Warhammer Fantasy Battles Mod Brainstorm Thread
- Thread starter Psychic_Llamas
- Start date
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Erm, you do realize that were not breaching anything as were not selling this. its a hobby of mine, and im guessing its a hobby of the rest of the WH team, of most other people modding these days in fact. i dont see anyone getting money for thier mods, unless youre not telling me something. so why would it be a problem if we want to adapt a tabletop board game to Civ??? i dont see Tolkien's family busting down doors and demands the Lord of the rings mods be taken off-line. and i dont see any of the Star wars producers busting down doors and demands the Star Wars mods be taken off-line.
And for your information, our work will not be wasted, as i can assure you that i will continue modding this on my own if i must, but i have a feeling that ploe will hold the team together even if we were forced to go off line. it would only be your loss, not having access to it.
PS: did you even look at the Legal Disclaimer?
PPS, was there any point to that post other than to hear me rant again?
PPPS sorry, i had to say that
And for your information, our work will not be wasted, as i can assure you that i will continue modding this on my own if i must, but i have a feeling that ploe will hold the team together even if we were forced to go off line. it would only be your loss, not having access to it.
PS: did you even look at the Legal Disclaimer?
Spoiler :
PPS, was there any point to that post other than to hear me rant again?
PPPS sorry, i had to say that
Sorry about my absence
(Finally figured out to use word to type these messages 
) was unable to log on due to technical issues.
@ Psychic Llamas my apologies I thought you were discussing the Old Faith as in the Old Faith that the truthsayers from Albion worship but that is dead amongst all the rest of humanity.
@ Psychic Llamas to my knowledge humans do not worship elven gods that is some of the silliness they introduced in WFRP it was never canon. Khaine is an elven god only in WFRP was he ever considered to be otherwise, that has been retracted with Khaine being listed as an elven god.
Fundamentally I agree it should be possible to have 2 dark elven civilizations. Now in scenario terms would there ever have been dark elves if they hadnt lost? I agree that certain groupings of civilizations should have access to religions.
Also the timeline of warhammer fantasy would need a staggered timeline of civilization starts. High elves, Lizardmen etc first then other nation following a time line as they spawn . (think Rhyes of Civilization )
@ Psychic Llamas house spirits mean exactly that, they are minor gods of the hearth, house, wine and ancestor spirits would also be a fair assumption to say that they east of the empire at least held similar beliefs pre old human gods
This all goes to my next idea would it possible to make 2 old religions? Just to make it not one huge block of old world religious love... east vs west just run House Spirits and Nature gods? (whatever they you want to call them)
@ Psychic Llamas well does it matter about Ind worshipping for a bit Chaos? Never been a mention of Chaos gods in Ind at least in the recent literature. In reality does normal Civilization show what a split in a faith does? Just ignore that hiccup, and the many other religious hiccups of Warhammer.
@ Arathlan the spread of religions isnt right some spread fast others havent Ursun the bear god of Kislev re spread his faith amongst Kislev in a couple of years.
Sigmar took only a 100 years after his death to be worshipped in half the Empire and semi worshipped in the other half. 100 years might seem a long time but the cult of Sigmar really sprang into action with the 1st Theogonist. It changed from hero worship to god worship in only a couple of years.
The Lady of Brettionia spread in a couple of years of Guiles Le Breton taking power.
It does spread fast, but a lot of faiths spread slowly as well and to an Elf or a Dwarf a short time is a long time (different concept of time )
@ Arathlan saying they dont share isnt quite right, all the old gods cults tend to get along without to much blood. Better than the real world in that respect religious violence is quite low, excepting chaos but they are evil it dont think that is quite right but then again it is in part . Complex
@ kazapp there is so much unofficial stuff for Games workshop projects it would make your head spin. Have a quick look around, a lot of sites on the net copy directly from GW magazines and dont even acknowledge their source and I dont see GW breaking down there doors. This project is using original content derived from a 3rd party program that is non profit.
And the disclaimer its quite well written
) was unable to log on due to technical issues.@ Psychic Llamas my apologies I thought you were discussing the Old Faith as in the Old Faith that the truthsayers from Albion worship but that is dead amongst all the rest of humanity.
@ Psychic Llamas to my knowledge humans do not worship elven gods that is some of the silliness they introduced in WFRP it was never canon. Khaine is an elven god only in WFRP was he ever considered to be otherwise, that has been retracted with Khaine being listed as an elven god.
Fundamentally I agree it should be possible to have 2 dark elven civilizations. Now in scenario terms would there ever have been dark elves if they hadnt lost? I agree that certain groupings of civilizations should have access to religions.
Also the timeline of warhammer fantasy would need a staggered timeline of civilization starts. High elves, Lizardmen etc first then other nation following a time line as they spawn . (think Rhyes of Civilization )
@ Psychic Llamas house spirits mean exactly that, they are minor gods of the hearth, house, wine and ancestor spirits would also be a fair assumption to say that they east of the empire at least held similar beliefs pre old human gods
This all goes to my next idea would it possible to make 2 old religions? Just to make it not one huge block of old world religious love... east vs west
just run House Spirits and Nature gods? (whatever they you want to call them)@ Psychic Llamas well does it matter about Ind worshipping for a bit Chaos? Never been a mention of Chaos gods in Ind at least in the recent literature. In reality does normal Civilization show what a split in a faith does? Just ignore that hiccup, and the many other religious hiccups of Warhammer.
@ Arathlan the spread of religions isnt right some spread fast others havent Ursun the bear god of Kislev re spread his faith amongst Kislev in a couple of years.
Sigmar took only a 100 years after his death to be worshipped in half the Empire and semi worshipped in the other half. 100 years might seem a long time but the cult of Sigmar really sprang into action with the 1st Theogonist. It changed from hero worship to god worship in only a couple of years.
The Lady of Brettionia spread in a couple of years of Guiles Le Breton taking power.
It does spread fast, but a lot of faiths spread slowly as well and to an Elf or a Dwarf a short time is a long time (different concept of time )
@ Arathlan saying they dont share isnt quite right, all the old gods cults tend to get along without to much blood. Better than the real world in that respect religious violence is quite low, excepting chaos but they are evil it dont think that is quite right but then again it is in part . Complex
@ kazapp there is so much unofficial stuff for Games workshop projects it would make your head spin. Have a quick look around, a lot of sites on the net copy directly from GW magazines and dont even acknowledge their source and I dont see GW breaking down there doors. This project is using original content derived from a 3rd party program that is non profit.
And the disclaimer
its quite well written
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Welcome back Masada 
The Old faith (as in the Albion religion) is a confusing topic. i agree with you that it is now 'dead' throuout most of the Old World, and that it is only truly 'alive' in Albion and remote covens in the empire. however, before Sigmar, or Ursun, or the Lady, or any of the other 'younger' human gods, the Old faith was THE faith in the Old World. so if we look at WH history from a different perspective, if The Old Faith happend to prosper, and the people of the empire saw Sigmar as a fraud and didnt worship him, would the Old Faith still be 'alive' in the Old World? i think any religon, whether dead or alive now, as long as it once existed, is good to put in game as long as it serves a purpose. But i do see what you were saying
WFRP has confused me
i dont know what to believe any more. i mean, i see what you mean by minor details like Ind worshipping Chaos being a silly excuse for fluff, but i didnt know what else to believe. however, that said, there is a lot that WFRP has to offer. think of all those races that have only 1 page of legitimate fluff from GW, Amazonians, Hobgobla-khan, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, Araby, Albion. there realy is alot of stuff we need to improvise on, so i think we could still use WFRP as a last resort if needs be.
I honestly have never even heard of these hous spirits. could you provide a link, or some more fluff on them?
Ill change the Minor Chaos Gods sub religion to be able to be worshipped by all races. Chaos seems like a VERY versatile force, getting into every nook and cranny. imagine High Elves following Khorne, or Araby following Nurgle, or the Empire following Tzeenthch. they are all possible.
I agree with you for the Religion Spread.
Thanks for the feedback again
The Old faith (as in the Albion religion) is a confusing topic. i agree with you that it is now 'dead' throuout most of the Old World, and that it is only truly 'alive' in Albion and remote covens in the empire. however, before Sigmar, or Ursun, or the Lady, or any of the other 'younger' human gods, the Old faith was THE faith in the Old World. so if we look at WH history from a different perspective, if The Old Faith happend to prosper, and the people of the empire saw Sigmar as a fraud and didnt worship him, would the Old Faith still be 'alive' in the Old World? i think any religon, whether dead or alive now, as long as it once existed, is good to put in game as long as it serves a purpose. But i do see what you were saying
WFRP has confused me
i dont know what to believe any more. i mean, i see what you mean by minor details like Ind worshipping Chaos being a silly excuse for fluff, but i didnt know what else to believe. however, that said, there is a lot that WFRP has to offer. think of all those races that have only 1 page of legitimate fluff from GW, Amazonians, Hobgobla-khan, Cathay, Nippon, Ind, Araby, Albion. there realy is alot of stuff we need to improvise on, so i think we could still use WFRP as a last resort if needs be. I honestly have never even heard of these hous spirits. could you provide a link, or some more fluff on them?
Ill change the Minor Chaos Gods sub religion to be able to be worshipped by all races. Chaos seems like a VERY versatile force, getting into every nook and cranny. imagine High Elves following Khorne, or Araby following Nurgle, or the Empire following Tzeenthch. they are all possible.
I agree with you for the Religion Spread.
Thanks for the feedback again
Gods of Kislev from WD286 (it wasnt easy to find believe me...)
Ursun:
Description: Is the father of bears, can appear in the shape of a Bear or a bearded man
Symbol: Bear paw, worshippers often have one made of gold on there necks, bearskin cloaks, bear skull over there helmet in the north of Kislev or over there shields
Temples: Ursun has no temples, carins and standing stones, a cave of a great bear, offerings of fish and berries, in cities areas are allowed to grow wild for temples
Friends and Enemies: Friction between Ulric and Ursun pride issues pretty much the same, Taal because i quote "they share a common border at Tabecland" (LOL) they consider Taal worshippers a bit daft for worshipping all animals equally since bears are better... (LOL), they see the southern gods as a bit soft and unworthy...
Holy Days: Only 2 real holy days, the spring equinox where they rouse Ursun and the Autumn equinox where they offer food from the first havest to Ursun
Strictures: Never kill a bear in his sleep, Bears must be killed by hand or arrow no dogs or traps, only wear the skin, claw, skull of a bear you kill yourself, eat fish once per week, and never eat meat and fish on the same day, never pray indoors...
Dazn
Description: God of fire and the sun, handsome youth with long hair and wreathed in fire, he is accompanied by warrior consorts called Avari
Symbol: The sun or the flame made of gold which is the cults sacred metal
Temples: Large open arenas with lots of fire and an image of there god in gold
Freidns and enemies: they get along with everyone sometimes a bit peeved at Ulric (god of winter... and all)
Holy Days: every day is holy, Summer solstice when the god walks amongst his worshippers the most, in the north they burn people for him and in the south horses and oxen
Strictures: Must offer hospitality, never let a fire go out during the night, never set a fire on a dirty hearth, offer prayers to Dazn on the first morning of snows (most of the time it snows in Kislev 9 months
)
Tor: God of thunder and lighting, comes as a warrior god, most active of Kislevite gods
Symbol: Thunderbolt, axe, silver
Temples: atop hills, worlds edge mountains near peak pass and high pass, large stone blocks with heavy roofs of wooden logs for temples
Freinds and Enemies: indifferent to other gods, get along with Ulric
Holy Days: No formal days, during a good storm they go and gather and pray together, warriors pray to Tor before and after battle
Stricures: never stand under a tree in a thunderstorm
Other gods...
