WANTED: more interesting terraforming

[EscapedGoat]

The terraforming in CIV is too simple. Let's face it: most of the time, one improvement is correct for one tile. Hills=mine, plains=farm, grassland=cottage, forest=lumber mill. Sometimes you use watermills, and unless you have state property, you NEVER use workshops. Not to speak of the special resources, there one improvement is allways correct. That's boring. I want options that are viable. Can't remember last time i built a windmill. There is no decision making, just automatic rules.

I want more interesting terraforming in the x-pac, more like SMAC terraforming. Now THAT game had terraforming options! I think some serious rebalance is needed for the xpack. What do others think?

 

[Mr. Nice]

I wouldn't like to see SMAC style "terraforming". The only terraforming in Civ IV is the chop, and the hammer bonus from this would make it dangerous to include the reverse of planting. Everything else you talk about are tile improvements, which while they may be seen as a proxy for terraforming aren't really the same thing .

I also disagree with your "always". I definitely replace some mines with windmills in the late game, since they produc commerce and food for a minor hit in production. And always farm plains? Since when? If surplus food is available from floodplains and food resources the plains will get cottaged, a reasonable chance of getting a watermill if on a river. In reverse, grasslands may get farms in a production city to enable the working of those mined plain/hills. Finally, the biggest fallacy is "forrest=lumbermill", since far too often the above mentioned only true "terraforming" in civIV gets used, the forrest gets chopped and some other relavent improvment put down.

 

[Chamaedrys]

NEVER use workshops

I must agree. The workshop is complett underpowered, especially in the early stage of the game.

Another thing is: WHY CAN YOU BUILD MINES ON TILES WITHOUT RESOURCES??? What did those mines produce? Sand?

 

[Meffy]

Why not? Yesterday I drove past three real, working sand mines. Goes into concrete.

 

[Chamaedrys]

Why not? Yesterday I drove past three real, working sand mines. Goes into concrete.

OK.
But a workshop should not be less useful as a sand mine.

 

[EscapedGoat]

I wouldn't like to see SMAC style "terraforming".

Well. Would be nice to be able to turn those deserts into something usefull.

Everything else you talk about are tile improvements, which while they may be seen as a proxy for terraforming aren't really the same thing.

Fair point. What I was really asking for is more viable options for tile improvements.

I also disagree with your "always". I definitely replace some mines with windmills in the late game, since they produc commerce and food for a minor hit in production. And always farm plains? Since when? If surplus food is available from floodplains and food resources the plains will get cottaged, a reasonable chance of getting a watermill if on a river. In reverse, grasslands may get farms in a production city to enable the working of those mined plain/hills.

-I don't see how a windmill can be better than a railroaded mine...In fact, it's probably better to just put a cottage there than a windmill...

-It's quite common to farm plains unless you have a huge surpluss of food to not halt growth.

-of course, you need some farms to mine hills. You also need farms in your GPP city, but other than that you don't really want to build them. You want cottages.

My main point is that it's just too obvious what is the 'best' solution in so many cases... i.e pasture on livestock, mine a hill, a few farms/specials then cottage the rest...would be nice if you had to think a little bit about improvements. Maybe I've just played the game too much and figured it out.

Finally, the biggest fallacy is "forrest=lumbermill", since far too often the above mentioned only true "terraforming" in civIV gets used, the forrest gets chopped and some other relavent improvment put down.

Heh, I practically invented the concept of total deforestation, see:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142027&perpage=30&pagenumber=2

post 47...

However, IF a forest survives until the modern age, you definitely do NOT want to chop it down. You want a lumber mill and a railroad on it. Why couldn't we have another improvement, say 'national park'? just an idea. I just think the choices of tile improvements are too obvious.

And what's really annoying is that automated workers build mostly farms. couldn't they at least get a clue and build cottages instead....

 

[Brighteye]

Mines might mine sand (says Meffy), but also clay, stone, tin, slate, maybe lime... I can't think of anything else.
I know that stone is in the game as a resource, but there's a difference between stone that's perfect for building pretty buildings and plain boring stone that you use to pack between the walls of castles etc.

However, it's fair to say that hills are not usually more productive than plains. A workshop should be buildable anywhere, and produce at least as much production as a mine. The same should apply to windmills. However, perhaps windmills could get a bonus on hills, and provide power to a city when you get that far.
You'd build workshops in hills because you'd want your flat land for cottages/farms. If farms produced two food then city growth would be faster but you'd have no production unless you sacrificed some food-producing ability for citizens. Perhaps workshops on plains could create unhealthiness, adding extra reasons to build cities near hills. This may sound arbitrary, but if you imagine that hills tend to have fast flowing water, winds and clear air, even if the water isn't a big enough river to be represented in the game, then you can pretend that workshops in hills are less unhealthy than people living by a sluggish river that's already polluted by animals and people.

The system would be easier to balance if we returned to the CTP way of doing things in multiples of 5. Each single unit now could be represented by 5 units, so that tiles initially produced multiples of 5, but tile improvements would change things by amounts that aren't necessarily in multiples of 5.

 

[ditb]

I build a few windmills last night, just to spice up the landscape.

I am still a novice player, but I would like some additional terraforming options as well. Even if there were some simple graphic changes (i.e. not all farms look alike), I think that would be a decent step forward.

Still, the option to really mold the landscape sounds very appealing.

Dave

 

[Frimlin]

I would love more SMAC-style terraforming options. But I doubt them for Warlords. They'd be more in theme for a futuristic add-on (though yeah certain types of "terraforming" can and have been done without futuristic tech), which considering the success of Civ4 is quite likely at some point. Fingers crossed.

 

[Mahatmajon]

Can't remember last time i built a windmill. There is no decision making, just automatic rules.

Interesting. I usually tear down 25%+ of my mines and make windmills when I get them and another 25% when I get the first tech that gives them +1hpt.

I agree with your post, though, the decision making process becomes which tiles to improve first instead of which improvements and even then it's usually not hard to figure out what's best.

 

[Samson]

The terraforming in CIV is too simple. Let's face it: most of the time, one improvement is correct for one tile. Hills=mine, plains=farm, grassland=cottage, forest=lumber mill. Sometimes you use watermills, and unless you have state property, you NEVER use workshops. Not to speak of the special resources, there one improvement is allways correct. That's boring. I want options that are viable. Can't remember last time i built a windmill. There is no decision making, just automatic rules.

I have to wonder how you play. Do you specalize your cities? If not, you should seriously consider giving it a try. If you do, what do you build on your prodution cities flat land not by rivers when you max out pop? What about your commerce cities hills?

I build loads of workshops. Between guilds and Chemistry/Rep. Parts they are the same "power" [1] as watermills/irrigation/forest and as I tend to beeline for biology I get chemistry long before I get rep parts so they are more powerfully than any other flatland improvement for a good while.

[1] Power = sum of production + food.

 

[Older than Dirt]

I really miss the hours I used to spend removing the mountains and hills to make farms to boost population and get a higher score in Civ2 and chopping and planting trees continuously in Civ 3. Busy workers are happy workers.

 

[majk-iii]

EscapedGoat;
There are a national park happines-bonus.

Even if i can't see a productive lumber-mill in a national-park in real-life.