War Requisitions

[Krill]

OK guys, it looks like we are in for the long haul with Kaz.

And we are looking at building 3 wonders, tying up our best production city.

We might need a settler to replace Angle; if god forbid it's building a worker it is not going to grow in a reasonable time frame.

We only have 4 axes, a spear and an archer and a settler plus 2 workers in the SW, which isn't going to be enough to hold off Kaz if they make a concerted effort to push us away.

I feel that we shouldn't build the GLH, instead building a settler (4 turns) and then growing early, spending only one turn working non collosus powered coasts. The settler would get to the blocker city tile on t103, settle the city t104. It would get to Angle city tile t105 to settle.

This would let us get another spear out of CK, and then finish that worker, or get a chariot...it would give us flexibility.

I know Memphus disagrees with this, but the simple fact is that we are not going to be able to protect Angle if it doesn't grow. It needs to be razed and replaced asap or we risk getting screwed very badly.

 

[Memphus]

OK guys, it looks like we are in for the long haul with Kaz..

Are we? Let's see if they have anymore troops after next turn. Maybe they will talk now?

And we are looking at building 3 wonders, tying up our best production city.

Yeah we are...that is a little .... but alot of our choices in this game have been.

We might need a settler to replace Angle; if god forbid it's building a worker it is not going to grow in a reasonable time frame.

It will grow. Let's give it until T99, if nothing then we can build a settler.

We only have 4 axes, a spear and an archer and a settler plus 2 workers in the SW, which isn't going to be enough to hold off Kaz if they make a concerted effort to push us away.

Soon to be a city with an archer on a Hill (Blocker) Which is safe.
That leaves us 4 axes & a spear to defend Angle.
Kaz has no visble units ATM.

I feel that we shouldn't build the GLH, instead building a settler (4 turns) and then growing early, spending only one turn working non collosus powered coasts. The settler would get to the blocker city tile on t103, settle the city t104. It would get to Angle city tile t105 to settle.

If this is our choice, then I suggest OO go back to the library and this settler can go to the SE if we don't need it at angle. However the GLH has been our justification for so many coastal cities. As such not getting it does hamper our economy.

This would let us get another spear out of CK, and then finish that worker, or get a chariot...it would give us flexibility.

I like the chariot better at this point. It gets there faster and coutners if they send an axe or two at us.
Build to me is: Chariot (2) Worker (1) Re-asse based on new information.

I know Memphus disagrees with this, but the simple fact is that we are not going to be able to protect Angle if it doesn't grow. It needs to be razed and replaced asap or we risk getting screwed very badly.

It will grow. If it grows before T100 can we defend it?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

well, I kind of like how we are going.

We might lose Angle, but I think the wonders are more important than a city. If Kaz does beat us up - well, we forced them down a different road than they wanted to go.

I'd really worry if we thought we might lose the game, but I don't see that happening.

I'm good with continuing as we are and taking a chance.

 

[Krill]

Are we? Let's see if they have anymore troops after next turn. Maybe they will talk now?

This would suggest we send another email to Kaz. We could do this...but we are we really going to resolve this issue in the next 18 hours?

It will grow. Let's give it until T99, if nothing then we can build a settler.

If Kaz slave out 3-4 chariots and already have 1-2 they could just power through Angle without us even having a chance to stop them. The only way we can defend it is by capturing the city before then. Hence the raze/replace approach.

The question is when do we build a settler to replace Angle? I think we need to do it sooner rather than later for the reasons outlined in this post. We have 3 possible cities to get it from. If we get a unit from CK first and then a settler, that gives Angle another 2 turns to grow before we have to dedicate ourselves to building a settler.

The risk of getting a settler from CK after a unit is that Blocker would not be founded until t104, giving Kaz 8 turns to screw with us. the advantage is that we get a unit down in the south 4 turns quicker, and an extra spear would do wonders.

Soon to be a city with an archer on a Hill (Blocker) Which is safe.
That leaves us 4 axes & a spear to defend Angle.
Kaz has no visble units ATM.

Not really. That leaves us 4 axes and aa spear to destroy any units that try to attack Angle. That's a world of difference, because a spear behind 20% culture and 25% fortification will withhold 4 chariots, whereas if we are doing zone defence we have to somehow outflank any Kaz units sent into the area, and we have 0 fastmovers.

If this is our choice, then I suggest OO go back to the library and this settler can go to the SE if we don't need it at angle. However the GLH has been our justification for so many coastal cities. As such not getting it does hamper our economy.

All of our Coastal cities:

IS, capital, great production city,
FC, 2 food res, great production city, ideally suited to through down Collosus,
GM, gives us gold which we need for happiness
SE city from OO, extra LoS into Kaz if they boat us, and defensive terrain

the GLH is just a way to help pay for them, but all of the cities aren't justified by the GLH; the GLH is justified because we need those cities, which allows us to justify the remaining coastal city:

It would be a solid production city, it barb busts the entire peninsula, it has 4 forests to chop into a lighthouse and granary, and we already have the workers there.