Taal (talabec is his sacred rive and Kislev borders it), Ulric, even more than any other old worlders the Kislevites pay tribute to all manner of nature and household spirits who help them in their daily lives, or set them tests to prove themselves. Little offering and rituals are followed in a near unthinking fasion to appease the various needs of these sometimes mischievous but usually benevolent creatures. (as i said earlier split the Old gods into 2 parts North and South say?)
History of Kislev
Years (Gospodarin Calendar)
c-1600: Lands north of the Urskoy are peopled by Posmenn and Ungols. Peace exists between Teutogens who border territory except for borders raids and what nots..
-1524: Empire is founded by Sigmar. He scatters the Norsii people from sea of claws and they northwards. The Ungols drive them further north in what is now Norsca. Sigmar helps Ungols fighting Orcs in Worlds Edge Mountians. Peace exsists together after they both fight at the Battle of Blackfire pass.
-45:Over several years the tribes of the chaos wastes drive Gospodar tribes to move west
-30: Khan Queen Miska leads the Gospodar leads them over High pass and drives the Ungols back
-27 Praag is overun by Gospodar and Ungols are forced south
-25 Amry of Ungol Warlord Hethis Chaq defeats a Ropsmenn host led by King Weiran on the cliffs overlooking the sea of claws. The Ropsmenn are scattered and the Ungols take their lands
1: Under the rule of Khan-queen Shoika, work begins on the building of the capital Kislev. Takes the title Tzarina to show she rules north of Urskoy
3: Norvard last great Ungol stronghold is taken by Gospodars and renamed Erengrad. Completes the conquest of Urskoy (note: Ungols continue to exist as a seperate people, subserviant is not the right word...)
788: Great war against Chaos. Praag is besieged and destroyed and destroyed again after Kislev retakes and burns it to the ground to destroy taint of Chaos (the last sentance is an addition, info from another WD) Kislev besieged and saved by, Dwarfs (who help defend the city and make the breakout), Men (the empire led by Magnus the Pious soon to be the 1st real Emperor for a thousand years), Elves (3... Techlis and 2 others teach men to work magic and found schools in Altdorf)
968: Tzar Vladamire Bokha dies fighting goblins east of Kislev (city?) (Wolf rider goblins to if i remeber...?) Boris his son inherits a ruin of a nation that hasnt recovered from the Great War against Chaos
969: Tzar Boris Bokha defeats Beastmen army outside Praag, earning the name Radii Bokha (Bokha the Red), he spends the treasury (pisses of old guard Boyars) and rebuilds the country
973: radii Bokha returns from wild with the war bear Urskin, and becomes the first High Priest of Ursun in 400 years (no idea why?...) taking the title Boris Ursus
993: Tzar Boris dies in Troll Country (evil nasty place...) Tzarina Katarin is crowned
997:Time known as "spring driving" (nice name). Hordes of Archaon rampage south crossing the Lynsk. Armies of the Tzarina and the Empire are defeated....
Cities:Only 3 in Kislev...
Kislev: Been sieged many times but never defeated or captured. High seat of the Tzarina, Tzar contains the Bokha palace the original was wrecked in the Great war against Chaos in 778 (IC2302 normal warhammer calendar)
Erengrad: Main port and trading city, everyone trades here even Norsca (errant brothers or so the Kislevites think of them...)
Praag: "The cursed city" been overun a couple of times. During the great war against chaos the walls and building became infused with chaos and sprouted tentacles and eyes etc... Horse tribes come to rally here during the times and war and boasts the a large Ungol population. Three times it has attempted to cede from the Tzars power... twice it was starved in submission, the third time it was taken by force ruled by a Gospodar governor who answers only to the Tzarina.
Kislev has 2 major populations Gospodars (in the south) winged lancers and Griffon legion, Kossars are a mix of Ungors and Gospodars and all the Horse archers are Ungors... Ungors are from the north and are primarily nomadic
Thank you WD for my RI... but oh well.... that was way longer than I wanted it to be
Ursun:
Description: Is the father of bears, can appear in the shape of a Bear or a bearded man
Symbol: Bear paw, worshippers often have one made of gold on there necks, bearskin cloaks, bear skull over there helmet in the north of Kislev or over there shields
Temples: Ursun has no temples, carins and standing stones, a cave of a great bear, offerings of fish and berries, in cities areas are allowed to grow wild for temples
Friends and Enemies: Friction between Ulric and Ursun pride issues pretty much the same, Taal because i quote "they share a common border at Tabecland" (LOL) they consider Taal worshippers a bit daft for worshipping all animals equally since bears are better... (LOL), they see the southern gods as a bit soft and unworthy...
Holy Days: Only 2 real holy days, the spring equinox where they rouse Ursun and the Autumn equinox where they offer food from the first havest to Ursun
Strictures: Never kill a bear in his sleep, Bears must be killed by hand or arrow no dogs or traps, only wear the skin, claw, skull of a bear you kill yourself, eat fish once per week, and never eat meat and fish on the same day, never pray indoors...
Dazn
Description: God of fire and the sun, handsome youth with long hair and wreathed in fire, he is accompanied by warrior consorts called Avari
Symbol: The sun or the flame made of gold which is the cults sacred metal
Temples: Large open arenas with lots of fire and an image of there god in gold
Freidns and enemies: they get along with everyone sometimes a bit peeved at Ulric (god of winter... and all)
Holy Days: every day is holy, Summer solstice when the god walks amongst his worshippers the most, in the north they burn people for him and in the south horses and oxen
Strictures: Must offer hospitality, never let a fire go out during the night, never set a fire on a dirty hearth, offer prayers to Dazn on the first morning of snows (most of the time it snows in Kislev 9 months
)Tor: God of thunder and lighting, comes as a warrior god, most active of Kislevite gods
Symbol: Thunderbolt, axe, silver
Temples: atop hills, worlds edge mountains near peak pass and high pass, large stone blocks with heavy roofs of wooden logs for temples
Freinds and Enemies: indifferent to other gods, get along with Ulric
Holy Days: No formal days, during a good storm they go and gather and pray together, warriors pray to Tor before and after battle
Stricures: never stand under a tree in a thunderstorm
Other gods...
Taal (talabec is his sacred rive and Kislev borders it), Ulric, even more than any other old worlders the Kislevites pay tribute to all manner of nature and household spirits who help them in their daily lives, or set them tests to prove themselves. Little offering and rituals are followed in a near unthinking fasion to appease the various needs of these sometimes mischievous but usually benevolent creatures. (as i said earlier split the Old gods into 2 parts North and South say?)
History of Kislev
Years (Gospodarin Calendar)
c-1600: Lands north of the Urskoy are peopled by Posmenn and Ungols. Peace exists between Teutogens who border territory except for borders raids and what nots..
-1524: Empire is founded by Sigmar. He scatters the Norsii people from sea of claws and they northwards. The Ungols drive them further north in what is now Norsca. Sigmar helps Ungols fighting Orcs in Worlds Edge Mountians. Peace exsists together after they both fight at the Battle of Blackfire pass.
-45:Over several years the tribes of the chaos wastes drive Gospodar tribes to move west
-30: Khan Queen Miska leads the Gospodar leads them over High pass and drives the Ungols back
-27 Praag is overun by Gospodar and Ungols are forced south
-25 Amry of Ungol Warlord Hethis Chaq defeats a Ropsmenn host led by King Weiran on the cliffs overlooking the sea of claws. The Ropsmenn are scattered and the Ungols take their lands
1: Under the rule of Khan-queen Shoika, work begins on the building of the capital Kislev. Takes the title Tzarina to show she rules north of Urskoy
3: Norvard last great Ungol stronghold is taken by Gospodars and renamed Erengrad. Completes the conquest of Urskoy (note: Ungols continue to exist as a seperate people, subserviant is not the right word...)
788: Great war against Chaos. Praag is besieged and destroyed and destroyed again after Kislev retakes and burns it to the ground to destroy taint of Chaos (the last sentance is an addition, info from another WD) Kislev besieged and saved by, Dwarfs (who help defend the city and make the breakout), Men (the empire led by Magnus the Pious soon to be the 1st real Emperor for a thousand years), Elves (3... Techlis and 2 others teach men to work magic and found schools in Altdorf)
968: Tzar Vladamire Bokha dies fighting goblins east of Kislev (city?) (Wolf rider goblins to if i remeber...?) Boris his son inherits a ruin of a nation that hasnt recovered from the Great War against Chaos
969: Tzar Boris Bokha defeats Beastmen army outside Praag, earning the name Radii Bokha (Bokha the Red), he spends the treasury (pisses of old guard Boyars) and rebuilds the country
973: radii Bokha returns from wild with the war bear Urskin, and becomes the first High Priest of Ursun in 400 years (no idea why?...) taking the title Boris Ursus
993: Tzar Boris dies in Troll Country (evil nasty place...) Tzarina Katarin is crowned
997:Time known as "spring driving" (nice name). Hordes of Archaon rampage south crossing the Lynsk. Armies of the Tzarina and the Empire are defeated....
Cities:Only 3 in Kislev...
Kislev: Been sieged many times but never defeated or captured
. High seat of the Tzarina, Tzar contains the Bokha palace the original was wrecked in the Great war against Chaos in 778 (IC2302 normal warhammer calendar)Erengrad: Main port and trading city, everyone trades here even Norsca (errant brothers or so the Kislevites think of them...)
Praag: "The cursed city" been overun a couple of times. During the great war against chaos the walls and building became infused with chaos and sprouted tentacles and eyes etc... Horse tribes come to rally here during the times and war and boasts the a large Ungol population. Three times it has attempted to cede from the Tzars power... twice it was starved in submission, the third time it was taken by force ruled by a Gospodar governor who answers only to the Tzarina.
Kislev has 2 major populations Gospodars (in the south) winged lancers and Griffon legion, Kossars are a mix of Ungors and Gospodars and all the Horse archers are Ungors... Ungors are from the north and are primarily nomadic
Thank you WD for my RI... but oh well.... that was way longer than I wanted it to be
@ Psychic_Llamas
The Old Faith: you are making an assumption that all the old gods were the same... i believe that it is not likely that they were so i propose make it into 2 sets of faiths North and South whatever...
North: is for the Empire, Kislev, Norsca
South is for Brettionia, Estalia, Tilea (that is a hard choice they created the precursers to the young gods, morr etc..), Albion
They can lead to different faiths...
North: Ursun, Sigmar, Norse Pantheon, Young gods
South: The Lady, Young gods, the old gods, Tilean Pantheon, Precurser gods... etc
Just to show there would have been differences in these pre young god faiths... the empire, kislev and norsca would have had a different spin on their nature gods based on the difficult enviroments they lived in.... compared to the south where life is a bit easier no large large forests no chaos knocking at your door etc...
