Wang Kon: What a bizarre leader choice!

[Louis XXIV]

Thanks, but I'd advise against relying on Wikipedia overmuch. As you probably know, Wikipedia has no quality control, and any troll can insert whatever he wants in there. In fact, entries for many prominent Korean historical figures or incidents have been hijacked by rabid Korean nationalists who go too far.

Well, it depends on the subject. If they say the number of people with the name "Wang" in the South Korean census of 23,447 and they provide a link, I'd be more likely to believe it. Seriously, who would want to mislead people about this subject?

 

[MisterBarca]

Seriously, who would want to mislead people about this subject?

I don't think you have an idea of the irrational character of South Korean nationalism I can perfectly imagine a Korean "netizen" claiming that there are no Wangs in Korea to prove that Koreans are racially pure ("dan-il-min-jok" nonsense).

 

[azzaman333]

Explain yourself a bit?

Well, i know close to nothing about Korean history, but i was just thinking that maybe Wang Kon was the Korean leader who was most easily fitted into the leader traits.

Or Firaxis are too lazy to find infomation about other leaders.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I doubt it had to do with traits because he was the leader for Civ3 also (and civs, not leaders, had traits then).

 

[Koelle]

I don't think you have an idea of the irrational character of South Korean nationalism I can perfectly imagine a Korean "netizen" claiming that there are no Wangs in Korea to prove that Koreans are racially pure ("dan-il-min-jok" nonsense).

Correct me if i'm wrong but was Korea not invaded numerous times by the Chinese, the Mongols, the Japanese and the American? And while their troops stationed there, they had to do something or find something to do, right? So it is ignorant to say "dan il min jok" whatever it means. And when someone claims that they are racially pure, i wouldn't call them nationalists but racists:thumbdown

 

[azzaman333]

I doubt it had to do with traits because he was the leader for Civ3 also (and civs, not leaders, had traits then).

I play Civ 3 frequently, so i think i know that. Also, that was why i said Firaxis is too lazy to dig up info on a nother leader.

 

[Louis XXIV]

That seems possible. I think they just decided that, for the most part, they were happy with what they had. They did change the Ottomans, though (and Carthage's uu is different as well).

 

[zx1111]

Correct me if i'm wrong but was Korea not invaded numerous times by the Chinese, the Mongols, the Japanese and the American? And while their troops stationed there, they had to do something or find something to do, right? So it is ignorant to say "dan il min jok" whatever it means. And when someone claims that they are racially pure, i wouldn't call them nationalists but racists:thumbdown

Oh yeah, Koelle again...
No people on earth is racially "pure" in your sense.
Even people lived in isolated island like Japan is not racially pure at all.
No foreign soldier have ever landed in Japan throughout all known history until end of WW-II.
But she has major racial problems among themsevles like "Chosenzin( which means Korean living in Japan) and "Ainu" people. Most Korean living in Japan are descendants of drafted soldier and worker from Korea.
Japan had enforced and coerced them to serve as soldier or worker for Japan in World War II and now Japan descriminates them racially.

On the contrary, Korea is virtually free from racial problems. There is minor "regionalism" problem among them (especially in politics). Nealy every country has such a regionalism in more or less degree. But it is not racial problem at all.
Nealy every Korean seriously belives that they are proud member of "Korean race" or descedants of "Dankoon" race or "Bae dal min jok".
Can you take another example of nation/society which has population larger than 10 million people but has no racial problem? (Korea is about 60 M )
So Korean society is very successful in unifying their people as one and entitled to be called as "Dan il min jok".
Even exiled Prince from Viet Nam was welcomed in Korea and his descendants condsider themsevles as Korean.
There was even a Japanese samurai in 15C, who come to Korea for the invasion war but defected and later neutralized to Korean.
He was also welcomed by Korean and he was entitled Korean nobility class.
It is not matter of blood or lineage but matter of how they percieve themselves as "Korean" and they are willing to fight for Korean people or not.
There was a very famous pop-star singer "Yoo". He was born in Korea. He went and lived in U.S. when his Korean parents immigrated to U.S. Then he returned to Korea and become very famous and hugely popular super star singer.
But he evaded milltary draft (mandatory for nealy all healty Korean male) by applying for U.S. citizenship,
Korean people turned back from him. Korean people no longer considers him as Korean despite of his Korean blood.
Korean now refers him as "Steve Yoo" and considers him as foreigner who can speak fluent Korean language.

This "unity" is also strong background why they could remain as independent race/country inspite of numerous invasiona from China. All other race/nation around China were absorbed or merged into China and Chinese people by millitary invasion or culturally, politically, or racially. Only Korean pople has withstood such a strong cultural / racial gravity of China.

For the matter of Chinese, the Mongols, the Japanese and the American soldier fought in Korea,
What do you think about Chinese, French, Amercan and Korean soldier fought in Viet Nam?

