War wariness gone mad

[ABigCivFan]

In my current game (Warlord2.08/Immortal/Standard/Pangea/Normal/Persia), something strange happened during a intricate series of diplo actions.

1. I bribed Caesar with Education to fight Ragner (the 2 score leaders) They are located to my east and northeast respectively.

2. After their war ended, I declaired on Caesar and took 3 of his cities. I Suffered serious war after 5 turns even when I had Police state.

3. Roosevelt was to my west, he was annoyed and i could not fight a 2 front war so I bribed Toku(to my southWest) and Ragner with Astronomy to fight Roosevelt. 1 turn later, Roosevelt declaired on me as well (what was he thinking?)

4. I ended war with Caesar, swing my calvary forces from the eastern front to the west to fight Roosevelt. Toku already took 2 of the American cities, so I did not meet much resistance, taking 3 juicy American cities with 1 Mil Academy and Versille intact.

5. several turns later, Roosevelt made peace with Japan and Vikings but vassled himself to Caesar and Caesar declaired on me.

6. I immeditely bribed Japan(with Military Tradition) to declair on Caesar, and Ragner was pleased with me with all my one-sided trades with him, he was willing to fight caesar for free when i asked him to spare help! (although I had brought him a war 15 turns earlier ) apparently he hates Caesar.

5. This is when it hit me. with in 2 turns, my capital went from 3 war to 25 war and a total of 48 ! It only had a population of 20 at the time. How is that possible???
What is the maximum number of can a war cause does anyone know?

I had to switch back to Police state, up my culture rate to 60%(+15 in my capital) to remedy that. Still, my capital had a total of 48 and only 40. I only declaired war once in this whole series of events.

Could someone enlighten me about how the war work in this game, and whether my situiation is normal and expected? Thanks.

 

[cabert]

their is an article by krikkitone about WW in the war academy.
It's pre-patch though.

Did you fight so many combats in those few turns?
It seems wrong altogether. 48 angries is hard to fight, but maybe a jail could help, if it's only this one city having a problem...
Mount rushmore could prove useful if you have many such cities, but all in all growing from 3 to 25 in 2 turns would require a huge amount of fighting (and loads of losses too)

 

[ABigCivFan]

I fight with concentrated, mixed elite troops (i.e. mixed pinch, formation calvaries+pince rifles/grenadiers+catapults/trebs) my kill/loss ratio is about 3-1. did not loss too many battles during those few turns.

my Capital and my HE/West point city suffered the most, the HE city had 19 pop, and about 45 . Did not have the tech for Jail and Mt Rushmore. Did have captured Pyramid though.

I dont know how anyone can explain a drop from 3 war to 25 war in 1 turn, it should be more gradual. It is most probably a bug in the logic when the war diplomatic events get too complicated. Wish I could post the screen shots b4 and after. but am @ work now.

 

[UncleJJ]

Post the savegame of the position so we can look at it in detail and maybe solve the problem for you

WW is explained in this thread, although it is for vanilla and not Warlords I guess much of it is the same. There you can see that WW is accumulated against each other civ team. I'm not sure but I guess a master and his vassal count as a team. Did several old enemies declare war on you in a short time? Also did your cities get bigger, as WW is strongly associated with the size of your cities?

Note also that each attack against you increases WW as well as your attacks against them so the AI sacrificing itself on your stacks increases your WW.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I have also noticed increased WW since the last patch, and always thought it was changed for balance reasons (making police state more important).
But 48 in a 20 pop city must be a bug.

 

[ABigCivFan]

I forgot to mention another complication:

I captured this American city just before the war problem which was

1. Originally an Indian city
2. Captured by Vikings from the Indians
3. Captured by Americans from the Vikings
4. Captured by me from the Americans.

Maybe this has something to do with it...

 

[johnny_rico]

I forgot to mention another complication:

I captured this American city just before the war problem which was

1. Originally an Indian city
2. Captured by Vikings from the Indians
3. Captured by Americans from the Vikings
4. Captured by me from the Americans.

Maybe this has something to do with it...

