Warhammer Fantasy Battles Mod Brainstorm Thread

Arexack_heretic · Dec 9, 2006

Ah good! I love to see such dilligence!

I like the things you posted so far.

I've included the CR in the Religions.xml and given most CR+SR both a place in the tech tree.

I'd like to see the rest of the SR's so I can incorporate them.

As soon as we got a final draft, of all the religions and some basic L1 spells, we can game play them in a beta 'e'.

I mentioned it earlier, but you got Omzad Pantheon as OldFaith and Law both.
I don´t know where to put it in either case.

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 9, 2006

I just looked at your tech tree. its very good, and i left my suggestions in the other thread. if you look at the 3rd or 4th post of this thread, you will see a list of the current ideas for CR and SR, its got the details of the ones were sure about.

About Ormzad, he hasnt changed in either CR, its the same. just pop him in at Elementalism.

Im just waiting for everyone to give the word go to finish up on the Young Gods and make a proper start on the rest.

@everyone that hasnt written anything here yet: PLEASE PUT YOU OPPINION DOWN! id really like to get the publics pov, this has turned into an unnoficial private forum

come on people, get typing

Masada · Dec 9, 2006

@AH All magic is derived from the chaos gates.. i never said it was evil i just said it is chaotic in nature.. chaos isnt evil as such it is chaos something created to do something isnt evil its the user... guns are a good example people use guns guns do not use people...

But all magic is derived from chaos... and yes all magic is evil or corrupt at least to start with, magic users have to purify it or die... (but i agree with Psychic_Llamas lets not dwell into that to much... magic is from chaos end point

)

@AH tech charts are not my great interest... but i do like Lord_Ollues idea about having minor upgrades when a tech is discovered for units scaling there effectivness over time

(but the tech tree needs to be simplified... its way to complex and time consuming...)

@I just think it would funny... anyway you could use that as a control on where Chaos, Norse etc cities are placed by the comp... -1 food in terrain that isnt that great... Norse snow etc would limit the feasible amounts of cities placed..

Otherwise yeah... people start posting plz... u have Psychich_Llamas pleading and thats just sad

Masada · Dec 9, 2006

Tech related idea... would it be possible to limit the amount of different magic techs... (the types of magic) for civs?

If so would it be possible when u discover tech X to get a choice to select what magic u want up to the number available for your civ? and from a selection of magic you are allowed? cause apart from a lack of functionability the magic tech tree is massive... to big....

Arexack_heretic · Dec 9, 2006

I agree ... to a point.

I didn't think it possible to have a decision tree as well built into the tech tree....
That would quite simplify the choices a civ would have to take.
We'd be able to put in allignment choices.

Anyway aside from that, the magic tree i came up with is not that massive.
It just looks that way.

It has the primary High-magic trunk, which has roots in elven-magic and by a long detour the human magics.
Then there is a mystical/magic branch, which also includes the darker magics.
And a less mystical drawven enchanting branch.

Many of the entries are just increases in powerlevel of spells.
Many are needed to root the religions.

That reminds me: where does monotheism go?

edit: tree. It has been modified by a small amount already.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143991&d=1165688812

Masada · Dec 9, 2006

Well apart from not being able to look at it i dont see any problems...

By decision i mean when you reasearch the tech you pop an event.. or create a building that allows you to reasearch techs from a part of the tree... and limit those reasearcable techs to magic techs..?

Probably best for eveyone is you have me as an instant messanger contact...

Arexack_heretic · Dec 9, 2006

Of course some magics will become outdated as higher complexity is attained.

For instance hedge magic will contain some simple spells that will be availabe to hedge wizards. Invention of Elementalism maybe will negate some of those spells or just the building of hedgewizards. Similarily once humanity has investigated Elementalism to its fullest potential, Highmagic can be researched.
It is really not that complex...just compare it to the current 'd' tree.
(the in-game views show only a small number of the links)

If you got Gmail, we'd be able to chat... I don't like to install thos other messenger services.

