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Wang Kon: What a bizarre leader choice!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by MisterBarca, Jul 7, 2006.

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  1. suspendinlight

    suspendinlight Prince

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    While this discussion is interesting, I just wanted to point out on a practical note that it would probably only take a few minutes of modding to change the name of the leader in-game to whatever you would like.
     
  2. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    It is just complaint for complaint only.
    Then what do you think about "equal oppotunity" program of U.S which gives some advantage to miniorities, females, and handicapped. Is it conspiracy of the "majority" who does not want the minorities integrated to the society?

    According to your argument, female and hadicapped shuould be drafted for mandatory military service to help them to be integrated into "full body" population.

    And females are not barred from military service. Female can apply for military service in Korea armed force. They are just exampt from mandatory duty, not barred. Though they are not assigned in active combat duty infantry, Korean armed force have female naval officers and air pilots and numerous female officers already in military for more than 50 years. One of the heroins of recent popular Korean TV drama is a female army captain and the drama was not military drama, just a plain soap opera. About 10% of military cardets are female. There is two star female generals too.

    Korean military draft system is smarter than that. Collge graduates with some techincal qualification can be eligible for the examption if they work for 3 years in manufacturing/industrial sector/IT industry, research lab, but not service sector. There is no disadvantage in work condition or wage for them.
    Smart guys from engineering collage gets most benefts from it.
     
  3. yavoon

    yavoon King

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    whats happening in america(attempts to compensate for previous racism) and whats happening in korea(racism in its current form) are not the same. and while I dont like some of whats happening its a different beast then whats going on in korea.

    the rest of ur post is kinda rambly.
     
  4. necrolyte

    necrolyte Warlord

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    They should have picked Glorious Leader! Kim Il Sung! Illustrious father of the Korean people! Or his Glorious Son, Kim Il Jung! Who was born on a mountaintop at the end of a Glorious Rainbow!

    :p :p :p
     
  5. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    I already said that mixed Korean can apply for military service if they wish.
    So it is thing of the past just like US.
    What a absurd sophistry and yammer. Do you think your rambling make any sense?
    Grow up!
     
  6. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

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    Very true.

    If you dont like Firaxis' choices, mod your game to what you want.
     
  7. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    I think that "Kung yae" wold be cooler and better choice than Wang Kon.
    Kung yea was real founder of Koryo dynasty. He began revolt against Shilla (old dynasty) and found his nation and become a King. Wong Kon was just a young general under Kung yae's command.
    But Wang Kon was a member of affluent and influential family. After long years of deliberation and conspiracy, Wang Kon succeeded in persuading other nobilitities to revlot against Kung yae and expelled him and become a King himself.
    Kung yae was more poplular among general people of that time and charsmatic than Wang Kon. Kung yea was Buddhist monk with many followers. He was belived to be Heaven-sent messiah who came the world to save the suffering people of that times.
    He was also very competant millitary leader and won many battle with Shilla with untrained and smaller revolt army.
    He was a abandoned prince ( as a baby) of Shilla dynasty with dramatic life stroy. He lost his left eye when he was abandoned and always wore black eye patch.

    Imagine how cool he would look. A bald revolutionist-monk-general who is charsmatic and mystic, wearing a cool eye patch!

    A Korean historical drama depicting 'Wang Kon' was broadcasted few years ago on TV.
    The main figure was, of course, "Wang Kon" but Kung Yae was much more popular among Korean TV viewers than the main figure.
    His revolutionary and dramatic life story and charismatic figure deeply impressed Korean people.
     
  8. yavoon

    yavoon King

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    haha funny last part of post.
     
  9. colontos

    colontos King

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    zx1111: You are defending racism, a racist system, and quite possibly are a racist yourself.

    As Barca stated, the level of racism in Korean society is not comparable to any other similarly developed country. It is ubiquitous (to use a recent buzz word in Korea) and worse, it is unquestioned.

    As a foreigner who lived in Korea, I could give MANY anecdotal examples. I won't, though. I'm also married to a Korean, and can attest that interracial marriage is looked down on when it involves a foreign man and a Korean woman. Marriages the opposite way are much more tolerated...

    but the kids are screwed either way. Interracial kids are not accepted. Sorry. They were completely barred from military service until 2005. Now they can volunteer. Sound good, right? No. Try getting a job in Korea after having not done military service (as a male, obviously). Impossible. You described the case of Steve Yoo, who had a legal choice to serve in the military or not, and made a perfectly reasonable choice not to. And how did the Koreans react? By 'turning their back on him." So how about the mixed race fellows who were unable to serve or chose not to?

    Your examples about women and disabled folks not being drafted are off base. In no country are women conscripted. One could argue that this is discrimination, but the issue is complicated and I won't go into it here. Disabled folks are not drafted for obvious reasons. Lucky them, in Korea they get to face similar discrimination for not having served in the military.
     