@ Psychic_Llamas concerning Sigmar as a fraud he never said he was a god the worship devolped and people belived he was a god simple they made him into one. He was in life a very gifted warrior king with a hint of the divine/
(BTW i love tha religon mod it is pure gold hoping it can be implimented but even so if it isnt i think that splitting it into 2 faiths would make it easier assuming we can get more than 8 in which case it is moot anyway)
@ Psychic_Llamas concerning WFRP. It isnt canon as such but your right it should be stressed that it does have infomation that we do not have access to any other way
I think the rules should be:
1. Canon supersedes any other infomation
2. In the event of no conflict with the 1st rule it should be taken on
3. Except if it conflicts with a logical progression of canon
I want to use it would be useful and great to flesh out the underdevolped races. If you use WFRP or anything before the Ogre Kindoms army book for Ogres it cannot be considered canon if it conflicts with what the book lays down. If it does not conflict with rule 1 it should be taken under consideration. Then it must be as logical progression of Canon e.g Ogres can fly... then why the hell do they walk in the board game and in the black libary works and in the army book?? so that would not be a logical progression of Canon. But for Ind saying that Chaos has an influence in its culture would be acceptable provided it did not conflict with the fact that Ind is not reconizably Chaos. I could stomach that it may have a strong chaos or that some of there gods are chaos gods.. but not that the nation is completely chaotic for instance it conflicts with all the infomation which mentions nothing about this. Strong Chaos cult yes, chaos gods yes, all chaos no.
@ Psychic_Llamas house spirits are hopefully covered... but it does raise a point... it says the most observant of the nations of the old world? do others do it as well just not as much. I believe my talk about North, South relations effectively scraps the need for this.
@ Psychic_Llamas Chaos is very adaptive and very versatile its cults are not blatant they indoctranate members slowly into the cult. A low level member might only attend a Tzentian cult and learn nothing but a simple ritual. As they progress they will get more and more drawn into the cult and learn more... suffice to say Witch hunters dont care what level you are they will burn you all at the stake...
I dont see it as likely that Chaos will take over a whole country, subvert allready existing practices yes, but not blatantly converting a nation
@ Psychic_Llamas Religous values for some relgions should be turned way up to convert to it... Lizardmen converting to Chaos i mean WTH that would be comic in the extreme... but also some values should be turned down Sigmar in Kislev why not he is a warrior god and they are a warrior people? etc
@Arathlan Oh and lets not forget that High Elves were utterly sickened by the cult of Slaanesh and would never have turned to worshipping chaos they have trouble doing it.... old ones either created them like that or it was allready in built along with there Xenophobia, girlishness, dislike of black powder because its noisy? and all that jazz they just sorta crack me up
@Arathlan Wood elves are regarded by the rest of the elves as savages not even elves. Simply speaking they consider them barbarian elves at best and at worst not even elves on a par with men
High elves are not good in a LOTR sense they are fickle, capricous and self serving (same with the Eldar but thats a different matter) they taught men (the empire) how to use magic properly so they could act as a speed bump to Chaos... not because they love them. I dont even think that they think they can win against Chaos or hold out forever they are dying out very quickly... Dark Elves likewise are the weakest they have ever been they are forced to raid for slaves in Tilea the weakest of all the old world nations, the lizardmen cities because they are on the brink of tettering as well, the Southland and Araby about the most backward bits of the world.... sad to say.... they have had to curtail raids to the stronger bits of the world because they cannot afford to do it properly... what i dont understand is why the hell anyone figures its cheaper to work your slaves to death i mean its a how many thousand km journey to get new ones? (warhammer world is earth sized) why not feed em and that way they would last alot longer... elves also suck at economics and at the slave trade... to stupid and superior to be Machavellian (who is alive in Tilea at least the Warhammer version of him)
Yeah getting tired and suffering from RI from all the typing suffice to say that should cover it for a bit
The Old Faith: you are making an assumption that all the old gods were the same... i believe that it is not likely that they were so i propose make it into 2 sets of faiths North and South whatever...
North: is for the Empire, Kislev, Norsca
South is for Brettionia, Estalia, Tilea (that is a hard choice they created the precursers to the young gods, morr etc..), Albion
They can lead to different faiths...
North: Ursun, Sigmar, Norse Pantheon, Young gods
South: The Lady, Young gods, the old gods, Tilean Pantheon, Precurser gods... etc
Just to show there would have been differences in these pre young god faiths... the empire, kislev and norsca would have had a different spin on their nature gods based on the difficult enviroments they lived in.... compared to the south where life is a bit easier no large large forests no chaos knocking at your door etc...
@ Psychic_Llamas concerning Sigmar as a fraud he never said he was a god the worship devolped and people belived he was a god simple they made him into one. He was in life a very gifted warrior king with a hint of the divine
/ (BTW i love tha religon mod it is pure gold
hoping it can be implimented but even so if it isnt i think that splitting it into 2 faiths would make it easier assuming we can get more than 8 in which case it is moot anyway)@ Psychic_Llamas concerning WFRP. It isnt canon as such but your right it should be stressed that it does have infomation that we do not have access to any other way
I think the rules should be:
1. Canon supersedes any other infomation
2. In the event of no conflict with the 1st rule it should be taken on
3. Except if it conflicts with a logical progression of canon
I want to use it would be useful and great to flesh out the underdevolped races. If you use WFRP or anything before the Ogre Kindoms army book for Ogres it cannot be considered canon if it conflicts with what the book lays down. If it does not conflict with rule 1 it should be taken under consideration. Then it must be as logical progression of Canon e.g Ogres can fly... then why the hell do they walk in the board game and in the black libary works and in the army book?? so that would not be a logical progression of Canon. But for Ind saying that Chaos has an influence in its culture would be acceptable provided it did not conflict with the fact that Ind is not reconizably Chaos. I could stomach that it may have a strong chaos or that some of there gods are chaos gods.. but not that the nation is completely chaotic for instance it conflicts with all the infomation which mentions nothing about this. Strong Chaos cult yes, chaos gods yes, all chaos no.
@ Psychic_Llamas house spirits are hopefully covered... but it does raise a point... it says the most observant of the nations of the old world? do others do it as well just not as much. I believe my talk about North, South relations effectively scraps the need for this.
@ Psychic_Llamas Chaos is very adaptive and very versatile its cults are not blatant they indoctranate members slowly into the cult. A low level member might only attend a Tzentian cult and learn nothing but a simple ritual. As they progress they will get more and more drawn into the cult and learn more... suffice to say Witch hunters dont care what level you are they will burn you all at the stake...
I dont see it as likely that Chaos will take over a whole country, subvert allready existing practices yes, but not blatantly converting a nation
@ Psychic_Llamas Religous values for some relgions should be turned way up to convert to it... Lizardmen converting to Chaos i mean WTH that would be comic in the extreme... but also some values should be turned down Sigmar in Kislev why not he is a warrior god and they are a warrior people? etc
@Arathlan Oh and lets not forget that High Elves were utterly sickened by the cult of Slaanesh and would never have turned to worshipping chaos they have trouble doing it.... old ones either created them like that or it was allready in built along with there Xenophobia, girlishness, dislike of black powder because its noisy? and all that jazz
they just sorta crack me up @Arathlan Wood elves are regarded by the rest of the elves as savages not even elves. Simply speaking they consider them barbarian elves at best and at worst not even elves on a par with men
High elves are not good in a LOTR sense they are fickle, capricous and self serving (same with the Eldar but thats a different matter) they taught men (the empire) how to use magic properly so they could act as a speed bump to Chaos... not because they love them. I dont even think that they think they can win against Chaos or hold out forever they are dying out very quickly... Dark Elves likewise are the weakest they have ever been they are forced to raid for slaves in Tilea the weakest of all the old world nations, the lizardmen cities because they are on the brink of tettering as well, the Southland and Araby about the most backward bits of the world.... sad to say.... they have had to curtail raids to the stronger bits of the world because they cannot afford to do it properly... what i dont understand is why the hell anyone figures its cheaper to work your slaves to death i mean its a how many thousand km journey to get new ones? (warhammer world is earth sized) why not feed em and that way they would last alot longer... elves also suck at economics and at the slave trade... to stupid and superior to be Machavellian (who is alive in Tilea at least the Warhammer version of him)
Yeah getting tired and suffering from RI from all the typing suffice to say that should cover it for a bit
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
well, i think i would agree with you on having the north and south human gods, but we would need to think of a good name for them. (thanks for all that info on Kislev. REALLY usefull.)
I also agree to your method for WFRP. sounds good. but just keep in mind that not everything in the canon WH history will be suitable to be converted into civ. so suitability is a higher priority IMO.
Ok, i understand the House Spirita now. (i think they need a better name though)
Im not sure if altering the conversion probability for races is possible. will have to wait for Ploe or Olleus to say something about that.(it is a good idea though)
I think you have misrepresented the Woodelves there. (i play as Woodelves, theyre my favourite) Woodelves are not shunned by the highelves, its the other way around, WE shun HE because they abandoned them during those early wars, to be killed and have thier homes destroyed. the Woodelves were forced to migrate into the forest, convince it they were not going to harm it, befrendthe forst spirits etc etc. Also, the woodelves are a neutural race. they see 'good' as those who defent Athel Loren, and 'evil' as those who fight Athel Loren. because of this, WE have befrended the Bretonnians in a fragile way, with a silent truce between the 2 races. this is also why Ariel is on a constant war with Cyanathir (i think that was his name, big evil Beastman who never dies) she will never cease to hent him until Athel Loren is safe, so they see the Beastmen as evil. WE are no more barbaric than the highelves. they are equally as cultured, and traditional, but they have developed s diversity in thier culture to link close to thier homes. just because they like living in nature, not in massive stone towers does not make them barbaric . (sorry, i had to say that 
)
)I also agree to your method for WFRP. sounds good. but just keep in mind that not everything in the canon WH history will be suitable to be converted into civ. so suitability is a higher priority IMO.
Ok, i understand the House Spirita now. (i think they need a better name though
)Im not sure if altering the conversion probability for races is possible. will have to wait for Ploe or Olleus to say something about that.(it is a good idea though
)I think you have misrepresented the Woodelves there. (i play as Woodelves, theyre my favourite
) Woodelves are not shunned by the highelves, its the other way around, WE shun HE because they abandoned them during those early wars, to be killed and have thier homes destroyed. the Woodelves were forced to migrate into the forest, convince it they were not going to harm it, befrendthe forst spirits etc etc. Also, the woodelves are a neutural race. they see 'good' as those who defent Athel Loren, and 'evil' as those who fight Athel Loren. because of this, WE have befrended the Bretonnians in a fragile way, with a silent truce between the 2 races. this is also why Ariel is on a constant war with Cyanathir (i think that was his name, big evil Beastman who never dies) she will never cease to hent him until Athel Loren is safe, so they see the Beastmen as evil. WE are no more barbaric than the highelves. they are equally as cultured, and traditional, but they have developed s diversity in thier culture to link close to thier homes. just because they like living in nature, not in massive stone towers does not make them barbaric . (sorry, i had to say that )@Psychic_Llamas concerning religions hopefully in the scenario it will break up the big pool of love that would devolp in the old world... all one faith +8 modifiers=death to war.... still no idea what to call them but oh well that can be left to better minds than mine
@Psychic_Llamas concerning canon i get what you are saying suitability to civ is a good addition but i agree with you it will be impossible to capture the whole dynamic of Warhammer but its all ready turning out to be a bloody good attempt
@Psychic_Llamas concerning House Spirits originally i was just illastrating a point that not all of the old world worshipped a single faith pre young gods... however this split ideas renders the point moot it is really being encoperated to the north vs south idea
@Psychic_Llamas concerning religion base conversion im pretty sure it is... a number of religous mods do something along those lines but i guess until someone says yes or no its an idea
@Psychic_Llamas, the idea of barbarians is relative to the light cast on it... what consitutes a barbarian and what doesnt is relative (which alot of people in the real world need to remeber) what seems alien to one culture may be normal and vice versa.