 

[MisterBarca]

Well, i know close to nothing about Korean history, but i was just thinking that maybe Wang Kon was the Korean leader who was most easily fitted into the leader traits.

Or Firaxis are too lazy to find infomation about other leaders.

Unfortunately your initial suspicion is incorrect. In fact, even the given traits "financial" and "protective" does not at all fit Wang Kon. A better trait pair for him would be "lucky" and "weak," but I guess Firaxis didn't want to invent those traits.

 

[MisterBarca]

Correct me if i'm wrong but was Korea not invaded numerous times by the Chinese, the Mongols, the Japanese and the American? And while their troops stationed there, they had to do something or find something to do, right? So it is ignorant to say "dan il min jok" whatever it means. And when someone claims that they are racially pure, i wouldn't call them nationalists but racists:thumbdown

Yes, Koreans are not racially "pure." It's one of those pernicious Korean national myths.

 

[MisterBarca]

O

On the contrary, Korea is virtually free from racial problems. There is minor "regionalism" among them (especially in politics). Nealy every country has such a regionalism in more or less degree. But it is not racial problem at all.
Nealy every Korean seriously belives that they are proud member of "Korean race" or descedants of "Dankoon" race or "Bae dal min jok".
Can you take another example of such nation/society which is so racial problem-free and has population larger than 10 million people? (Korea is about 60 M )
So Korean society is very successful in unifying their people as one and entitled to be called as "Dan il min jok".
?

I am sorry, but you are clueless.

In the first place, Korea doesn't have a big racial problem because it has not traditionally had a large racial minority. Contrast this with the Korean minorities in Japan, for instance.

Second, to the extent there are racial minorities in Korea, they face the level of discrimination practically unheard of in any advanced economy. Even as a Korean proud of his heritage, I can tell you that Korea is probably the most racist society among the advanced economies. Have you ever lived in Korea or discussed these issues with foreigners living in Korea or, worse yet, Koreans of mixed race?

I can refer you to numerous articles and studies regarding the incredibly racist character of Korean society as a whole.

But perhaps the best illustration may have to do with the story of Hines Ward, the Black-Korean Super Bowl MVP and his Korean mother.

After Ward won the Super Bowl, the South Korean government suddenly (and shamelessly) invited Ward and his mother to Korea to honor their achievements abroad as Koreans.

Ward's mother initially refused.

Why?

She said she never wanted to go to Korea again, because when she was there last time with Ward, people on the streets constantly spit at her and Ward.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

I can suggest that Firaxis leader choice is logically motivated - his face model similar to already used so Firaxis can do only half work!
Look at him part of khan, part of a bit starved mao.

 

[zx1111]

I am sorry, but you are clueless.
....
Second, to the extent there are racial minorities in Korea, they face the level of discrimination practically unheard of in any advanced economy. Even as a Korean proud of his heritage, I can tell you that Korea is probably the most racist society among the advanced economies. Have you ever lived in Korea or discussed these issues with foreigners living in Korea or, worse yet, Koreans of mixed race?
...

I agree that Korean as a whole are rather xenophobic, but it is not racial problem. They are destined to become xenophobic because of historical memory of numerous foreign invasions and they rarely meets foreign people among themsleves. But xenophbic is different from racial problem and it has nothing to do with their claim of "dan il min jok".

 

[yavoon]

I agree that Korean as a whole are rather xenophobic, but it is not racial problem. They are destined to become xenophobic because of historical memory of foreign invasion. But this is different from racial problem.

no its not.

 

[MisterBarca]

I agree that Korean as a whole are rather xenophobic, but it is not racial problem. They are destined to become xenophobic because of historical memory of numerous foreign invasions and they rarely meets foreign people among themsleves. But xenophbic is different from racial problem and it has nothing to do with their claim of "dan il min jok".

Tell that to the racial minorities (or mixed Koreans) who DO live in Korea.

Do you know that fewer than half of mixed Korean ancestry even graduate high school? Did you know that Korean citizens of mixed Korean ancestry are de facto or de jure barred from numerous governmental jobs? Heck, the Korean government won't even let citizens of mixed Korean ancestry serve in the military (though some would say that's a something you'd want to avoid anyways).

You really need to meet Koreans of mixed ancestry who have lived in Korea or do some research. The intensity (and the ubiquity) of South Korean racism is simply appalling, and it's one of those aspects of Korea that I am least proud of.

 

[drkodos]

I can suggest that Firaxis leader choice is logically motivated - his face model similar to already used so Firaxis can do only half work!
Look at him part of khan, part of a bit starved mao.

I think this should not be underestimated. There seems to be a very narrow band (no pun intended) of head shapes & styles in their pallette.

