Warhammer Fantasy Battles Mod Brainstorm Thread

Masada · Nov 21, 2006

@Psychic_Llamas

we know the real answer :lol:

oh and your relgion system is perfect

might require some ironing out but oh well...

yeah the coding will be nasty pretty bloody complex but i faith in the procedings

Converting to another sub religion would be easy... half of old relgions buildings die the effects are halved? massive civil unrest make the empire unplayable for a couple of turns... i have always thought that sorta upheaval was underplayed in vanilla civ...

end of anarchy period large amounts of new units appear from that sub religion of course if they have an inquistor option good bye all relics of the old faith

and maybe a percentage of the units in your empire?

New religions tend springing into be tend to be bloody affairs so its best to represent that weaken the player but also give them something in return for all that weakening might make large static games more interesting but thats my 2 bobs worth

@Psychic_Llamas sorry about that North South human comment wasnt thinking... ooppppssss

And lizardmen priests are there mages they are one and the same and slann mages should be UU for lizardmen... they are in the fluff utter gods (go back in the rules a bit and have a look at what they were capable of

) capable of whipping up cyclones if they feel so inclined etc... Frogs of death

Arexack_heretic · Nov 21, 2006

i was thinking Khaine gives those who he gets sacrifices from extra knowledge, giving them an instant +10 science (not percentage, just a one off +10). seems logical to me, do you still disagree?

I was thinking more a magic-currency bonus. (not included yet)

Either a single turn % bonus or a flat bonus.

Edit: on leader traits.
Maybe it would be better to have racial-traits, specific for orcs/gobbos/elves/dwarves/skaven/human (default) etc.
That way we need not clutter the leader specs of metaspecies and they'll still have space for traits such as aggression and Arcane etc.

Dwarven racial traits:
-stubborn :wil not forget any slight (might be better coded hidden in the diplomatic memory stats.... )
-magically inert. : 0% magicpoints generation multiplier, +2 general dispells/turn.
-tunnelling:
-units in cities count as being in a walled city. building a citywall increases defence (fortified entrances).
-specialised worker units can build tunnels, when mining is researched.
-long lived / superior constitution: +1 health in cities

Masada · Nov 22, 2006

@Arexack_heretic (is that Ploe? im lost and confused...) but yeah i agree Greenskins, Dwarves, Elves, Constructs (Khemeri, Lizardmen, Sylvania could also have a single racial thing? represents them being created... since they are not natural and dont learn in the normal sense) could split humans into Eastern and Western humans? but not that complex and not that many bonuses just a simple tweek...

@Lord Olleus im not speaking for Psychic_Llamas but yeah thats how i was thinking it would work... reasearch base religon and customize it by building altars for different sub cults (there should be consequences to having 2 different sub cults/religons in a city/empire... should make it desirable to use inquistors and religion... which i always felt was second fiddle to everything else

Masada · Nov 23, 2006

@Lord Olleus i agree that would be great

Would it be possible lets say if there were 2 base religions in the city to have an negative to happyness? giving an additional reason not to have multiple religions in a city...

I was also thinking that an event might be programmed into the religions... if 50% of your population does not worship your state religion/cult... then outright anarchy begins to take hold...

Im just trying to think of ways to make religion seem important... (dont hurt me... :lol:

)

Psychic_Llamas · Nov 23, 2006

Hey! dont give ploe all the credit!

jk, thanks olleus

yes, basically that sums up what i was trying to say pretty well.
the number of buildings and new units required to implement this tactic is the biggest drawback

oh well, at least well keep our Art monkeys happy

i was initially thinking of making the 'Monument' buildings act like Spiral Miniarets, and some, (like the Ind monument) could have additional benefits.

@ olleus: is it possible to add a new button and screen to the Religion advisor? perhaps make an identical screen to that of the 'base religions' which shows the 7 core religions, but then have another screen listing the sub religions avaliable to the civs current state religion. in this new screen we could have another button, same as the 'convert' button in the core religion screen, but which only changes the sub religion (perhaps instead of anarchy have 75% of the religious buildings from the old sub religion being destroyed, and the remining 25% loosing thier unique benefits (but keeping thier culture boost))

@ olleus: on a coding matter, is this method going to be relatively painless on your part? will it be a simple matter to get the AI to understand it? will the above new screen be possible?