Woodelves are shunned by the High Elves simply they are to different and to fey to be considered normal... Woodelves do shun other races but that doesnt mean other races dont shun them.
Also while the perspective is relative they are considered by the other elves to be barbarians (wether they are or not...)
The truce with Brettonia is more of a live and let be policy Brettonians dont screw with them... and woodelves dont screw with Brettiona because its against there character...
Oh and i consider all elves to be evil i suffer from a touch of Xenophobia in that respect... to many boltthrower related misshaps killing stuff they are not meant to... crew of a hellblaster, wizard, engineer etc...
@Psychic Llamas "DA RULZ!!! (Orcish for The Rules)
1. Warhammer Canon supersedes any other infomation
including but not limited to: Black Libary Works, WFRP etc
2. In the event of no conflict with the 1st rule the infomation should be taken onto consideration
3. In the event that it does not conflict with the 1st and 2nd rule it may be excepted if it does not follow the logical progression of canon
4. However suitibilitity to the Warhammer Fanstasy Battles mod may supersede Canon if it does not conflict to heavily to the accepted given of the game as a whole
Is that a better version? it allows for some canon to be reversed to give greater depth to the mod but not if it affects the game as a whole.
5. All must bow before Masada and seek divine guidance
@Psychic_Llamas concerning canon i get what you are saying suitability to civ is a good addition but i agree with you it will be impossible to capture the whole dynamic of Warhammer but its all ready turning out to be a bloody good attempt
@Psychic_Llamas concerning House Spirits originally i was just illastrating a point that not all of the old world worshipped a single faith pre young gods... however this split ideas renders the point moot it is really being encoperated to the north vs south idea
@Psychic_Llamas concerning religion base conversion im pretty sure it is... a number of religous mods do something along those lines but i guess until someone says yes or no its an idea
@Psychic_Llamas, the idea of barbarians is relative to the light cast on it... what consitutes a barbarian and what doesnt is relative (which alot of people in the real world need to remeber) what seems alien to one culture may be normal and vice versa.
Woodelves are shunned by the High Elves simply they are to different and to fey to be considered normal... Woodelves do shun other races but that doesnt mean other races dont shun them.
Also while the perspective is relative they are considered by the other elves to be barbarians (wether they are or not...)
The truce with Brettonia is more of a live and let be policy Brettonians dont screw with them... and woodelves dont screw with Brettiona because its against there character...
Oh and i consider all elves to be evil
i suffer from a touch of Xenophobia in that respect... to many boltthrower related misshaps killing stuff they are not meant to... crew of a hellblaster, wizard, engineer etc...@Psychic Llamas "DA RULZ!!! (Orcish for The Rules)
1. Warhammer Canon supersedes any other infomation
including but not limited to: Black Libary Works, WFRP etc
2. In the event of no conflict with the 1st rule the infomation should be taken onto consideration
3. In the event that it does not conflict with the 1st and 2nd rule it may be excepted if it does not follow the logical progression of canon
4. However suitibilitity to the Warhammer Fanstasy Battles mod may supersede Canon if it does not conflict to heavily to the accepted given of the game as a whole
Is that a better version? it allows for some canon to be reversed to give greater depth to the mod but not if it affects the game as a whole.
5. All must bow before Masada and seek divine guidance
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
ok, thet rule is good. except number 5, it really should be "All must bow before Psychic Llamas and seek divine guidance from the great Llama in the sky jkcan you grab the list of religions in the 3rd or 4th post and edit the north and south human religions in? that way i can see EXACTLY what you are thinking.
Hey, just because elves are better than orcs dosnt mean they are evil
jk(OMG, i just realiazed my typing in my last post was shocking! im surprised you were able to understand it
)Old Faiths:
Northen Gods (gods of winter etc)
The Empire, Kislev, Norsca
Southern Gods (gods of plenty etc)
Bretonnia, Estalia, Albion
Elves leave as is...
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)
Dwarves leave as is
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves
Old ones leave as is
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians
Rename (Ormzad Pantheon)
Araby, Khemri, Lhamia
Leave as is
-The Indic Pantheon --- Ind
Maybe include Cathay and Nippon religions and split it into 2 religous techs maybe? i dont know cant have to many religions on one tech?
Young Gods
Leave as is...
Old World Pantheon
The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca (shouldnt be in here move into Norse Pantheon?
Norse Pantheon
Norsca, Kislev and maybe the Empire for diversity as well as other..?
Cut it maybe? from here?
Children of Chaos Chaos, beastmen, Chaos Dwarves, Ind, Skaven
Cut it from here
Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
Cut it from here
Sigmar --- The Empire
Dark Children [/B
Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash?
Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania
The Horned Rat
Skaven
Cut it and just put in Chaos undivided...?
Gods of the Dark Forge
Chaos Dwarves
No idea about this cant really decide....
Chaos
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves
-Children of Chaos---Chaos, Beastmen, Hung, Kurgan, Norsca, Ind.
Past this point it all gets messy.... i cant really decide...
Gods of Law
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd / Al-Alnon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire
Mortal Gods.
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)
Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)
Northen Gods (gods of winter etc)
The Empire, Kislev, Norsca
Southern Gods (gods of plenty etc)
Bretonnia, Estalia, Albion
Elves leave as is...
-Asuryanism / Cult of Asuryanism --- High Elves (as well as the other elves)
-Cult of Khaine --- Dark elves (as well as the other elves)
-Followers of Isha --- Wood Elves (as well as the other elves)
Dwarves leave as is
-Dwarven Pantheon (Morngrim/ Grungni/ Rukh)--- Dwarves
Old ones leave as is
-The Old Ones --- Lizardmen, Amazonians
Rename (Ormzad Pantheon)
Araby, Khemri, Lhamia
Leave as is
-The Indic Pantheon --- Ind
Maybe include Cathay and Nippon religions and split it into 2 religous techs maybe? i dont know cant have to many religions on one tech?
Young Gods
Leave as is...
Old World Pantheon
The Empire, Bretonnia, Tilia, Estalia, Kislev, Norsca (shouldnt be in here move into Norse Pantheon?
Norse Pantheon
Norsca, Kislev and maybe the Empire for diversity as well as other..?
Cut it maybe? from here?
Children of Chaos Chaos, beastmen, Chaos Dwarves, Ind, Skaven
Cut it from here
Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
Cut it from here
Sigmar --- The Empire
Dark Children [/B
Cult of Nagash /Veneration of Nagash / Pogrency of Nagash?
Khemri, Lhamia, Sylvania
The Horned Rat
Skaven
Cut it and just put in Chaos undivided...?
Gods of the Dark Forge
Chaos Dwarves
No idea about this cant really decide....
Chaos
-Nurgle --- Chaos, Beastmen
-Tzeentch ---Chaos, Beastmen
-Khorne---Chaos, Beastmen
-Slaanesh---Chaos, Beastmen, Dark Elves
-Chaos Undivided---Chaos, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves
-Children of Chaos---Chaos, Beastmen, Hung, Kurgan, Norsca, Ind.
Past this point it all gets messy.... i cant really decide...
Gods of Law
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (Possibly nippon as well?)
-Jintoism --- Nippon (Possibly Cathay as well?)
-Ormazd / Al-Alnon --- Araby, Khemri
-Sigmar --- Empire
Mortal Gods.
-Lady of the Lake --- Bretonnia
-Sigmar --- The Empire
-Ursin --- Kislev
-Cult of Celestial Dragon --- Cathay (they worship their emperors as gods)
Barbaric Gods
-Orcs (Gork and Mork)
-Gobbos (Gork and Mork)
-Hobgoblin Hegemony (Worship of the Great Khans?)
-Ogre Lords (The Great Maw)
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Oh, Ok. i see now, thanks
Is there any point to having the young gods if your going to move them all to the old gods?? (this is a rhetorical question btw ) im going to move the northern gods and southern gods to young gods ok. (as i said before, Old gods is primarily for religions berfore the rise of man, with only the Old Faith to represent old worlder humans here.)
Ok, ill Rename Ormzad Pantheon
you're right, ill cut Children of chaos from young gods.
Ill keep Gods of the dark forge in Dark Children i think.
yep, ill just put Sigmar and the Lady in Mortal gods, not in young gods.
Any better?
Is there any point to having the young gods if your going to move them all to the old gods?? (this is a rhetorical question btw
) im going to move the northern gods and southern gods to young gods ok. (as i said before, Old gods is primarily for religions berfore the rise of man, with only the Old Faith to represent old worlder humans here.)Ok, ill Rename Ormzad Pantheon
you're right, ill cut Children of chaos from young gods.
Ill keep Gods of the dark forge in Dark Children i think.
yep, ill just put Sigmar and the Lady in Mortal gods, not in young gods.
Spoiler :
Any better?
getting there... its looking much better not much else that i can add apart from moving old world pantheon to Mortal gods maybe? but im a bit tired and i cant really think of much else to add/tweak going to have to see what the bosses think
bout time we asked for there feedback
bout time we asked for there feedback
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
yes, but before we can do that, we need to see what possible religions there are. (besides, i think were done here now, so we can start thinking about what they all DO now )
Ok, so starting with the "Old Faiths" Religion:
In General: I propose that this has a slow spread rate, with cheaper priests than other religions.
Its temples and Shrines should be more expensive, but will have stronger effects than the other religions.
Sub Religions:
-The Old Faith
Can only build Temples. each shrine makes magic casters slightly cheaper, and allows priests to start with one free spell.
---Buildings:
Altar= none
Temple= Coven
Cathederal= none
Monument= ???
-Asuryanism
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Flame
Temple= Temple of Asuryan
Cathederal= Hall of the Phoenix
Monument= The Shrine of Asuryan
-Cult of Khaine
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= The Blood Altar
Temple= Temple of Khaine
Cathederal= Hall of Murder
Monument= The Shrine of Khaine
-Followers of Isha
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacred Tree
Temple= Isha's Grove
Cathederal= Oaken Hall
Monument= The Tears of Isha
-Dwarven Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= Temple of the Dwarf Gods
Cathederal= Hall of the Elders
Monument= ???
-The Old Ones
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacrificial Altar
Temple= Temple of the old Ones
Cathederal= Pyramid Temple
Monument= The Marks of the Old Ones
-Ormzad Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= ???