Masada · Dec 10, 2006

I don’t trust Google... something to do with there storing of cookies for 77 years? And I can’t bring my self to trust a company with a motto like "do no evil..." or a company that cooperates with a police state (China.. Even though it’s a great country with great people it is still a communist state...) and assist that state in locking up "political dissidents" who raise valid concerns about there country and the manner in which it is governed...

Don’t get me wrong.. I don’t support Formosa (Taiwan) which was ruled by an incompetent military dictatorship that didn’t have the good grace to accept defeat and spend much of its time trying to escalate its conflict with China into a full scale war.. Not that China wasn’t gunning for the same thing.. And I most certainly do not support a government that oppresses the native inhabitants of said island..

And im not a bigot.. Or any thing else I might be accused of...

I still use Google but then who doesn’t..? Which might be the problem...?

That’s my off topic rant for the moment...

@AH im pretty sure at least in canon terms that Elementalism is just an offshoot of the normal magic... Elementalism uses the winds of magic and im pretty sure you can only use them one way... but im going to leave that alone.. To lazy atm to go through all the stuff i have...

New Thought...

On the nature of Good and Evil

Good and evil are constructs of the human mind; they are decided by a mix of factors which are often having cultural or religious links. The concept of good and evil is different from person to person. People of a similar creed for example may view good and evil in a similar light with similar situation and choices evaluated in a similar way. However conflict with the concept and view of good and evil can vary to a huge degree. Polygamy for instance which is looked down upon in the Christian world and the West and may be seen as evil or wrong etc with the view differing from person to person... But in some places, cultures and religious polygamy is looked well upon. Very view people view there own actions as evil and may only do so when they pass beyond the pale. Even so these actions may be viewed as necessary, for the greater good etc.. And they may well be... but while that view may be acceptable to others it may be wholly unacceptable to others...

Good and evil are relative!

The same can be applied to the Warhammer world... Chaos for instance is unusual it is actually accepted as evil by those high up in the high racy.. But that doesn’t mean is it evil those are the views of some. Archoan lord of the end of times in White Dwarf accepts some of his more distasteful acts as evil he however goes on to explain that according to his logic they are necessary.. In the black library books he tends to be shown in a very black and white way which I don’t think holds quite as true. Those in the lower ranks of the hordes of Chaos view there actions as good.. Ordained by the gods and there actions as necessary..

However can Chaos really be evil? Is plague evil? Not really it does what its meant to do.. It survives by the deaths of others.. Humans really cant take the moral high ground here.. *Vegans look at Masada* *Masada looks at Vegans points at Canine teeth and wonders why we evolved or were created with those...* Change in excess may not be good... but then everything in excess may not be good. Blood is just blood it isn’t like he’s the Elven God of Murder *Masada looks at the elves of the world and wonders why people think they are all high and mighty takes a special people to create a god like that

* And pleasure well is that bad?...

Chaos cant be evil.. How can something that was created like that be evil? Something that occasionally stings at the world when the warring factions decide to go to war together. Are bumble bees evil when they sting you?

If we asked a member of the golden horde what army he would play in Warhammer and what best fits with his view of the world... what’s the bet he would go Chaos... Chaos you ask, yeah chaos those guys aren’t weak like the rest of them they have class and style.. What I don’t understand is why they haven’t taken over the weaklings in the south i mean with a Khan sorry Warlord like that... i just dont understand it... the guys in GW must be Empire players (which is good for the Warhammer world

) those guys are HAXXING!!! sif they would...

Good and evil are relative.. To all sorts of things keep and open mind.. :lol:

Now that might blow some brains up with angry recriminations about how the western sense of good and evil is always right.. don’t worry I have already been shouted down by a crowd of people (my peers) when I did a speech similar to this... closed minds and ignorance sometimes go hand in hand or is that just me but then I don’t blame them if everyone thought like this the world would be really interesting...

Oh and i cant for the life of me get into that tech tree

Masada, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

its annoying...