@ Arexack: well, why do you think the racial trait shoud be 'invisible' ie not show in the leader selecting screen? i personally think it would be benefitial for the player to SEE what the racial traits benefits and drawbacks are. it would be frustrating to not understand why, for instance, Dwarves can use magic because it isnt shown as the racial trait. anywho, thats my oppinion

nice ideas for the dwarf trait though, ill put those in as a list of possible benifits.

@ masada: i think having opposing sub religions producing unhappyness is a briliant idea, im sure it should be possible.
oh, and why would we hurt you? your too valuable a source of ideas

Thanks for the feedback guys

EDIT: updated the post on religions on the first page of this thread.

Masada · Nov 23, 2006

@Psychic_Llamas i agree its all well and good to say it could run like this... but the big question is it feasible (praying for a yes)

@Psychic_Llamas im not even sure that just opposing sub religions producing unhappyness... all sub religions should do... if possible to a greater and lesser degree

@Psychic_Llamas there should be reasons to change sub faith and religion (apart from diplomatic reasons...) lets say if 50%+ of your population no longer worship your sub faith (something like (sub faith buildings/population pointsXsub faith buildings 2/population points>if greater than 50=CHAOS!!! not the religion silly

)

Just utter anarchy... forcing the player to either eradicate the other faith or to convert to the new faith and eradicate the old one... (all part of the reason why organized religion stopping non state spreads would= :cry:

) just to make religions worth something apart from UU's, building and traits...

and i cant rember the last time i ever used an inquisitor in a mod that had them.. just wasnt enough reason to make them then use them...

Some religions that sprung up quickly should spread really quickly at least at the start... of course empires falling apart for a few turns would be great as they decide if they wanna fight the new faith or convert...

And having UU's for that religion show up when you convert to it would be cool...and having a % of your old units leaving (normal units, the old faiths units having allready gone...) would be fun...

Might just be me but changes in religion tend to be a bit more bloody than changes in goverment..? if everyone just doesnt convert en masse...

And of course Warhammer is a gothic parody of the real world... the empire spent 3 quarters of her history fighting amongst itself.. Araby has spent most of its history killing itself... Estalia was a religous battleground for quite a while... etc to lazy to type atm

[Takes a bow] Im only a source of good ideas... i though i was more than that

Arexack_heretic · Nov 23, 2006

Not all sub-religions/cults need have the same buildings order
(eg shrine/altar>temple>cathedral>panthenon), although this is good for the core religions.
I'd suggest more flavourfull bonusses/penalties, special units and buildings for the subreligions.

For instance evil death/murder cults like f.i. the cult of Khaine could give the elven player
-access to assasins (powerfull unit against heros etc or maybe an opportunity to assassinate a great person of a civ in which an assasin has been installed.)
-some happyness/barraks type buildings, like fighting pits
in cities with the Khaine religion.

A drawback could be that these cults are outlawed under Imperial rule or somesuch powerfull civics.
And in that case cause unhappyness instead, without the bonusses.
Also an extension to this drawback could be a negative relations modifier from nations adhering a lawfull/imperial civic.

This would probably play havoc with the AI though.
Other cults may be more standard in their structure. Allowing the usual religious buildings-clade and a special religious unit. Flaggelants / Sigmarite Hammerers / witchhunter~Inquisitor,
some with specific sub-tech req or building req, besides the req religion.

Edit: a side thought.
I find myself ignoring the magic tree, because it is so damn expensive (non-functionallity not considered). Maybe we could enhance the magic-advancements by allowing great-magicians to be born. These would function like other greatpersons in tech advances. (a free tech or 750RP advancement in a arcane-tech)
Generation of great magicians is by a civspecific/racialtrait #(arcane)culturepoints further modified by special magical buildings/ResidentGreatMagicians/leadertraits/etc.

Psychic_Llamas · Nov 23, 2006

@masada: im not sure if we want to make religions such a defining factor in this mod, just something new and interesting, but not totally necessary. this means that perhaps having such huge penalties and chaos to converting sub religions isnt a good idea. i would rather stick to olleus's point of the Sub religions of each core religion coexisting peacefully unless specifically said not to (Eg perhaps the Khaine religion could produce unhappyness and -population growth (simulating the Priests of Khaine rampaging and sacrificing everyone) if Asuryan or Isha are present in the same city.

i think that the idea that sub religions coexisting toegether is a good idea. however, the player may end up exploiting this to get the best benefits of each sub religion. there needs to be some even middleground between masada's anarchy and olleus's coexistance.