I like the chariot better at this point. It gets there faster and coutners if they send an axe or two at us.
Build to me is: Chariot (2) Worker (1) Re-asse based on new information.

We will only ever have a 50/50, at best, on any Kaz chariots sent at us with a chariot. Ideally need at least 2 to be sure.

The spear means that we can do zone defense much more easily against a Kaz chariot stack; admittedly it would not reach Angle until t102, if built this turn. Until then we would have to rely on Charles and the archer (archer can defend in a forest so they don;t have odds to attack, and have to skirt around us).

It will grow. If it grows before T100 can we defend it?

The way I see it is that we cannot replace it until t99. That gives Angle another 4 turns to grow. So long as it has not been building a worker or settler it should grow in that amount of time.

The earliest we can get a spear into the city is t99, so until then we would be relying on zone defense anyway with teh axes to deter Kaz.

If it does grow we can redivert the settler back to the blocker site, upgrade the archer to a longbow and keep it between Angle and Blocker, and keep Charles in Angle for the forseeable future. The archer should be on the blocker tile by t99.

--

The best compromise that I can see is this:

Build a spear in CK, then if Angle has not grown, build a settler. Everything else can just about survive as is. Second spear gets to Blocker nominally t101

Accept that If Angle grows:

1. EOT t95, settle blocker t97, send the spear to Angle via route outlined in the GTD thread.
2. EOT t96, settle blocker t98, spear gets to Angle t100,
3. EOT t97, settle blocker t99, spear gets to Angle t99,
4. EOT t98, settle blocker t101, spear gets to Angle t99,
5. Otherwise Angle gets razed, and Blocker gets founded t104

 

[mostly-harmless]

If Kaz shows up with a reasonable force, we raze Angle and retreat.
If Angle grows before Kaz shows up, we capture it -> Angle back to size 1.
If Kaz shows up after that with a force we cannot counter, we put Angle on no growth and let them have it (auto-razing it about capturing).

Have faith Krill.
mh

 

[Krill]

If Kaz get to control Angle, they will culture bomb it. They are PHI, with a competant ladder player who knows how to handle standoffs. They could be heading for music; in that case we would get bombed in less than 20 turns.

We will get stuck in our peninsula with no land route to our only ally, and with our largest enemy getting Carricks to boat us with.

If we don't control Angle we are going to lose this game. Period.

I am not worried about Kaz hitting us after t105; we will have longbows, spears, and axes behind 20% culture. They will not get odds on us.

I am worried about a lightening raid and them having a settler already in range to replant. We do not have the units to attack them with, so if Angle gets razed we could be looking at worst case scenario immediately.

Razing is therefore not an option unless we can immediately replace.

We can hold Kaz off if we don't play stupidly and dedicate some resources to this defence. Expecting to hold them if they dedicate themselves to the war off with only the handful of units we have is deluded though.

 

[mostly-harmless]

If we don't raze Angle as part of a overall retreat facing superior Kaz troops, Kaz will just wait a few more turns for Angle to get to size 2, without the need to replant. Plus they get the XP, plus they get the loot.

If we raze now and replant ourselves, I don't see how that is better/ quicker than waiting for Angel to grow to size 2?

mh

 

[Krill]

Kaz won't be getting superior troops for a long time. The only just got metal and don't have HBR, just got screwed out of fued and only us and Saturn have MC. The only thing that have a lead on is maths towards catapults.

We can get Fuedalism in 4 turns. We already have an archer heading down there to upgrade. We have ivory, can't see anyone else with it atm, so we are looking good to be the only teams with WE.

Kaz can only really threaten Angle in the short term, in the next 3-4 turns, without us having defenses set up. Thanks to the lay of the land, they can't even threaten Angle without letting us attack them with axes, so long as we set up the positioning correctly. So by t100 we aren't at risk at Angle. Giving us a few more turns just lets us get another 2 longbows in place if we need to.

 

[IamJohn]

I really am with Krill on this one, this city is vital to our long term survival, without it we're screwed, and I just don't think that that is all that kaz has to attack with, and if that's true and they managed to whip more troop and then we'll be in trouble.

 

[Krill]

Looking at the numbers (m-h I would much appreciate it if you checked them over) but the rival average for soldiers increased by 10000, between the end of our t94 and the current position.

The lowest increased by 2000, the highest rival stayed constant (Cav), leaving a possible 8000 unaccounted for, which is 2 chariots (so long as MS did not build anything). However, we killed a chariot, so they would have had to build 3 chariots to cause that score increase.

That means Kaz could be assembling a chariot force to come screw with us.

 

[Dreylin]

I'm torn; much as I agree that this spot is vital, I want the Lighthouse as well ... or perhaps more to the point, I don't want Kaz/Cav to have the GLH. Should we tweak Saturn and see if they would have capability to complete GLH in super-fast time?