Cathederal= ???
Monument= ???
-The Indic Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= ???
Cathederal= ???
Monument= ???
(this is just one way we could do it)
)Ok, so starting with the "Old Faiths" Religion:
In General: I propose that this has a slow spread rate, with cheaper priests than other religions.
Its temples and Shrines should be more expensive, but will have stronger effects than the other religions.
Sub Religions:
-The Old Faith
Can only build Temples. each shrine makes magic casters slightly cheaper, and allows priests to start with one free spell.
---Buildings:
Altar= none
Temple= Coven
Cathederal= none
Monument= ???
-Asuryanism
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Altar of Flame
Temple= Temple of Asuryan
Cathederal= Hall of the Phoenix
Monument= The Shrine of Asuryan
-Cult of Khaine
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= The Blood Altar
Temple= Temple of Khaine
Cathederal= Hall of Murder
Monument= The Shrine of Khaine
-Followers of Isha
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacred Tree
Temple= Isha's Grove
Cathederal= Oaken Hall
Monument= The Tears of Isha
-Dwarven Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= Temple of the Dwarf Gods
Cathederal= Hall of the Elders
Monument= ???
-The Old Ones
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= Sacrificial Altar
Temple= Temple of the old Ones
Cathederal= Pyramid Temple
Monument= The Marks of the Old Ones
-Ormzad Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= ???
Cathederal= ???
Monument= ???
-The Indic Pantheon
??????
---Buildings:
Altar= ???
Temple= ???
Cathederal= ???
Monument= ???
(this is just one way we could do it)
@Lord Olleus ouch that comment hurt... and wasnt justified i dont know but were the pretty lists we made just for show? was discussing the nature of the religions show? im sure you could have deined to tell us if things were possible e.g a limit on the number of religions? etc
Im wondering if the time im pouring into this is worth it if thats the response. I have been deliberating on the matter since that post was posted... and i still havent come to answer if someone wants to assist me in my descion then please do
@Psychic_Llamas a quick list...
The Old Faith/s
Temple should be subbed for Altar fits with the informal nature of the worship, should still be a coven/standing stones/obelisk/ whatever but thats my 2 bob. I agree with the buffs. Monument Calender of the Sun/Moon/whatever might fit with the theme?
Asuryanism
No idea what the buff should be... Asuryanism has links to war go that way or at least martial pride etc
Cult of Khaine
Should make troops better warrior religion to the core well at least it encourages murder which goes hand in hand with war...
Followers of Isha
Ban forest chops (wood elves are green to the core...)/increase food of forests (they live of the damm things and in large part there religion reflected and created that)/better forest related combat (are there better and more annoying forest fighters in the game)?
Dwarven Pantheon
defence (dwarves are defensive by nature.. and there religion tells them to be)/no retreat (because Dwarves are stubborn and there faith reinforces that). Monument book of Gruges (its the pinnacle of the Dwarven faith, maintaining it...), Altar (that thing they carry into battle... memory blank...) or Oath Stone
The Old Ones
this will be hard one to come up with... but it should be science and mages?
Ormzad Pantheon
cheaper mages/cheaper elementals?
Altar: Oasis (i think those have meaning?)
Temple: Complex of the Ormzad?
Catherdral: Center of the Ormzad?
Monument: Gods Home/Inhabbitance of the Ormzad? (there gods are linked to places... i think)
Indic Pantheon
cheaper soldiers? cheaper priests?
Altar Roadside waystation?
Temple Pantheon of Gods/Temple to the Many/Temple of the gods/home of the gods
Cathederal Grand Temple of the many etc
Monument Home of the gods? (we need to have a look at Hinduism that might help..., same as the Ormzad i think there gods are linked...)
@Psychic_Llamas seems to be the best way to go about it... unless someone can come up with better
@Helpful people please read all the posts before passing Judgement and a blistering counterattack...
Im wondering if the time im pouring into this is worth it if thats the response. I have been deliberating on the matter since that post was posted... and i still havent come to answer if someone wants to assist me in my descion then please do
@Psychic_Llamas a quick list...
The Old Faith/s
Temple should be subbed for Altar fits with the informal nature of the worship, should still be a coven/standing stones/obelisk/ whatever but thats my 2 bob. I agree with the buffs. Monument Calender of the Sun/Moon/whatever might fit with the theme?
Asuryanism
No idea what the buff should be... Asuryanism has links to war go that way or at least martial pride etc
Cult of Khaine
Should make troops better warrior religion to the core well at least it encourages murder which goes hand in hand with war...
Followers of Isha
Ban forest chops (wood elves are green to the core...)/increase food of forests (they live of the damm things and in large part there religion reflected and created that)/better forest related combat (are there better and more annoying forest fighters in the game)?
Dwarven Pantheon
defence (dwarves are defensive by nature.. and there religion tells them to be)/no retreat (because Dwarves are stubborn and there faith reinforces that). Monument book of Gruges (its the pinnacle of the Dwarven faith, maintaining it...), Altar (that thing they carry into battle... memory blank...) or Oath Stone
The Old Ones
this will be hard one to come up with... but it should be science and mages?
Ormzad Pantheon
cheaper mages/cheaper elementals?
Altar: Oasis (i think those have meaning?)
Temple: Complex of the Ormzad?
Catherdral: Center of the Ormzad?
Monument: Gods Home/Inhabbitance of the Ormzad? (there gods are linked to places... i think)
Indic Pantheon
cheaper soldiers? cheaper priests?
Altar Roadside waystation?
Temple Pantheon of Gods/Temple to the Many/Temple of the gods/home of the gods
Cathederal Grand Temple of the many etc
Monument Home of the gods? (we need to have a look at Hinduism that might help..., same as the Ormzad i think there gods are linked...)
@Psychic_Llamas seems to be the best way to go about it... unless someone can come up with better
@Helpful people please read all the posts before passing Judgement and a blistering counterattack...
@Lord Olleus thank you for the explanation
@Lord Olleus i can see what you are getting at we were just trying to catorgarize the faiths into catorgories oddly enough to get an idea of what goes where and when... i agree it would help if we knew what we want religions to do, the problem is how warhammer religions work they all do different things e.g
Chaos isnt interested in converting people just taking over the world, those that fight for the Chaos gods have an us and them mentality Chaos tribes dont try to convert and to my knowelgde dont treat the "play" Chaos people who worship Chaos in the empire etc very well... The chaos gods themselves hate all other gods and fight amongst themselves...
Compare that to lets say Sigmarite worship, The Church of Sigmar is more concerned with maintaining its own worshippers than converting people, it doesnt have so much of an us and them mentality but it does tend to look on some gods with scorn and others with comardeship...
Its just the religions themselves have a set way of doing things, giving Chaos only fighting buffs wouldnt fit it doesnt capture Chaos as more than that, not the insidous evil lurking at the gate waiting to drag the unsuspecting and weak into its schemes to take over the world and remake it in its own image, where the militarism is only but a part in the puzzle. Of course Chaos without super fighting abilities wouldnt be Chaos to the majority of players so we sorta get stuck on that...
@Lord Olleus i dont know... UU's yes to an extent many UU's are derived from the faiths of nations they represent, Warrior Priests of god X,Y,C etc, Skinks and Saurus are living constructs of the "gods" the all powerful creators the old ones etc
But Culture? does Chaos, Goblins, Orcs, Skaven etc have culture in a conventional civ sense...? do they occupy stuff through there great libaries and building? no they just occupy it through force of arms... culture yes but not a human idea of culture just a zone of control and what they exert there wills on... (otherwise i agree with you... Vanilla civ religion ideas dont work here )
I just think that religions should be tailored to the attitude of its worshipers and the way its is worshipped... Dwarf gods are just idealized representations of themselves... albiet representations that exist from the power of belief there belivers give them... they even look like what there believers want them to look like...
Your right the founding of a religion should have an event... a reason to bother to change.. free warrrior priets of sigmar popping up from cities and free units appearing when you convert as well as a nice civic change or 2 for free would be a reason to change from whatever faith you had before... and if that faith came into being and you didnt make it your state faith ANARCHY!!! etc? often there is no reason in Vanilla Civ to change from religion to religion execept to keep your neighbours happy? and that isnt very warhamemr ish...
thank you for the explanation@Lord Olleus i can see what you are getting at we were just trying to catorgarize the faiths into catorgories oddly enough
to get an idea of what goes where and when... i agree it would help if we knew what we want religions to do, the problem is how warhammer religions work they all do different things e.g Chaos isnt interested in converting people just taking over the world, those that fight for the Chaos gods have an us and them mentality Chaos tribes dont try to convert and to my knowelgde dont treat the "play" Chaos people who worship Chaos in the empire etc very well... The chaos gods themselves hate all other gods and fight amongst themselves...
Compare that to lets say Sigmarite worship, The Church of Sigmar is more concerned with maintaining its own worshippers than converting people, it doesnt have so much of an us and them mentality but it does tend to look on some gods with scorn and others with comardeship...
Its just the religions themselves have a set way of doing things, giving Chaos only fighting buffs wouldnt fit it doesnt capture Chaos as more than that, not the insidous evil lurking at the gate waiting to drag the unsuspecting and weak into its schemes to take over the world and remake it in its own image, where the militarism is only but a part in the puzzle. Of course Chaos without super fighting abilities wouldnt be Chaos to the majority of players
so we sorta get stuck on that...@Lord Olleus i dont know... UU's yes to an extent many UU's are derived from the faiths of nations they represent, Warrior Priests of god X,Y,C etc, Skinks and Saurus are living constructs of the "gods" the all powerful creators the old ones etc
But Culture? does Chaos, Goblins, Orcs, Skaven etc have culture in a conventional civ sense...? do they occupy stuff through there great libaries and building? no they just occupy it through force of arms... culture yes but not a human idea of culture just a zone of control and what they exert there wills on...
(otherwise i agree with you... Vanilla civ religion ideas dont work here )I just think that religions should be tailored to the attitude of its worshipers and the way its is worshipped... Dwarf gods are just idealized representations of themselves... albiet representations that exist from the power of belief there belivers give them... they even look like what there believers want them to look like...
Your right the founding of a religion should have an event... a reason to bother to change.. free warrrior priets of sigmar popping up from cities and free units appearing when you convert as well as a nice civic change or 2 for free would be a reason to change from whatever faith you had before... and if that faith came into being and you didnt make it your state faith ANARCHY!!! etc? often there is no reason in Vanilla Civ to change from religion to religion execept to keep your neighbours happy? and that isnt very warhamemr ish...
Sorry - I've been studying
@ Masada. I play High Elves, I don't want to cause offence here, but kindly allow me to know a bit about my favourite race. Also, please stop confusing High Elves and Eldar. Eldar are your capracious nutjobs (I play them too, so I know the difference).
@ Phychic Llama
Regarding my organised religion idea.
Essentially:
1) In The Warhammer World, gods exist
2) Gods of the same pantheon can probably coexist together
3) Gods of different pantheons are unlikely to.
4) Religious 'crusades' and 'exterminations' are facts of life
Therefore, I suggested the ability to be able to remove non-state religions.