@ olleus:
thats a fair point about having a sub state religion. i think your idea of having a new bar below the core religions in the religious advisor is a brilliant idea. and if you think it will work, the thats even better

Now, back to the details of the "Old Faiths" sub religions, is everyone happy with those at the moment? is it balanced? not too overpowered? any better ideas for names etc
if everyone's happy then we might as well move on to the next core religion

PS im not going to be avaliable for 12 days after today, so please, continue the discussions while im gone.

Masada · Nov 24, 2006

@Psychic_Llamas only allowing 1 sub religion buildings to be built in a city would be a good idea... (maybe that could be expanded to the whole empire?) and having other major religions in your city could inspire chaos/anarchy to erupt? Additionally having minor religions building from the non state faith could cause unhappyness in cities? (prompting people to only take so many cities off a nation because taking to much would make your empire a bit difficult to run... and it would make people utilize there religion for something else... other than diplomancy... so invasions would typically have inquistors and priests accompanying an invasion as well as the actual attacking units... to convert and overrun the nation... of course with inquisitors being having national limit 3... that would limit the amount of cities a player can take within reason...?)

Thats my middle ground... it slows down expansion and makes religion into something interesting, useful but still secondary to the rest of the game... wouldnt matter if you only take 3 enemy cities with the other cults in them... you could take the unhappyness 10 though... and outright anarchy...

@@Psychic_Llamas only allowing 1 sub religion buildings to be built in a city would be a good idea... (maybe that could be expanded to the whole empire?) and having other major religions in your city could inspire chaos/anarchy to erupt? Additionally having minor religions building from the non state faith could cause unhappyness in cities? (prompting people to only take so many cities off a nation because taking to much would make your empire a bit difficult to run... and it would make people utilize there religion for something else... other than diplomancy... so invasions would typically have inquistors and priests accompanying an invasion as well as the actual attacking units... to convert and overrun the nation... of course with inquisitors being having national limit 3... that would limit the amount of cities a player can take within reason...?)

Thats my middle ground... it slows down expansion and makes religion into something interesting, useful but still secondary to the rest of the game... wouldnt matter if you only take 3 enemy cities with the other cults in them... you could take the unhappyness 10 though... and outright anarchy...

@Psychic_Llamas the faiths wont be balanced till they get put through there paces but atm yeah im happy with them

PS Im the same as Psychic_Llamas might not be active for another 7 days

Arexack_heretic · Nov 24, 2006

I'm not too happy with limiting subreligion(SR) specific buildings.
Unless you mean by one SR building per city, that one should choose for one religion and then can only build buildings of that SR.

example:

Spoiler :

I would like to have building ladders for some constructive/technological/magical/militaristic subreligions.
Although it is not truly neccesary, I'd like to keep the option open.

Masada · Nov 24, 2006

@Arexack_heretic... umm ere read the posts... but i will clarify that point...

You can only be one subreligion... so yes in that sense you can only build a single type of buildings

We havent decided on the mechanics of what happens if you change sub religion do the buildings get destroyed? if having 2 buildings of a different sub religion gives unhappyness then they stay.. (till the player kills them) of course the specific bonuses would dissapear of be reduced severly...

Sub religions are not going to be religions as such... Core religions are the normal religions you see in vanilla civ (just the warhammer, old gods etc) the sub religions are discovered/founded when you research the tech you then can build the sub religions buildings

As well as i believe you can also build the core religions temples (?not sure)

But yes the sub religion stops you building other sub religions buildings unless you convert to that sub religion in which case the change renders all bonuses from the former sub religion void or drastically reduces them... and you end up with unhappyness if the 2 sub religions building are in the same city AND maybe if there is the other faiths sub religions building in a city without the statereligion it may stay the same apart from the lessening of the effect or it could create a heck of alot of unhappyness (religious minorities or people who havent converted to the new faith, seldom tend to be happy with the state of affairs)

@Arexack_heretic why is the simple question? all magic is derived from the 8 winds of magic.. or from the gods themselves (which derives from belief and the 8 winds of magic...) so giving a special magic tree makes no sense (and its would be way to complex) having UU's with special magical abilities (is still complex but not as complex as seperate magic tree) and it fufils the part nicely...