Whoa! That city is damaged goods. I'm not sure how that works. If you take if from the Vikings and don't give it back to India, I think you'd generate and unhappy penalty from India, not WW.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Just posted 2 save files: 1 from yr 1680 the other from yr 1695

in 1680 i had 2 war in my capital
in 1695 I had 25 war in my capital

 

[Chieftess]

Just posted 2 save files: 1 from yr 1680 the other from yr 1695

in 1680 i had 2 war in my capital
in 1695 I had 25 war in my capital

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=193054

Moderator Action: Use this thread. I've closed your duplicate thread - no need to have more than 1.

 

[ABigCivFan]

here are the files.

 

[Drake007]

you said you suffered heavy war weariness after only 5 turns fighting caesar, how big was it? i know that when you make peace, then redeclare shortly after the same exact war weariness comes back...

surely the fact he's your buddhist brother has something to do with it, and maybe the fact he has the shrine makes it worse.

still, i'm surprised its that high... what the hell

in a recent game, after space race, i "nuked the planet" just to test it out, and i had something like 50 in all my cities in the same turn. we didnt share religion or anything, and that happened before the AI got a chance to fight back, so logically my citizens had nothing to cry about (cept maybe having an insane leader ).

conclusion: firaxis needs to tone it down or at least make it a bit more logical

 

[cabert]

if you read through krikkitone's article, you'll see you face WW even when you win the fights.
You only escape this when you fight on your own ground (it's about cultural dominance).

edit : deleted wrong assesment

 

[Charles 22]

This is fairly funny to me, because I have cited the precise opposite problem with 2.08. I turtle up in my wars generally until the WWII era, so I can tell you something very different is going on. For a rough guess, I would say I have been at war with the Ottomans for perhaps 700 turns. He has lost at least 200 units, probably closer to 300 in my territory, and has not once offered for peace despite something like a 3-to-1 loss ratio in my favor and I have not lost cities (he has had one of his destroyed due to cultural takeover from my culture).

Not only that, but when experimenting I went to see if he would even bother with accepting peace, and he would only accept it on even terms. I look at his civ with the builder, and as you would expect with these conditions, had so little weariness that you couldn't tell it in any of his cities; unlike how the game was before.

 

[cabert]

700 turns isn't really right
Maybe you meant 70?

Anyway, there is a a few % of ww going away each turn, so you get much higher WW if you go into heavy fighting for a short duration.
It's also higher on higher levels (duh!).
There is also a kind of modernity effect.

Read though krikkitone's article, you'll see it all by yourself (is it different now? I saw no notice of change, so I assumed it's the same for vanilla, warlords, patched warlords).

some notions :
Your unit attacks their unit=+3 if you lose, +1 if you win
Their unit attacks your unit =+2 (win or lose)
You capture a unit=+1
Your unit is captured=+2
You capture a city=+6
You launch a nuke=+12 (WW regardless of culture)
You are hit with a Nuke=+3 (WW regardless of culture... this is for All players hit by the nuke).

Those numbers are not direct unhappiness points. There are a lot of modifiers (city size being the most important one).

So let's say you had 3 ww to start with.
meaning total ww*20 (city size)/200 = 3. so total ww to start with was 30.
After 1 turn, ww*20/200 = 25, means total ww was 250.
since between turns, there is 1 less ww , it means you had 221 ww points .
That could very well be done if you were attacked by 110 units :crazyeyes:.
The city being a recent aquisition, you are not spared the active ww.
+ the era modifier applies and I figured it's quite important. So it's very well possible that only a few (say 20) units are enough to skyrocket the number, given the level you play.


What you need to also know is it's team based, not civ based. Do you have a vassal involved in the fight?

 

[ABigCivFan]

Thanks guys for taking the time to evaluate my situiation. Your analysis are very helpful. I think I made the mistake by switching from Police State to Representation after my war with Caesar when I was still in war with Roosevelt. I thought that since Rooselelt declaired on me so i should not suffer any ww. But that changed when I start to taking his juciy cities and fighting largely in his territory. Caesar vassalized Roosevelt and resumed war with me also added to the WW since I have remained in war for many turns and more. So I suffered the "worst case scenario" of the WW due to the circumstances.