The problem with breaking the pantheons down from the current 'racial' base to a 'god/cult' base, is that AFAIK precludes point number 2. This is, of course, assuming you would only be able to choose a single cult.
For example - Assume I'm playing High Elves (cos I know them), and I have them worshipping Asuryan. Then I found the cult of Isha, so now I have Asur as my state religion and Isha as another religion present. Then Achaon next door spreads chaos into my cities, and I want to remove it.
The way they are currently implemented in most mods/games, the features I've proposed will work as follows:
Organised Religion - halts the spread of non-state religions:
This will allow the spread of Asur, halt the spread of chaos undivided, but also halt the spread of Isha, which I want because it's characterful (and suppose I founded it too).
Inquisitor (or whatever) - removes non-state religions
Will remove the taint of chaos, but will ALSO remove the worship of Isha.
Thus, breaking things down into cults is a lot more work and quite possibly a lot of coding. The current system of racial gods sidesteps all these issues. Thus, it is SIMPLER to use.
Now.
@ Masada
High Elves started worshipping Chaos. The Cult of Pleasure was founded by Morathi sometime between -4500 and -4900 by the Imperial Calander, during the reign of Aenarion.
"To everyone's surprise, Aenarion took another wife, the strange, mysterious and beautiful seeress Morathi whom he had rescued from a band of Slaanesh worshippers... The courst of Aenarion was a wild place, full of desperate gaiety and feverish mirth. Many cruel sports were practised, such as hunting captured prisoners. Dark rumours abounded."
Then, during the reign of Bel Shanaar the Explorer (-4419 to -2750),
"On [Malekith's] return he found an island in the grip of suspician. The Cult of Pleasure was strongest in Nagarythe, his homeland and the site of his father's court. His mother the Lady Morathi had long been a devotee of the cult. Indeed, legend has it that she was one of its founding members and was its high priestess. The Phoenix King was growing worried about the Cult of Luxury. Its excesses had already degenerated into the sacrifice of living being and its Chaotic nature was increasingly evident. The dark name of Slaanesh was increasing associated with it."
Emphasis mine. This happened just before Malekith turned them over to Bel Shanaar and exiled the lot of them to Naggaroth, the beginnings of the Dark Elves, who he later joined. The point is - the Dark Elves started as High Elves who worshipped Slaanesh. High Elves worshipping Chaos is nothing new.
Regarding the 'goodness' of High Elves. Unfortunately for you, High Elves are good. Largely speaking, the warhammer world is divided into two factions - those connected to Chaos, and those opposed to Chaos. Chaos used both specifically (as in the corrupting magics) and the general term (which is where Orcs and Goblins and to a lesser extent Skaven join in). High Elves are very strongly in the Anti-Chaos camp. Fundamentally, High Elves seek order. If you want to know what they yearn towards you really need to look at how they lived before the first Chaos incursion. However, the only hints come from the brief notes at the start of Aenarion's reign...
"All the Elves could do was flee. Their bows and spears, used only for hunting and duels of honour, were useles against the armour of the Chaos warriors and the brazen hides of Daemons" - Emphasis mine.
I think you're getting confused between 'good' and 'nice'. No one ever said Elves were NICE. They are clever, highly sophisticated, and were civilised when mankind was still swinging through the trees. Thus it does make them rather cold and hauty. They are also quite volatile being 'quick to anger, and slow to forgive'. Which makes sense really - well, the slow to forgive part. If your contemporaries are going to live for several centuries, you have TIME to kiss and make up later.
You also need to realise that it was a very altruistic act on behalf of three High Elves (Teclis, Yrtle and Finreir) that allowed humanity any knowledge of magic at all. Teclis founded the colleges of magic and taught it to humans to keep chaos at bay - that is an act of goodness. Especially considering that, as Finreir pointed out "Elves and men had come to blows in the past and might do so again".
Regarding Wood Elves
High Elves and Wood Elves don't have too much in common - well that's not true. The Elves of Averlorn have much in common with wood elves - they just don't leave Averlorn. However, there IS contact between them - just not much trade, which is, after all, the main reason the Elves sail around the world.
During the Reign of Bel Hathor The Sage (1503-2162), Ulthuan suffered from Norse Raids. Bel Hathor closed it off from humans entirely. During his reign, Finubar (the Current Phoenix King), travelled the world:
"Finubar sailed to L'Anguille in Bretonnia and from there spent fifty years wandering over the continent...In his travels he came upon the lost Elf realm of Athel-Loren. He was at once shcoked and amazed by what he found there. The Elves of the old frontier province had taken a far different path from the High Elves. They seemed rustic and backward and yet they were friendlier and easier from him to understand than the humans." - Emphasis mine.
From this, and from the fact that in 5th Ed you were able to take Wood Elves as allies, it can be concluded that until very recently, the High Elves had lost contact with the Wood Elves entirely. Are they rustic and backward - yes. Does that meant they're seen as barbaric and scorned - no. There simply isn't much for them to get together about - there's not much trade, so there's little contact needed.
Wood Elves are Allied with Bretonnia. It is a formal Alliance, forged primarily between Ariel (who takes care of diplomacy AFAIK) and the current Brettonian King - Louis Leon-something or other. I'm not too familiar with the fine details, and it'll take me a few months to hunt them down as I don't have all my books here.
A note on Asuryan. Asuryan isn't a god of war. He is a god of FATE. "He is the Creator, and the Flame Eternal, the giver of life, rests in his hand. The Elves believe that it is his Purpose and Plan that they follow.
Oh - The high Elves also worship Morai-Heg, the crone goddess of the underworld and served by Banshees... She's on pg. 75 of the 5th Ed High Elf book. Loec the Shadow Dancer appears on page 90.
Khaine is metioned on page 11:
"The Elves see Khaine as a god of unleashed violence. For them he is a dark god, but a necessary one, for they live in a violent world and must be able to fight when called upon to do so. Khaine is part of every Elf soul, a part they would rather never have to confront, but a part that they need. His muder lust is there to be used when danger threatens but it must be controlled and used wisely. Elf rituals of Khaine worship stress this need for control." Emphsis mine.
The high elves, do worship Khaine.
Dark elves are different having 'given themselves over entirely to [Khaine's] worship', and 'actively seek[ing] opportunites to cause death and carnage'.
If you think about it - that's a very good way to distinguish between 'good' and 'evil'. I'm not looking for a fight or a flame war, but Masada - you've said yourself that you don't know quite that much about Warhammer Elves. I do.
Regarding the Civ religions - I could help out with various religious 'shrines' and such - but only if you're going to go there.
Khaine would have the Cauldron of Blood (although that might be DE specific), the Altar of Khaine, and the Sword of Khaine.
Isha would have...hmm... for some reason the Oak of Ages and Gaen Vale are the only two things that spring to mind.
Anyway. I need to go study for exams now...
@ Masada. I play High Elves, I don't want to cause offence here, but kindly allow me to know a bit about my favourite race. Also, please stop confusing High Elves and Eldar. Eldar are your capracious nutjobs (I play them too, so I know the difference).
@ Phychic Llama
Regarding my organised religion idea.
Essentially:
1) In The Warhammer World, gods exist
2) Gods of the same pantheon can probably coexist together
3) Gods of different pantheons are unlikely to.
4) Religious 'crusades' and 'exterminations' are facts of life
Therefore, I suggested the ability to be able to remove non-state religions.
The problem with breaking the pantheons down from the current 'racial' base to a 'god/cult' base, is that AFAIK precludes point number 2. This is, of course, assuming you would only be able to choose a single cult.
For example - Assume I'm playing High Elves (cos I know them
), and I have them worshipping Asuryan. Then I found the cult of Isha, so now I have Asur as my state religion and Isha as another religion present. Then Achaon next door spreads chaos into my cities, and I want to remove it.The way they are currently implemented in most mods/games, the features I've proposed will work as follows:
Organised Religion - halts the spread of non-state religions:
This will allow the spread of Asur, halt the spread of chaos undivided, but also halt the spread of Isha, which I want because it's characterful (and suppose I founded it too).
Inquisitor (or whatever) - removes non-state religions
Will remove the taint of chaos, but will ALSO remove the worship of Isha.
Thus, breaking things down into cults is a lot more work and quite possibly a lot of coding. The current system of racial gods sidesteps all these issues. Thus, it is SIMPLER to use.
Now.
@ Masada
High Elves started worshipping Chaos. The Cult of Pleasure was founded by Morathi sometime between -4500 and -4900 by the Imperial Calander, during the reign of Aenarion.
"To everyone's surprise, Aenarion took another wife, the strange, mysterious and beautiful seeress Morathi whom he had rescued from a band of Slaanesh worshippers... The courst of Aenarion was a wild place, full of desperate gaiety and feverish mirth. Many cruel sports were practised, such as hunting captured prisoners. Dark rumours abounded."
Then, during the reign of Bel Shanaar the Explorer (-4419 to -2750),
"On [Malekith's] return he found an island in the grip of suspician. The Cult of Pleasure was strongest in Nagarythe, his homeland and the site of his father's court. His mother the Lady Morathi had long been a devotee of the cult. Indeed, legend has it that she was one of its founding members and was its high priestess. The Phoenix King was growing worried about the Cult of Luxury. Its excesses had already degenerated into the sacrifice of living being and its Chaotic nature was increasingly evident. The dark name of Slaanesh was increasing associated with it."
Emphasis mine. This happened just before Malekith turned them over to Bel Shanaar and exiled the lot of them to Naggaroth, the beginnings of the Dark Elves, who he later joined. The point is - the Dark Elves started as High Elves who worshipped Slaanesh. High Elves worshipping Chaos is nothing new.
Regarding the 'goodness' of High Elves. Unfortunately for you, High Elves are good. Largely speaking, the warhammer world is divided into two factions - those connected to Chaos, and those opposed to Chaos. Chaos used both specifically (as in the corrupting magics) and the general term (which is where Orcs and Goblins and to a lesser extent Skaven join in). High Elves are very strongly in the Anti-Chaos camp. Fundamentally, High Elves seek order. If you want to know what they yearn towards you really need to look at how they lived before the first Chaos incursion. However, the only hints come from the brief notes at the start of Aenarion's reign...
"All the Elves could do was flee. Their bows and spears, used only for hunting and duels of honour, were useles against the armour of the Chaos warriors and the brazen hides of Daemons" - Emphasis mine.
I think you're getting confused between 'good' and 'nice'. No one ever said Elves were NICE. They are clever, highly sophisticated, and were civilised when mankind was still swinging through the trees. Thus it does make them rather cold and hauty. They are also quite volatile being 'quick to anger, and slow to forgive'. Which makes sense really - well, the slow to forgive part. If your contemporaries are going to live for several centuries, you have TIME to kiss and make up later.
You also need to realise that it was a very altruistic act on behalf of three High Elves (Teclis, Yrtle and Finreir) that allowed humanity any knowledge of magic at all. Teclis founded the colleges of magic and taught it to humans to keep chaos at bay - that is an act of goodness. Especially considering that, as Finreir pointed out "Elves and men had come to blows in the past and might do so again".