Technology and constructive is much the same... better to have UU's representing that.. name a few units that are the direct results of a religions technological achievements (there will be of course but they are to rare to bother with and are better represented by UU's for the civ..)

militaristic is difficult to do... but i think it is better represented by the minor religions powers and UU's... generally speaking the militaristic civs of the game would militaristic without the influence of religion (anyone dares say chaos wouldnt be and have a look at what there real world contemperies are modeled... huns, mongols etc tended to fight because they did... Orcs were created to fight Gork and Mork are the result of that they personafy the nature of Orcs it is the Orcs belief that creates and maintans them because Orcs were made like that....)

And the complexity would be mind boggling Core faith reliant tech would be all right? maybe but its better represented by the Core faith/Minor religion bonuses UU's and the civs UU's themselves...

Arexack_heretic · Nov 24, 2006

@Masada: racial traits.
Not really invisible, but rather a single trait for a collection of minor traits.
such as
-base agression level.
-magical ability.
-base research level (inginuity)
-tunneling/undergrounders.
-population growth.
etc
@Masada religions etc
Im rather confused now

Masada · Nov 29, 2006

Will be back soon... ish tommorow from my endevours...

post some suggestions for stuff for me to look at while Psychic_Llamas is away...

Masada · Dec 2, 2006

@Lord Olleus i cant believe i missed your post... (Hits self)

Do we really want to have a state sub religion?

Yes... Using your example of the Empire, Sigmar and Ulric dont get along never have, never will. Look at the history of the empire and its spent more in civil wars than whole... from 73 years after Sigmar (year of the founding of the Church of Sigmar) to 1124 (Madred Rat Catcher) the empire was riven by civil war between factions. With the emperors puppets of one faction or another and a lot of these wars were between the Ulricivite? East and the Sigmarite West... and to some extent the followers of Taal. Mandred the first real legitimate supported Emperor in almost a thousand years held the empire together for many years then when he died the empire split into 2 factions... the Ottilian Emperors of Tabecland followers of Taal and Electorate Emperors followers of Sigmar/Ulric who elected an emperor that split happened in the year 1360 (i doubt Mandred lived for 200 years.. but I would say the start of the split happened after his reign). That nice civil war happened to 1547 when the Count of Middenhiem declared himself Emperor in the name of Ulric... and that was called the time of 3 emperors... it was only in the year 2302 that Magnus of Nuln managed to pull the elector counts together and defeat chaos that the civil war stopped. On that note the electors did no want him as Emperor instead the people forced them to accept him.. Interrupting 1200 years of civil war. 2428 there was another brief period of civil war and then in that same year Wilhelm Prince of Altdorf deposed the old emperor and became emperor....

In total the time that the empire has been a whole nation... Sigmar Heldenhammer from the year 0-for 2 score and 10 years, Mandred Ratcatcher 1124-for many years, Magnus of Nuln 2304-for many years, 2429-2502 under the Princes of Altdorf... not a great deal longer than 200 years and the years since Sigmar founded the Empire have been 2502 and that was mostly due to religious dislike... between Taal, Sigmar and Ulric but mostly between Sigmar and Ulric

I don’t see having a state sub religion as stopping you build other sub state religions however there should be penalties for doing it (the strength of them I’m going to leave...)... coexistence in religions in warhammer greatly depends... they tend to have set regions where one god/whatever the hell is pre-eminent and another region where another is... its a live and let be policy

I agree building outside your state religion would be a bit silly...

@Lord Olleus ./drools at the coding genius

Note: That’s just an example but it tends to hold true for most civs in warhammer, Darkelves Slaneesh and Khaine etc

Please ignore the spelling, punctuation its so damm bad i know...

Masada · Dec 2, 2006

"One of Teclis' deeds was to find such low sorcerers and hedge wizards as existed in the empire" The empire had mages before the elves improved upon there skills

"Magnus asked Teclis to help him create an institution whereby wizards might be properly trained... But Teclis rlealised that the safety of the whole world... rested upon the men of the empire"

Will continue later (Empire army book)

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 5, 2006

well now, im back and it looks like a fair bits gone on.

lets see...
@ Masada: thats a rather interesting concept. i might have to mull over it a bit, but ill give my immediate feedback now:
i think that all of the sub religions under one core religion should be able to co-exists to an extent. this means that, for example, all of the elven sub religions, Isha, Asuryan and Khaine, shoud be able to be present in the same civ. however, to prevent the player from over using this to gain the benefits of all the sub relgions, once an altar is built in a city, no other altar from any other SR from that same core religion can be built until the first one and all the subsequent temples etc are inquisitioned. this way each city can only have 1 SR of each CR present. then if a civ has , say, 'the Old Faiths' as their state religion, and has the Followers of Isha's altar in a city, that same city cannot build any Khaine, Asuryan, Old Faith, Ind or Lizardman etc altars. however, if an opposing CR is spread to this city, and the player builds an altar from that religion in an attemp to gain the benefits of both SR, that city will suffer from a -1 happyness penalty, and the unique abilities of both SR will be lost untill one of the SR is inquisitioned.
I hope that made sense.