Now I ve played 3 more turns, switched back to Police state got war down to 14 in my capital, and was able to produce units again . Despite Caesar is facing 3 strong enemies, he is very persistant on capturing back his cities from me. He sent large forces of Calv+Grenadiers+Rifes+canons to invade, i scrambled anything I could get to fight back, but had to retreat from those 2 cities I took from his cause i need to preserve my smaller forces in the eastern front. My 3 productive cities are located in the east so i could quickly mass a defensive force, and expect to attack Caesar again when i swing my cav forces back from the western front.

This has been a very fun map to play where i was sandwitched between several strong enemies. I had to play diplo maverick to stay in the game and had lots of fun.

If anyone interested, i could try to post the 4000BC save of this game.

 

[Charles 22]

700 turns isn't really right
Maybe you meant 70?

Anyway, there is a a few % of ww going away each turn, so you get much higher WW if you go into heavy fighting for a short duration.
It's also higher on higher levels (duh!).
There is also a kind of modernity effect.

Read though krikkitone's article, you'll see it all by yourself (is it different now? I saw no notice of change, so I assumed it's the same for vanilla, warlords, patched warlords).

some notions :
Your unit attacks their unit=+3 if you lose, +1 if you win
Their unit attacks your unit =+2 (win or lose)
You capture a unit=+1
Your unit is captured=+2
You capture a city=+6
You launch a nuke=+12 (WW regardless of culture)
You are hit with a Nuke=+3 (WW regardless of culture... this is for All players hit by the nuke).

Those numbers are not direct unhappiness points. There are a lot of modifiers (city size being the most important one).

So let's say you had 3 ww to start with.
meaning total ww*20 (city size)/200 = 3. so total ww to start with was 30.
After 1 turn, ww*20/200 = 25, means total ww was 250.
since between turns, there is 1 less ww , it means you had 221 ww points .
That could very well be done if you were attacked by 110 units :crazyeyes:.
The city being a recent aquisition, you are not spared the active ww.
+ the era modifier applies and I figured it's quite important. So it's very well possible that only a few (say 20) units are enough to skyrocket the number, given the level you play.


What you need to also know is it's team based, not civ based. Do you have a vassal involved in the fight?

I spoke of a long war. I have seen plenty of 70+ wars, but the one I spoke about was 'not' an exaggeration or a mis-type and I meant 700 turns. I have long since went past the point where that civ should have begged and screamed several times over for peace, and then to find him just lollygagging around like nothing is happening, with no WW to apparently worry about, just isn't right.

Unfortunately I can only operate from memory at this point, as I abandoned that pointless tech-trading-allowed game and am now experimenting with going for the no tech trading option and see if things improve and give me a chance again. At least one thing is very pleasant about a game like that. They don't come knocking on your door trying to scrounge every little tech away from you and makes for a lot more quality play and a lot less interruptions..

 

[cabert]

OK charles.
700 turns is more than a game's worth of turns for me, but I play normal speed only.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

When I take on a reasonably large AI [Warlords, Monarch, Standard] I usually find I can't defeat him in one war. So after taking half of his territory or so and with WW driving many of my cities into unhappiness, I agree to a 10 turn peace treaty to regroup. What I have found of late is that if I resume the war on turn 11 I immediately suffer extreme WW. If I wait until say turn 20 the WW seems to start at zero climb much more slowly.

How many turns does it take to eliminate all WW? Is there an optimum number of waiting turns before attacking again?

 

[UncleJJ]

In krikkitone's article WW declines by 1 (absolute value 1 not 1%) each turn regardless of peace or war. It also declines by a further 1% for each turn of peace.

If for instance you have a city size 10 with say 4 WW faces then you will have about 80 WW points against that civ. So if you make peace for 20 turns then I would expect the amount of WW to drop by 20 for the normal per turn drop and by a further 20 for the 1% (rounded down = -1 / turn as well).

When you go to war with that civ again after the 20 turns of peace you will have still have 40 WW left and that will give you 2

 

[cabert]

I tried an emperor late game war (EMC 3, to be true), and found the modern era WW to be really bad.
I still finished off (capitulation is great !) my enemy, but lost pop every turn due to starvation from WW unhappiness .
Instead of troops, I mostly built happiness buildings