Regarding Wood Elves
High Elves and Wood Elves don't have too much in common - well that's not true. The Elves of Averlorn have much in common with wood elves - they just don't leave Averlorn. However, there IS contact between them - just not much trade, which is, after all, the main reason the Elves sail around the world.
During the Reign of Bel Hathor The Sage (1503-2162), Ulthuan suffered from Norse Raids. Bel Hathor closed it off from humans entirely. During his reign, Finubar (the Current Phoenix King), travelled the world:
"Finubar sailed to L'Anguille in Bretonnia and from there spent fifty years wandering over the continent...In his travels he came upon the lost Elf realm of Athel-Loren. He was at once shcoked and amazed by what he found there. The Elves of the old frontier province had taken a far different path from the High Elves. They seemed rustic and backward and yet they were friendlier and easier from him to understand than the humans." - Emphasis mine.
From this, and from the fact that in 5th Ed you were able to take Wood Elves as allies, it can be concluded that until very recently, the High Elves had lost contact with the Wood Elves entirely. Are they rustic and backward - yes. Does that meant they're seen as barbaric and scorned - no. There simply isn't much for them to get together about - there's not much trade, so there's little contact needed.
Wood Elves are Allied with Bretonnia. It is a formal Alliance, forged primarily between Ariel (who takes care of diplomacy AFAIK) and the current Brettonian King - Louis Leon-something or other. I'm not too familiar with the fine details, and it'll take me a few months to hunt them down as I don't have all my books here.
A note on Asuryan. Asuryan isn't a god of war. He is a god of FATE. "He is the Creator, and the Flame Eternal, the giver of life, rests in his hand. The Elves believe that it is his Purpose and Plan that they follow.
Oh - The high Elves also worship Morai-Heg, the crone goddess of the underworld and served by Banshees... She's on pg. 75 of the 5th Ed High Elf book. Loec the Shadow Dancer appears on page 90.
Khaine is metioned on page 11:
"The Elves see Khaine as a god of unleashed violence. For them he is a dark god, but a necessary one, for they live in a violent world and must be able to fight when called upon to do so. Khaine is part of every Elf soul, a part they would rather never have to confront, but a part that they need. His muder lust is there to be used when danger threatens but it must be controlled and used wisely. Elf rituals of Khaine worship stress this need for control." Emphsis mine.
The high elves, do worship Khaine.
Dark elves are different having 'given themselves over entirely to [Khaine's] worship', and 'actively seek[ing] opportunites to cause death and carnage'.
If you think about it - that's a very good way to distinguish between 'good' and 'evil'. I'm not looking for a fight or a flame war, but Masada - you've said yourself that you don't know quite that much about Warhammer Elves. I do.
Regarding the Civ religions - I could help out with various religious 'shrines' and such - but only if you're going to go there.
Khaine would have the Cauldron of Blood (although that might be DE specific), the Altar of Khaine, and the Sword of Khaine.
Isha would have...hmm... for some reason the Oak of Ages and Gaen Vale are the only two things that spring to mind.
Anyway. I need to go study for exams now...
@Arathlan i agree that high elves are not as bad as Eldar... they still are horrendously arrogant and self centered.. but aside from all their faults they are not eldar...
@Arathlan yes and no to organized religions. Inquisitor/witch hunters/priests of morr whatever they do remove religions/ideologies from areas... through burnings/killings etc and I do think they should play a part in the mod. However there are notable exceptions where I don’t think its justified... some civs don’t have any kind of religious give examples include Lizardmen, Chaos sorta etc they have no reason to worship other gods or there religion exempts them from it.
I also agree with Racial gods.. but cults do play a part, a limited implementation of them would be preferable to a full scale implementation. The Lady and Sigmar are Brettionia and the Empire incarnate they represent the national character and the nation as a whole. Its a bit rich to say that they are just cults they are religions and important... individual chaos cults, no chaos cult cult would be good just to represent that dynamic that is chaos.
@Arathlan i agree that Slannesh worship in the high elves was fairly strong... but to the extent of taking over the nation? that I don’t think is a logical conclusion, the Dark elf book states that many of the exiles had done nothing wrong they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
On the wood elf debate.. let it be said that Wood elves have changed a great deal since 5th edition... just look at the old army book and the new and tell me an about face hasn’t happened. However nothing much in this matters.. we could keep throwing arguments and counter arguments around for a fair bit... so lets leave it alone.
I will wade into the argument about "good" and "evil'...
So they fight Chaos? everyone does... everyone even Chaos fights itself big deal Chaos spends more of its time fighting itself that it does fighting anyone else... If we applied that logic to good and evil... then Archaon would be a saint he killed a heck of alot of other Chaos warlords and his own supporters. Lizardmen would fall pretty low in the Chaos killing count wouldn’t they hiding in Lustria so Lizardmen are evil by that definition... oh and Dark elves fight Chaos alot.... are they good?
It doesn’t matter if you fight Chaos or not. Orc's and Goblins are not evil, simply speaking they cannot do anything else its how they are. Saurus are living weapons created just for that purpose they cannot be evil its what they do. Its like saying that a spider is evil because it kills other spiders, its what that spider does. Everything in the Warhammer world is a construct or the result of a freak accident. The constructs were created by the old ones given different purposes and all bar 3 are failing in that given purpose. Skinks, Saurus and Slann are the only constructs doing their jobs properly.
How can a living tool designed for a purpose and doing that purpose be evil. The old ones must have been beyond smart.. they are living gods in the scope of their power. Simply speaking all of the races are babes in arms compared to them.
Elves are clever so? highly sophisticated perhaps, civilized compared to humanity for a time yes. Yes they are cold and haughty. They are volatile being quick to anger and cold to forgive but then so are alot of humans. They do live for a long period that allows some of there faults to forgiven..
Elves are clever much good it has done them they act like humans just on a longer time period. They make mistakes, cause rifts etc. But they are relics, they have not advanced in any great way for a long long long time (you cant say they haven’t had the time to do it), they haven’t reconciled there "wayward" kin and i sympathize with the Dark elves there methods might be disgusting but there reasons are understandable. They are dying out and have really made no concentrated attempt to stop it. Are isolationist bigots with very low regard for the rest of the world and consider themselves somehow better than everyone else.
Altruistic? i call it self preservation.. and common sense the High elves would have lost and been destroyed maybe it would have taken a 100 years or 200 but they would have died completely.. Altruistic if you are completely arrogant, self centered, bigoted and stupid in the extreme. They didn’t do it out of any high minded principle they did it because it was the smartest thing to do. "Elves and men had come to blows in the past and might do so again" so? i don’t see any concentrated human genocidal plan to annihilate all the elves in the world.. but the Chaos gods most certainly hold that plan very close to their chests. So given a choice between a potential foe and a foe whose job, existence and planning involves removing my whole race from the world i know who i would give help to... better an a foe who isn’t trying to wipe you out than a foe who is...
And if i may correct you on the assumption that humanity had no knowledge before the elves showed them... human mages in the empire existed just in secret because it offensive to the cult of Sigmar. None the less Magnus the Pious (Sigmar reincarnate) even before Teclis, Yrtle and Finreir was amenable to magic.
Its gothic Fantasy there is no real good, it isn’t LOTR (which is sickening in the extreme sometimes...) there is no absolute good. We could be going at this for a long time but I don’t think it helps the mod one bit... i don’t like elves you like elves I vote we end hostilities.
Wood elves and Brettonian official treat is said not to exist in the Brettionian current army book...
I know about Morai-Heg and Loec. Khaine is worshipped by all elves... but in differening amounts do high elves sacrifice hundreds of slaves and members of there own family to Khaine every year? It can be argued that Asuryan has the most power withing the High elves...
On this note we are just trying to show the way the Pantheon is stacked or at least worshipped. Psychic_Llamas mentioned that fact somewhere along the conversation..
Yes and i want to avoid a flame war but i have still played elves (of all types at some stage) read their army books... and i do like the fluff of Warhammer more than the game itself and i read everything. But yes i do want to avoid a flame war lets leave the above comments as is. And flame wars mean I have to start typing in perfect grammatical English, which I loathe I speak perfect English but written English…
@Arathlan yes and no to organized religions. Inquisitor/witch hunters/priests of morr whatever they do remove religions/ideologies from areas... through burnings/killings etc and I do think they should play a part in the mod. However there are notable exceptions where I don’t think its justified... some civs don’t have any kind of religious give examples include Lizardmen, Chaos sorta etc they have no reason to worship other gods or there religion exempts them from it.
I also agree with Racial gods.. but cults do play a part, a limited implementation of them would be preferable to a full scale implementation. The Lady and Sigmar are Brettionia and the Empire incarnate they represent the national character and the nation as a whole. Its a bit rich to say that they are just cults they are religions and important... individual chaos cults, no chaos cult cult would be good just to represent that dynamic that is chaos.
@Arathlan i agree that Slannesh worship in the high elves was fairly strong... but to the extent of taking over the nation? that I don’t think is a logical conclusion, the Dark elf book states that many of the exiles had done nothing wrong they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
On the wood elf debate.. let it be said that Wood elves have changed a great deal since 5th edition... just look at the old army book and the new and tell me an about face hasn’t happened. However nothing much in this matters.. we could keep throwing arguments and counter arguments around for a fair bit... so lets leave it alone.
I will wade into the argument about "good" and "evil'...
So they fight Chaos? everyone does... everyone even Chaos fights itself big deal Chaos spends more of its time fighting itself that it does fighting anyone else... If we applied that logic to good and evil... then Archaon would be a saint he killed a heck of alot of other Chaos warlords and his own supporters. Lizardmen would fall pretty low in the Chaos killing count wouldn’t they hiding in Lustria so Lizardmen are evil by that definition... oh and Dark elves fight Chaos alot.... are they good?
It doesn’t matter if you fight Chaos or not. Orc's and Goblins are not evil, simply speaking they cannot do anything else its how they are. Saurus are living weapons created just for that purpose they cannot be evil its what they do. Its like saying that a spider is evil because it kills other spiders, its what that spider does. Everything in the Warhammer world is a construct or the result of a freak accident. The constructs were created by the old ones given different purposes and all bar 3 are failing in that given purpose. Skinks, Saurus and Slann are the only constructs doing their jobs properly.
How can a living tool designed for a purpose and doing that purpose be evil. The old ones must have been beyond smart.. they are living gods in the scope of their power. Simply speaking all of the races are babes in arms compared to them.
Elves are clever so? highly sophisticated perhaps, civilized compared to humanity for a time yes. Yes they are cold and haughty. They are volatile being quick to anger and cold to forgive but then so are alot of humans. They do live for a long period that allows some of there faults to forgiven..
Elves are clever much good it has done them they act like humans just on a longer time period. They make mistakes, cause rifts etc. But they are relics, they have not advanced in any great way for a long long long time (you cant say they haven’t had the time to do it), they haven’t reconciled there "wayward" kin and i sympathize with the Dark elves there methods might be disgusting but there reasons are understandable. They are dying out and have really made no concentrated attempt to stop it. Are isolationist bigots with very low regard for the rest of the world and consider themselves somehow better than everyone else.