@ AH: i wasnt planning on having any buildings for the CR, so only SR have buildings and what not. i dont think there is any need for CR buildings too.
about removing unwanted SR, i was thinking along the lines of using the high priests as an inquisitor type unit which can eradicate all SR other than that priests SR.
I do nt understand your last point:

I would like to have building ladders for some constructive/technological/magical/militaristic subreligions.
Although it is not truly neccesary, I'd like to keep the option open.

@ Masada: i think you might have miss understood how Olleus has decided to do to incorporate this. we are no longer having any state sub religions, so that removes the need for changing Sub Religions as they are going to 'co-exist' within a CR.

I disagree that we need a state sub religion. all sub religions under the CR will be avaliable to the civs with that CR as their State religion.

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 5, 2006

Here is the beginings of the young gods details:

Spoiler :

Masada · Dec 5, 2006

@Psychic_Llamas i agree that sub religions under a core faith should be able to get along better than those not under the same core faith... however there still should be penalties for having multiple core and sub faiths in a state. I dont think that you should be only able to use a single sub religions buildings, however there should be penalties for doing that make it a bit of a gamble to do. It can have a good payoff, but it can have downsides...

Also shrines for faiths should not be able to be destroyed by simply having the player remove the building.. inquistors could have to first destroy the buildings of that faith before they could remove the religion. Inquistors should not be able to remove a religion unless there was allready the state etc faith in the city bit silly to remove a faith and not replace/substitute it at the same time.. having a city of people with no religion would be a bit bizzare...

@Psychic_Llamas having a state sub religion i agree isnt that useful but there should be penalties to convince the player of not having to many faiths in a city... empire wise i guess as long as the city doesnt have 2 faiths there wouldnt be any penalties but there probably needs to be penalties...

Persecution penalty for every -1 unhappiness in the empire caused by religous problems get that value divide it by the amount of cities and give an additional -1 unhappiness to every city in the empire for every whole number rounded down? something like that it represents the problems caused by multiple religions in an empire...

Masada · Dec 5, 2006

Young Gods suggestions...

Norse Pantheon
The Norse in the real world did not have a set form of worship of an organized central church as such... they worshipped at sacred groves and standing stones and a few sites... it is/was similar to the celtic faith with druids but there priests standing was more informal and less heriditary

Altar=Horgr (a simple altar of standing stones)
Temple= Sacred Grove (a grove of sacred trees)
Cathedral= been suggested by a danish mate of mine that a Longhouse would be the closest to a Cathedral...
Monunument= Valhalla which is the home of odin but heroes have a place there but it is linked to sites in the real world

Will continue in a bit...

Masada · Dec 6, 2006

Northen Gods (im not quite sure but could this be based on the germanic pagan tradition?)

Southern Gods (while this could be based on the celtic pagan tradition)

Since the infomation for this is non existant it might be wise to hold to the real world infomation that exists and incoperate the small amount of warhammer canon into the piece?

Old World Pantheon

Altar= Altar of the gods? (shorter better

)
Temple= Temples of the gods/Temple complex/Street of temples etc
Cathedral=Greater temples of the gods/Greater Temple Complex/Temple District (would be what im leaning towards..)
Monument=Realm of the gods/Home of the gods/Seat of the gods etc

Acolyte=Acolyte of the gods/Servant of the gods etc
Priest=Intiate of the gods/Priest of the gods/defender of the gods etc
High Priest=High Priest of the gods/Servant of the many/Servant of the myriad etc

Oh and could we change Inquistion rule to something nicer like forced conversition... sad to say Church sanctioned Inquistions never really killed alot of people in history blame the civil authorities for that... and Inquistions refer to a single faiths way of doing it...

Oh and lots of faiths have done that sort of stuff its sorta routine in history.. lets not take our present centaury as the rule but the exception

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