 

[Goodgimp]

MisterBarca:

First of all, I just wanted to say thanks for the insights to Korean history. While I'm a big fan of Chinese history, Korea's past is not one I have been much exposed to - so thanks

It was mentioned in a previous post that perhaps Firaxis chose the leader because the name was easier to pronounce. When you factor in a large American audience for the game and the amount of localization for various languages that takes place, that might not be such an unreasonable factor in their decision-making process.

As others have mentioned (Montezuma, for instance), not all leaders were chosen for historical prowess, but rather recognizability as well as how well they will mesh with the game. There may be a shortage of personality types, and I'm not just referring to the Traits each leader has, but rather how they behave in game.

George Washington may not have been the greatest general, the wisest leader, or most charming politician, but he did rule over a symbolic moment in American history, so he gets the nod over several more capable American choices.

Perhaps it was a combination of several factors that led Firaxis to choose such an odd leader: in-game behavior, personality traits, ruled over an arguably symbolic moment, and yes, a name easier to pronounce, remember, and most likely translate. Given how designing Civilization almost requires at least an interest in world history, I cannot imagine that it was mere lazyness that prompted them to make the choice they did.

That being said, I do understand where you are coming from and where their choice would wrankle you!

 

[MisterBarca]

MisterBarca:

First of all, I just wanted to say thanks for the insights to Korean history. While I'm a big fan of Chinese history, Korea's past is not one I have been much exposed to - so thanks

It was mentioned in a previous post that perhaps Firaxis chose the leader because the name was easier to pronounce. When you factor in a large American audience for the game and the amount of localization for various languages that takes place, that might not be such an unreasonable factor in their decision-making process.

As others have mentioned (Montezuma, for instance), not all leaders were chosen for historical prowess, but rather recognizability as well as how well they will mesh with the game. There may be a shortage of personality types, and I'm not just referring to the Traits each leader has, but rather how they behave in game.

George Washington may not have been the greatest general, the wisest leader, or most charming politician, but he did rule over a symbolic moment in American history, so he gets the nod over several more capable American choices.

Perhaps it was a combination of several factors that led Firaxis to choose such an odd leader: in-game behavior, personality traits, ruled over an arguably symbolic moment, and yes, a name easier to pronounce, remember, and most likely translate. Given how designing Civilization almost requires at least an interest in world history, I cannot imagine that it was mere lazyness that prompted them to make the choice they did.

That being said, I do understand where you are coming from and where their choice would wrankle you!

Goodgimp,

Thanks for your considered reply. But I don't think I have sufficiently conveyed to you precisely just how bizarre the choice of Wang Kon is.

In fact, the two examples you list as comparably bad choices actually illuminate how bad the Wang Kon choice was:

1. While you were right that George Washington is not considered the best U.S. president, he is generally considered the top 5. Further, more important, he was the first president and often called the father of this country. He has, as you say, a "symbolic" importance for America.

In contrast, Wang Kon is not considered among the top 5 Korean leaders. As I have said, he was an exceptionally weak leader beholden to the nobility who put him in as a figure head king. More important, Wang Kon has no symbolic importance to the degree that Washington has, because he was not the father of Korea in any conceivable sense. "Koryo," the dynasty Wang "founded," was not the first Korean dynasty. "Old Chosun" was the first Korean dynasty. Nor was Koryo the first Korean dynasty to unify the peninsula: "Unified Silla" was.

2. You mentioned that Montezuma might have been put in because he is probably the best-known leader of his civilization in the West, not necessarily the best.

But even under this paltry criterion, the choice of Wang doesn't make sense. There are plenty of Korean leaders who are far better known in the West. Twentieth century leaders such as Park Chung-hee and Syngman Rhee are far better known than Wang. And as several posts on this thread demonstrates, among older leaders, Sejong is better known than Wang.

There is another issue where Firaxis may have chosen Montezuma that doesn't apply to Wang. In the case of Montezuma, my understanding is that there aren't detailed records of older Central and South American civilizations. In contrast, Korean history has a rich tradition of written history. For instance, there is a court-kept record of the entire Chosun dynasty that painstakingly details everything that happened during the dynasty's duration from 1392 to 1910: the Yijo Silok. So there are plenty of material that Firaxis can draw from. The fact that they didn't do their due dilligence in such a circumstance is really insulting.

As I have said, how would you feel if John Hancock were the sole representative of the U.S. in this game?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Maybe your voice will have an impact for Civ5

Firaxis has been good at listening to fans (especially fans who are knowledgable about a subject). But it is a little late to change it for this game, though.

You could always mod a better leader, though.

 

[drkodos]

@Mister Barca: George Washington is not considered in the top five by most presidential historians. Sorry.

And, unless Wang was NOT a leader, then his inclusion is that not bizarre when you put it in the perspective of all the other leaders choosen in the game.

Perhaps if you could divorce, for one moment, your myopic position from amidst the trees of your self-built forest you would see that there was no conspiracy afoot, you point has been recieved, and time has come to accept what is.

Perhaps?