  10. MisterBarca

    MisterBarca Prince

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    I've given up on the guy. The guy's obviously been brain-washed by the heinous nationalist education in Korea and lacks any kind of perspective. He doesn't realize that virtually any foreigner familiar with Korea is disgusted by the country's flagrant, revolting, thoroughgoing racism--the type of racism that makes Japan's own notorious variant of racism seem mild and the very example par excellence of toleration.

    And he chides others for engaging in "sophistry" when he says that Koreans are just "xenophobic" and not "racist," LOL!

    I do think there is a delicious irony in that he is advocating that Goong Ae to be the Korean leader though. Goong Ae would be even worse than Wang Kon. The guy was certifiably insane (he killed his wife, among other women of the court, by repeatedly penetrating her vagina with a burning cudgel and killed all his children as well) and one of the most bloodthirsty rulers in Korean history. The shockingly violent character of Goong Ae's rule is precisely why the Tae-bong nobles replaced Goong Ae with a sissy in Wang Kon.

    In fact, Goong Ae sounds a lot like Kim Jong Il. I bet this numbnut is an admirerer of Kim Jong Il as well and thinks the U.S. is the author of every ills visited upon the Korean peninsula in the modern times. :mischief:
     
  11. MisterBarca

    MisterBarca Prince

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    Seriously, rabid Korean nationalists like Zx1111 think he is being patriotic and helping Korea's cause by defending (by lies) the indefensible.

    But in reality people like him are the reason why Korea won't change.

    And it's why websites like this exists:

    http://www.occidentalism.org/

    (scroll to the section titled "racist industrial complex" [a moniker for Korea], and read some of the stuff--esp. when Korean businessmen publicly made fun of the Hiroshima bombings with the Japanese Ambassador in attendance at an official function)

    And why prominent Blogs that deal with the region are awash with entries like this:

    http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2006/02/korean_racism_i.html

    (entry titled "Korean racism is something else")

    http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2006/04/the_nazi_roots_.html

    (entry titled "the Nazi roots of Korean racism")

    If Zx1111 would like to defend these things or gloss over it and say Rome is indeed not burning, then he can go ahead. But I think I have the right to call him a "min-jok bae-sin-ja."
     
  12. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Well moving back to the OP, assuming Firaxis wanted to do Nothing more than a Name Change, Something they Could do in the first release patch without having to worry about anything... well there would be civilopedia text to rewrite, but nothing that would affect the game....

    What is the best Korean Leader that would fit the Traits, Protective and Financial? (a pure Warlord wouldn't work, missing the Financial part, but probably a strong peaceful leader would work).
     
  13. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    You are confusing xenophobic tendancy of Korean people with racism.
    I already acknowleged that Koreans in general are rather xenophobic and abhore any foreigher. It is due to their historical memory and their lack of experience in living togather with foreigh people.
    So they are less tolerent and suspicious on ALL foreign people regardless of thier race.
    This includes not just western people/race but also to Chinese, Japanese and other Eastern people. If Korean was real racist, they should act differently depending on race. But Korean attutide is not so. They abhore *all* foreign people. This is xenophobia but not racism.
    I think that real racism should involve some percieved judgement of superiority/inferiority toward some race.
    But I have never implied such judgenment.
    Most western people are well accustomed to the notion of race or racism because of their history of rampant racism or racial discrimination in their society and history.
    But for Koreans, the concept of racism or "race" itself was very alian concept to most Korean because there was no "race" among Korean. The notion of race was thing imported recently from Westerner to Koreans. There was no known case of racial conflict in Korean history. The Korean word for "race" gives similar feeling of animal 'species' or primitive feeling to most Korean.
    All people other than Korean was all "foreigner" or "alien" or "westerner" to be specific regardless of their race. Most Korean rarely meets any other race than themsevels, Then how can most Korean be racist?
    For foreigner from the country where racism was rampant, this Korean xenophobia toward forigner may be mistakean as racism, but it has nothing to do with their race, as long as they are foriegner and potential threat to Korea. It is due to their ignorance of Korean society and culture and wetern-centric view of the world.
    Your attitude of labling all Koreans are "racist" are typical view of real "racist" who does not understands difference in culture and history.
    If you insist xenophobic attitude is also racism, I have nothing to say about such absurd sophistry.

    PS) On examption on military service.
    I explained that many boys from engineering collage also get examption from military service,
    They are much larger in number than orphan or mixed Korean, but I have never heard that they are discriminated in job market.
    And It is outright lie that job applicant without military service experince are handicapped in job market consdidering their oppotunity/time to gain work experence for that period.
    Of couserse, there is some tendancy which prefers applicant with military service experence depending on job if both are equally inpexperenced in any job.
    But generally, applicant with 3 years of non-military work experence is much perfered to a applicant with military service experience but with no job experience in Korean job market. Former has higher expected life-long accumulated income.
    Got it?
     