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 10, 2006

@ AH and Masada: masada cant access that tech diagram because hes not a member of the private forum, and AH posted it in there

@masada: are you a philosopher in your spare time? :confused:

theres some very... interesting... concepts in there.

i agree that good and evil are relative concepts, and there should be no representation of good or evil in the mod because WH is kind of a dark fantasy game (like FfH) where even the 'goodies' are are a tad evil.

we could argue about this for centuries and still not get anywhere though, so perhaps we could try complete these SR details so we can get onto balancing?

Ps, my MSN name is "Psychic_Llamas" (inventive hey?) but i dont use it very often.

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 10, 2006

i just had an intersting thought and wanted to post it here to see what you guys thought:

if every now and again, SR buildings can spawn barbarian acolytes etc of their SRs (which dont attack) but only move to different cities and spread their religions, or inqisition others. that would make the SR a little out of the players control and add an element of chance like with the CRs.
just a thought.

Masada · Dec 10, 2006

@Psychic_Llamas i am a philosopher in my spare time as welll as a theologist and i do amuse myself with a couple of other things

I do agree Chaos is evil well we perceive it to be evil, others may have viewed it differently. Warhammer is gothic fantasy, look at the new artwork for the empire complete with all the ravens skulls, fallen angels, flagellants and religious accoutrement...

PURE GENUIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That would make it even more random which is great religions in civ4 are a bit flat there is no real dynamic feel to them... what an idea

Religions are seldom tidy little affairs there are differernt factions, sub groups etc that often act against the authority of a central church and in many faiths there isnt really a strong unified centralised church anyway.. independant temples may do things differently that adds a bit of random chance into the equation

Chaos would be the perfect candidate for this hidden units that convert parts of your cities... and maybe institute a cult religion just for converting non chaos states. Like the cult of a dragon for instance.. except when you the Chaos player declares war on that state all units with the mark of chaos flip to your side and maybe make it a 10%-50% chance of a hidden mark of chaos being on your unit if there was a chaos cult in the city.. chaos is insidious in the way that it spreads (mind you warhammer isnt as bad as 40k any time chaos is involved in something, something like 50% of all Imperial units are corrupted...) in the recent storm of chaos quite a few units of the empire flipped and joined the enemy and a number of the chaos leaders were former citizens of the empire and other nations of the old world...

Oh and i dabble in politics alot as well... goverments are complex edifaces riven with discord and are fairly interesting

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 10, 2006

so ive been arguing with a Philosopher / Theologist / Politician about Religion?? good lord! *faints*

Its really just a random idea, and i tihink it could work. we may have to wait for Olleus to say if its possible, or worth while though

We could put a special ability in the Chaos Civ like that you described, it would encourage them to go as Chaos Religions. could be very intersting...

:lol:

politician playing Civ :lol:

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 10, 2006

Now, drawing attention back to the SR development, Is everyone happy with this:

Spoiler :

Masada · Dec 10, 2006

and im a fairly good student of history with a great love of military history :lol:

Yeah im happy with that

and personally i like Lord_Olleus idea for his mod about having mini upgrades from different techs

but that might just be me...

The Norse aninimal sacrifice idea? which way is that going to go?

Now im going to brainstorm some special traits for civs i dont like the idea of racial traits there a bit to hard to pin down... Chaos dwarves are nothing like Dwarves insofar as racially really Chaos dwarves are no longer part of the same speciese as Dwarves large scale exposure to warpstone clouds tends to do that to a race... are Brettonians really human? there peasants look really greenskin like downright ugly critters etc

Araby: Araby uses huge amounts of magic to be able to survive in there desert home... so something like desert sqaures yield +1 food and Araby units get +25% extra defense and attack on desert squares? hhi

Bretonnia: Something involving crusades.. actually just a call to arms for the Bretonnian armies normally there is only a small standing army defending Bretonnia the rest of the army is dotted around the country in small groups split between various lords and dukes... calling something like that together would take ages, in reality it used to take ages to call together a medieval army anyway... so something to allow a Bretonnia player to call together a large army or at least assemble one over time... so either a power to draft Knights every X turns from cities or a wonder that constructs new knights every X turns (with no upkeep?) and perhaps a castle type tile improvement cuts the amount of food available.. castles take up a fair amount of room increases shield production and increases defense.. just an improved version of the current fort in vannila civ which is next to useless... (there is a alot of commerce and industry generated by building a military base..)

