad thing. Most young Korean male also want to be exampted form the military draft.
It is to prevent potential social problem in armed force in xenophobic Korean society. It is not discriminating them. It is protecting and preventive measure. Even orphans and female are also "exampt" from military service. Is it descrimination against orphans and female?
And even the rule is now changed. Mxied Korean now can 'volunteeer' to serve in armed force if they wish to.

 

[yavoon]

Even orphans are also "exampt" from military service.
It is descriminating against orphans?

yes. this post contains the required number of letters.

 

[zx1111]

yes. this post contains the required number of letters.

No. it is privilige or compensation not discremenation. Poor people who earns less than some income amount are exampt from labour-tax and even gets government subsidary. Is it discrimination against poor people?

 

[Older than Dirt]

So orphans get a free ride in Korea but bastards have to fight? And I thought we had stupid laws in the USA!

 

[Chamaedrys]

So orphans get a free ride in Korea but bastards have to fight? And I thought we had stupid laws in the USA!

As I understand it the mixed Koreans are although free from the draft.

Btw.: In my country you get a free ride If you:

-have 2 older brothers
-get married
-smoke cannabis

 

[Feyd Rautha]

My own little interpretation of why Wang Kon was chosen for the leader of Korea:

Game Designer: Well sir, we have a few ideas for which leaders to include in the new expansion. Hannibal in Carthage obviously, and we were thinking of either Lief Eriksson or Ragnar for the Vikings...

Game Exec: Ooo... Ragnar, I like that... it sounds very intimidating

Advertising VP: It tested well in our focus groups. Even though they didn't know he was an actual Viking leader the name itself tested higher on the "Warlord-O-Scale" we've worked up.

Game Designer: We're a bit stumped on which leader to include for Korea. There are a few very good historical options such as Sejong, Yi Song-gye, and Kwang-gae-to...

Game Exec: Hooby whatsit gambo tobo? Listen. We can't go releasing a bunch of foreign language material on our American playerbase. We'll lose em left and right. I mean we already had this discussion in relations to that Chinese leader... whatshisname?

Advertising VP: (Checking his reports) Qin Shi Huang

Game Exec: Yeah... him. (Looking at list of names) What about this one... Wang Kon. See... easy to palate for the American ear and we have a leader on your list!

Game designer: Well sir... he was probably the last choice historically we'd have gone with, but you did say a dozen names...

Game Exec: Well, sorry, but that's the one... Do you concur?

Advertising VP: We'll have to run the numbers some more, but from what I see here Mr. Kon seems to be testing well...

Game Designer: Actually, Kon was his first name...you see...

Game Exec: Well, that's all for now folks. I've got a tee time I've got to make and it looks like we're all on track here! Meeting dismissed.

****************************

See... it's nothing but us ugly Americans crapping on the world again

 

[Louis XXIV]

Then again, Sejong doesn't seem hard to pronounce. He seems like he could be Creative, Protective (Protective more for the fact that the game needs protective civs, but it seems like it might fit. Creative definately seems to fit for him). Just a thought, though (I probably wouldn't have both, though, since they don't seem all that different, although I'd probably have said the same about Julius and Augustus).

 

[zx1111]

So orphans get a free ride in Korea but bastards have to fight? And I thought we had stupid laws in the USA!

No. High school dropout and below (middle school) get lower score in Korean armed force draft examination.
They should get first grade in physical score to be drafted in armed force service.
Middle school dropout and elemetary school gradugate are exampt from military draft.
Idiot are not permitted in Korean armed force.

Korean armed force is one of most highly educated army in the world.
Can you imagine army consist of more than half of the drafted soldiers are collage attendants or collage graduates ( full 4 year collage only, not including 2 year vocational collage)?

 

[Koelle]

crazy, crazy country. Wasting your resources just to fight with your own people!

 

[Chamaedrys]

No. High school dropout and below (middle school) get lower score in Korean armed force draft examination.
They should get first grade in physical score to be drafted in armed force service.
Middle school dropout and elemetary school gradugate are exampt from military draft.
Idiot are not permitted in Korean armed force.

Sorry, but...
Would it not be more clever to draft the middle schoolies and let the smart guys do some science or boost the economy?

 

[yavoon]

No. it is privilige or compensation not discremenation. Poor people who earns less than some income amount are exampt from labour-tax and even gets government subsidary. Is it discrimination against poor people?

it prevents their integration into society and provides a platform of backlash against them. keeps them as outsiders and maintains low level resentment among the "fully bodied" population.

and yes its discrimination.

and the "privelage" thing was used in america when women wanted inroads into the armed forces. funny how they didnt see being barred from participation as a privelage.

 

[Armorydave]

@Mister Barca: George Washington is not considered in the top five by most presidential historians. Sorry.

This statement is false. Not only is Washington considered to be amongst the top 5 presidents by most historians, many consider him to be the top president.

As for the OP, I agree that he is a lousy choice. I suspect a combination of convenience, ease of learning his name and the relationship between his name and the Western name for the country all played a part. Since Korea is only included because of the disproportionate number of Korean video game players you would think they would have added a leader that would have made those players happy. I am sure westerners don't care either way so they might as well chose the leader Koreans would have deemed most appropriate.

Edit: Heh looks like I was a little late on the Washington comments.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Wang Kon was the Korean leader in Civ III. So they were just consistent.

 

[bfordyce]

My guess is that maybe there were no Koreans on the development team, so they pulled a name out of the hat?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, I doubt they have any Aztecs on the team either.