  14. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    What a naive view on the history..
    The bizarre record was wrtiten by the rebel and the winner, Wang Kon dyansty to justify their rebel against and expel of Kung Ae.
    Will you write that your opponent was great and belovd leader by the people?
    The mischief record of Kung Ae was largely discounted and considered as fabrication and exaggeration of Koryo dynasty by most main stream Korean historians.
    How such tyrant and insane leader can get support of people and other nobilities in first palce for long time?
    Most non-written folklore and lengend about Kung Ae say otherwise.
    People of that time really felt sad and sorry about death of Kung Ae and his dream.
    And Don't blame of me with what I did not say. It is childish and immature manner in discussion. Grow up, baby..
     
  15. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    Do you think these site are fair, level-opinioned site? and Do you agree with expressed hatrad toward Korean in these sites?
    If then, you are genuine racist.
    These are typical anti-Korean site, the site doesn't deny it. These are just one of numerous pro-racist gabage site of the internet which promotes hatrad toward some race just like many neo Nazi site.
    Are you Neo-Nazist?
    You can find any anti- site like anti-Japan, anti-American, anti-Beatles, anti-Britney, Anti-Computer-game or anti-whatever on internet and most of them are not supported by main stream people.
     
  16. MisterBarca

    MisterBarca Prince

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    I realize that history is written by the winners. So the critical intellect must be able to examine all evidence. Hence, though the Yijo Silok (the official record of the Yi dynasty) record both Yeon-san-goon and Gwang-hae-goon as evil kings, historians now say that Gwang-hae-goon was actually one of the greatest kings of the Yi dynasty.

    However, such a revision has NOT occurred with Goong Ae, and you are pulling "most mainstream Korean historians" claim totally out of your arse. Why don't you e-mail your claim to koreanstudies@koreaweb.ws (a discussion group of English-speaking Korean scholars where premier Korean historians regularly participate)? I will make a bet you'd be laughed out of existence.

    Further, you ask: "How such tyrant and insane leader can [sic] get support of people [sic] and other nobilities in first palce [sic] for long time?" And you are calling me "naive"? LOL.

    First, plenty of insane tyrants have been supported by the people. Ever heard of Hitler?

    Second, I did not say that Goong Ae was always an insane tyrant. But power tends to corrupt or derange some people. This happened to Goong Ae.

    But of course, I assume you will say that every overthrown insane tyrant were saints who were wrongfully villified by historians?

    Finally, it says volumes about your historical awareness that you rely on "folklore and legend."

    So I take it that you think--for instance--Dan Goon really existed or that the king of Silla came out of a bird's egg?
     
  17. MisterBarca

    MisterBarca Prince

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    Good try.

    Occidentalism may be an anti-Korean site, but the site is highly respected and linked by many Korean Blogs themselves. As for Foreign Dispatches, it isn't an anti-Korean site. It's an international affairs Blog and a highly erudite and original one at that.

    Besides, even if you are right and these guys are intent purely on besmirching our dan-il-min-jok, do you deny that these racist incidents occurred? Or do you simply think that they are no big deal?

    Finally, I realize that your command of English is deplorable, and that's part of the problem, but you have to realize that "race" does not always refer to the color pigmentation of an individual. The term race is also interchangeable with nationality. That is, you can not only speak of the "white" or "black" race, but the "Korean" or the "Japanese" race as well.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/race

    "race1 Audio pronunciation of "race" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rs)
    n.

    1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
    2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race."


    So your repeated claim that Koreans are not racist but merely "xenophobes" is founded on your misunderstanding of the term "racist." If Koreans despise or, in your terms "abhor" non-Koreans, then Koreans are racists.
     
  18. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    I am also critical and skeptical to these record and discount these as myth.
    These story was recorded in same book which recorded the bizzarre thing about Kung-Ae. Why do you believe record of Kung-Ae and does not belive record of Dan Goon which was recorded in same book?
    What is your criteria why you accepts one record and don't accepts another?
     
  19. zx1111

    zx1111 Warlord

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    I did not mean "race" as color of skin. Japanese or Chinse are also different race from Korean.
    And racism always includes some perception of "superiority" of their own race toward other race.
    How can Korea, which was invaded or colonized, oppressed by Japan/China and always in inferior position in economy, military power, population, land mass, culture, can develop superior feeling toward Japan or Chinese people , let alone Western people?
    On the contrary, low self-esteem of Korean people was always problem, not (false) feeling of superiority toward other race. It has never been a problem.
    It is inevitable that Korean people shares some dislike aginst Japanese people considering recent history of colonization. Chinese people also hates Japanses on same reason.

    Do you really believes that Korean people considers themselves as superior people than Japanese, Chinese, or Western people? Korean people does not have such belief like Jewish people.

    According to your argument, American Indian people were more racist people than the English people from Old Continent. Is it right?
     
  20. Randolph

    Randolph Warlord

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    A good friend of mine was stationed in Korea (American Soldier), and he apparently absolutely loved it. He's always saying how much he misses it and how he wants to go back.
     
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