Altruistic? i call it self preservation.. and common sense the High elves would have lost and been destroyed maybe it would have taken a 100 years or 200 but they would have died completely.. Altruistic if you are completely arrogant, self centered, bigoted and stupid in the extreme. They didn’t do it out of any high minded principle they did it because it was the smartest thing to do. "Elves and men had come to blows in the past and might do so again" so? i don’t see any concentrated human genocidal plan to annihilate all the elves in the world.. but the Chaos gods most certainly hold that plan very close to their chests. So given a choice between a potential foe and a foe whose job, existence and planning involves removing my whole race from the world i know who i would give help to... better an a foe who isn’t trying to wipe you out than a foe who is...
And if i may correct you on the assumption that humanity had no knowledge before the elves showed them... human mages in the empire existed just in secret because it offensive to the cult of Sigmar. None the less Magnus the Pious (Sigmar reincarnate) even before Teclis, Yrtle and Finreir was amenable to magic.
Its gothic Fantasy there is no real good, it isn’t LOTR (which is sickening in the extreme sometimes...) there is no absolute good. We could be going at this for a long time but I don’t think it helps the mod one bit... i don’t like elves you like elves I vote we end hostilities.
Wood elves and Brettonian official treat is said not to exist in the Brettionian current army book...
I know about Morai-Heg and Loec. Khaine is worshipped by all elves... but in differening amounts do high elves sacrifice hundreds of slaves and members of there own family to Khaine every year? It can be argued that Asuryan has the most power withing the High elves...
On this note we are just trying to show the way the Pantheon is stacked or at least worshipped. Psychic_Llamas mentioned that fact somewhere along the conversation..
Yes and i want to avoid a flame war but i have still played elves (of all types at some stage) read their army books... and i do like the fluff of Warhammer more than the game itself and i read everything. But yes i do want to avoid a flame war lets leave the above comments as is. And flame wars mean I have to start typing in perfect grammatical English, which I loathe I speak perfect English but written English…
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
that was a rather long debate i agree with absolutely everything that Arathlan said about the elves. and i agree with what Masada said about 'Good and Evil'but, getting out of that discussion and a little back on track, i took into account you suggestions Masada and Arathlan. But im not sure if ive overpowered all of these. i feel i have, but just take a look and see what you think.
@ Olleus, can you tell me if any of the ideas in this are easy to do? there are a couple of new concepts i think.
Spoiler :
Oh and thanks for all the input you guys are giving us. its all bound to help. Thanks
So Psychic_Llamas you agree that elves are evil and that they are "rather cold and hauty. They are also quite volatile being 'quick to anger, and slow to forgive'." and everything thing else i pointed out elves to be
Twisting your meaning a bit but not far thanks Psychic_Llamas for the support!! ELVES ARE EVIL!!
had to have a last go...
@Psychic_Llamas the Old faiths in general
Could the high priest do "miracles" aka magic? all the preists in those cults do have minor powers like all priests
Old human faith i agree with all of it however i still want them to be split into east vs west but it doesnt really matter fundimentally they would be the same religion...
Asuryanism yeah i agree with stuff that the religion gives
Khaine drop the 10% science boost... how does sacrificing slaves give science and i think that is to good...
Dwarven Pantheon perfect as is suits there nature but abolish magic for dwarves and give them magic resitance or make them stronger...
Followers of Isha yay woodelves can spread there forests... *evil laugh* bring on guerilla promotios
The Old Ones priests should be slann for the last tier or for all of it... make them very expenisve but very very good Slann after all are the best mages in the world by a mile
Ormzad Pantheon great perfect
The Indic Pantheon perfect its fits them to tee
Twisting your meaning a bit but not far thanks Psychic_Llamas for the support!!
ELVES ARE EVIL!! had to have a last go...
@Psychic_Llamas the Old faiths in general
Could the high priest do "miracles" aka magic? all the preists in those cults do have minor powers like all priests
Old human faith i agree with all of it however i still want them to be split into east vs west
but it doesnt really matter fundimentally they would be the same religion... Asuryanism yeah i agree with stuff that the religion gives
Khaine drop the 10% science boost... how does sacrificing slaves give science
and i think that is to good...Dwarven Pantheon perfect as is
suits there nature but abolish magic for dwarves and give them magic resitance or make them stronger... Followers of Isha yay woodelves can spread there forests... *evil laugh* bring on guerilla promotios
The Old Ones priests should be slann for the last tier or for all of it... make them very expenisve but very very good
Slann after all are the best mages in the world by a mile Ormzad Pantheon great perfect
The Indic Pantheon perfect its fits them to tee
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
@ masada: ELVES ARE NOT EVIL!! *ehem*
@ Olleus: well, what i was thinking is this:
there are the 7 core religions:
-Old Faiths
-Young Gods
-Dark Children
-Chaos Cults
-Gods of Law
-Mortal Gods.
-Barbaric Gods
these all act EXACTLY the same way that normal religions work.
however, these core religions have no temples or priests allocated to them until the civ researches one of the techs that gives access to the many sub religions. i will use the Old Faiths religion as an example:
Ok, so i found the "Old Faiths" in my second city. simple. the old faiths, because its major religious characteristics are that it has a slower spread rate than the other religions, will spread slower (duh). this is pretty crappy until the civ researches one of the 8 techs which allow them to build temples and priests of a certain sub religion.
so next i research the tech which gives me access to "The Followers of isha" sub religion, which in turn allows me to build the Isha specific buildings
-Altar (Sacred Tree),
-Temple (Isha's Grove)
-Cathedral (Oaken Hall)
-Monument (The Tears of Isha),
and the isha specific Priests:
-Acolyte (Handmaiden of Isha),
-Priest (Priestess of Isha),
-High Priest (High Priestess of Quyl-Isha)
however, for the sub religion to be initiated, (ie before the civ can build any of the sub religion's temples or priests), they must first build the monument in a city with the Core Religion, in this case the Tears of Isha must be built in my second city as none of my others have the Old Faiths religion.
once the monument is built, altars can be built in all cities, which also give access to the acolyte, in this case my Handmaidens of Isha. i must build 3 altars before i can start building temples, which means i must expand my empire 1 more city and build an Altar in it. (temples can only be built in cities with an Altar already in them) then i can start building my Temples which allow me to build the Priests, in this case the Priestess of Isha. once i have 3 Temples i can do the same with Cathedrals, (which can also only be built in cities with a temple already in them.) which give access to the High Priests, or my High Priestess of Quyl-Isha.
the temples specific to the Followers of isha religion will have different effectes to those from the Dwarven Pantheon, or the Cult of Khaine. as you can see in my above post. the priests will also be different, with different abilities and magical capabilities, (but with the same base stats or movement and attack)
i was hoping that these sub religions will greatly diversify the religions capabilities, albiet it will make a heck of a lot more work for us. it seems sound to me, but there is just the issue of converting to a different sub religion. i haven't been able to come up with any decent ideas for that.
Did that make sense
@Masada: yeh, i was hoping that we could have a range of spells for priest specifically to use, a 'good' spell list for the 'good' religions, such as healing, and ressurecting, and turning undead. butthen another spell list for the 'evil' religions, such as death based, summon deamon/undead, and a heal spell. each level of priest could have different access to these spells, gaining greater access the higher up the priesthood they are. (some priests could also have a special access to other winds of magic, liket the Priests of Asuryan getting some fire magic too.)
North and south human sub religions go in the "Young Gods" core religion, not the "Old Faiths".
i was thinking Khaine gives those who he gets sacrifices from extra knowledge, giving them an instant +10 science (not percentage, just a one off +10). seems logical to me, do you still disagree?
perhaps we could give the dwarven Pantheon priests magic resistance instead of priest spells? 9that would mean no healing though... perhaps just give them some priest spells but also magic resistance?
Slann mage priests are going to be Lizardman specific and can only be built by Lizardmen. they are the Lizardman UU basically. these will just be a generic looking priest. (perhaps a skink like tehenuini?)
Cool, thanks for the feedback
@ Olleus: well, what i was thinking is this:
there are the 7 core religions:
-Old Faiths
-Young Gods
-Dark Children
-Chaos Cults
-Gods of Law
-Mortal Gods.
-Barbaric Gods
these all act EXACTLY the same way that normal religions work.
however, these core religions have no temples or priests allocated to them until the civ researches one of the techs that gives access to the many sub religions. i will use the Old Faiths religion as an example:
Ok, so i found the "Old Faiths" in my second city. simple. the old faiths, because its major religious characteristics are that it has a slower spread rate than the other religions, will spread slower (duh). this is pretty crappy until the civ researches one of the 8 techs which allow them to build temples and priests of a certain sub religion.
so next i research the tech which gives me access to "The Followers of isha" sub religion, which in turn allows me to build the Isha specific buildings
-Altar (Sacred Tree),
-Temple (Isha's Grove)
-Cathedral (Oaken Hall)
-Monument (The Tears of Isha),
and the isha specific Priests:
-Acolyte (Handmaiden of Isha),
-Priest (Priestess of Isha),
-High Priest (High Priestess of Quyl-Isha)
however, for the sub religion to be initiated, (ie before the civ can build any of the sub religion's temples or priests), they must first build the monument in a city with the Core Religion, in this case the Tears of Isha must be built in my second city as none of my others have the Old Faiths religion.
once the monument is built, altars can be built in all cities, which also give access to the acolyte, in this case my Handmaidens of Isha. i must build 3 altars before i can start building temples, which means i must expand my empire 1 more city and build an Altar in it. (temples can only be built in cities with an Altar already in them) then i can start building my Temples which allow me to build the Priests, in this case the Priestess of Isha. once i have 3 Temples i can do the same with Cathedrals, (which can also only be built in cities with a temple already in them.) which give access to the High Priests, or my High Priestess of Quyl-Isha.
the temples specific to the Followers of isha religion will have different effectes to those from the Dwarven Pantheon, or the Cult of Khaine. as you can see in my above post. the priests will also be different, with different abilities and magical capabilities, (but with the same base stats or movement and attack)
i was hoping that these sub religions will greatly diversify the religions capabilities, albiet it will make a heck of a lot more work for us. it seems sound to me, but there is just the issue of converting to a different sub religion. i haven't been able to come up with any decent ideas for that.
Did that make sense
@Masada: yeh, i was hoping that we could have a range of spells for priest specifically to use, a 'good' spell list for the 'good' religions, such as healing, and ressurecting, and turning undead. butthen another spell list for the 'evil' religions, such as death based, summon deamon/undead, and a heal spell. each level of priest could have different access to these spells, gaining greater access the higher up the priesthood they are. (some priests could also have a special access to other winds of magic, liket the Priests of Asuryan getting some fire magic too.)
North and south human sub religions go in the "Young Gods" core religion, not the "Old Faiths".
i was thinking Khaine gives those who he gets sacrifices from extra knowledge, giving them an instant +10 science (not percentage, just a one off +10). seems logical to me, do you still disagree?
perhaps we could give the dwarven Pantheon priests magic resistance instead of priest spells? 9that would mean no healing though... perhaps just give them some priest spells but also magic resistance?
Slann mage priests are going to be Lizardman specific and can only be built by Lizardmen. they are the Lizardman UU basically. these will just be a generic looking priest. (perhaps a skink like tehenuini?)
Cool, thanks for the feedback
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