 

[Krill]

Saturn are set up for research, not for building; we produce more in CK than they produce in their entire empire. They don;t have a lighthouse either, as they only got sailing 3 or so turns ago.

Arguably that's good for us. We can ask them for a quick lone of gold to upgrade the archer to a longbow if need be (how much does that cost btw?)

 

[mostly-harmless]

Looking at the numbers (m-h I would much appreciate it if you checked them over) but the rival average for soldiers increased by 10000, between the end of our t94 and the current position.

The lowest increased by 2000, the highest rival stayed constant (Cav), leaving a possible 8000 unaccounted for, which is 2 chariots (so long as MS did not build anything). However, we killed a chariot, so they would have had to build 3 chariots to cause that score increase.

That means Kaz could be assembling a chariot force to come screw with us.

Any population increases? New techs for our rivals? City improvements?
3 chariots is unlikely. Surely they cannot build them in a couple of turns?

mh

 

[Krill]

Ultimately, this is the main point:

We need to raze and replace Angle asap. If it grows before our t99 then capturing it is prefered, but if it doesn't then we have to bite the bullet. This is by far the most important issue, and it means we need to figure out where we can get a settler from. If we decide that we can afford to get it out of Ck (and hence have 100 hammers less units to use to defend) then get the settler out of CK and still go for the GLH.

That leaves us with, at absolute best (involving upgrades), 4 axes, 1 spear, 1 longbow. If we get a spear out of CK before a settler (which is a compromise) then we have 3 units that have great odds on defence against chariots, especially after the borders pop.

Is that enough to deal with Kaz, if we have both Angle and Blocker? If not, then we need to get more units out of Ck and a settler out of IS.

 

[Krill]

Any population increases? New techs for our rivals? City improvements?
3 chariots is unlikely. Surely they cannot build them in a couple of turns?

mh

We have LoS into 3 others teams cities. One is size 1 and a few turns old, the other is Saturn capital (should be checked) and the third is Cavs so no improvements. (Rival best = Cav, had no increase)

Pop growth: 1 score increase, which was for Kaz, after a 1 pop slave. The rival average for popuolation changed, so that suggests 1 city was slaved and a different city grow. MS had a score increase of 6 as well, 1 pop point. That would be a 50/50 chance of 1k soldiers increase.

Techs, need to login and check it, Memphus isn't around atm. There are no anc era techs left to be research by anyone apart from us of Saturn though.

 

[Krill]

So long as we don't mind forcing CK or FC to build an archer later, we can we move the warrior in FC to CK, and move the chariot down to the south, it would arrive at the tile north of the blocker site by t98 at the latest

I'm not sure if we can do it this turn, but we should be able to do it next turn at the latest when the gold is connected. I don;t know if a size 7 city with a happy cap of 9 needs a defender. Next turn the happy cap will be 11 so it should be fine.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Having a huge stack of defenders in that city won't help us - All Kaz has to do is drop a city nearby and use a culture bomb on it and it'll get overwhelmed. We can't stop Kaz from bombing a city there if they want (assuming they are going to music first)


We have a settler on the way to Angle right now - it's under the spear (Charles), about 3 tiles from Angle.

 

[Krill]

Kaz can culture bomb us, but if we have Angle they can't plant and bomb in such a way to really hurt us. We will be switching to caste shortly, and Angle is a perfect spot to grow to size 6+ and just work food res and work artists then counter bomb with the GA. The artists alone will keep the food res west and east of Angle, the only tiles that would be lost are the cows and copper, then when we counter bomb we'd get them back, unless kaz planted really close.

And if they plant that close they are going to have difficulty holding the city against a team with WE.

The rest of what you wrote I just don't understand.

 

[Krill]

From the GTD thread:

Well I would make sure I did not STOP producing units while at war, for any reason. We can not afford to let our power graphs drop. We need to give Kaz every reason to end this war ASAP, a long protracted fight is NOT what we are looking for right now.

Doubt Kaz will back off now tbh. Unless we plan to push into their land (which I don't think is wise, given the units we have), we only need enough to defend ourselves, and for a sentry net.

We could build chariots in Fog and Cloud and build GLH in the cap, then build Collosus once GLH is built. That would continue to move our power graph up.

Already spent 1 turn building the Collosus in FC, and after that it needs a lighthouse. It needs to grow pretty damned large, pretty damned fast.

Also, Chariots are not good units anymore. Kaz don't exactly have axes in abundance, so the most we can hope for is 50/50 odds. Spears are the order of the day if we want units, then longbows and HA when we get the required tech. Units from FC take an additional 3 turns to reach the front compared to CK (identical to CK).

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I was responding to a concern about finding a settler for that spot - did I misread an earlier post?

Isn't that what you were worrying about when you wrote:

We need to raze and replace Angle asap. If it grows before our t99 then capturing it is prefered, but if it doesn't then we have to bite the bullet. This is by far the most important issue, and it means we need to figure out where we can get a settler from.

We have one right there.