Cathay: Well Cathay has a massive army simple, they need one Cathay is the size of the Old World and constantly fights with the various goblinoid empires and other darker things combine that with a massive population of rural peasants and that allows a massive army to be drawn together in times of need (they treat it like a type of defered tax) draft effect X3 along with a high upkeep (it costs alot to equip and feed such a large host even if you dont pay them...

The Empire: Is not a single country it is an empire composed of various independant nations who have 90% of there history killing each other.. the main difficulty to an invader is the Electors prefer to fight each other and throughout there history have only really come together because of 2 things an external enemy or a very rare strong emperor.. otherwise the empire spends most of its time fighting each other. But when the emperor makes a call to arms the state militaries have to respond. The Empires state militaries are standing armies unto themselves the Electors have to maintan a set number of units specified by the emperor. So for the empire maybe a lower unit support cost, or say 3 free units per city something like that

Estalia: Um ere thinking of Spain... ships?... mercanaries?... terico spearmen?...

Ind: Free units for each temple? more culture (this is a mod about war...) ere uummm ere

Kislev:The Pulk and Rota system which is the kislevite way of calling together there armies in the face of chaos mass draft of units that have no upkeep but are tied to national borders or have some other sort of cap?

Nippon: Maybe ban peasants and other things from there selection and substiute it by giving them more expensive but very good units?...

Norsca: More money from pillaging and all there units have chance of enslaving..

Tilea: Great militia units but no heavy knights etc..?

Chaos: Lower upkeep cost and chance to enslave units

Darkelves: Enslaving and maybe commando and the ability to heal quicker in enemy territory.. Darkelves are cunning people...

Dwarfs: Extra defenses in cities and maybe +25% extra on the defense for all dwarf units?

Orcs: WAAAGGGGG upkeep what upkeep? there Orcs they dont need much to keep going.. they are scary even when unarmed.. and only need a hunk of slag iron to do damage...

Highelves: .... not even going to bother.. wouldnt be able to control myself..

Tombkings: Umm there dead immune to phycology? aand the ability to raise new units when they kill yours..

Lizardmen: Sacred Spawnings... build buildings that build units... you dont create units the building does.. maybe not skinks who breed i think and units are born with XP cause Lizardmen are born/created knowing how to kill..

Sylvanians: was just a province of the empire... and in a scenario should appear a V day (vampire day if you will) skeletons and other undead units create new units of skeletons when they kill stuff..

Woodelves: Tree Singing they can create woods with mages... and they have Guerilla 1 and 2? or some such... i can just see it the woodelf player creating forests all over the world and overunning everything.. with trees *shudders*

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 11, 2006

Ok, well if AH or anyone else has no objections, im going to move on to the Dark Children SR now.

there are several things in there, but a lotof empty spaces, so please give us feedback if you have any ideas

Spoiler :

Arexack_heretic · Dec 11, 2006

The Chaos gods are evil because they are utterly selfish.

Spoiler :

enough!

@ P_L : yes please, I'm itching.

One suggestion: undead units cannot be free of upkeep. They must cost magic-points or require a nearby controller (which has upkeep).
(In danger of getting too complex: perhaps a maximum number of units per controller?)
Oo! put them inside a caster as cargo!

if they are left alone, without controller for a whole turn, they crumble.

Another promotion for norsca this time: (or Northern Pantheon) Werewulfen promotion for berserkers. or by priest.

Masada · Dec 11, 2006

Sad to say this but chaos is the product of human thoughts and emotions... the gods are like that because humans want them to be like that...

All humans are selfiish by nature, humans sometimes rise above that nature but most of the time we dont... we just we have but if look at our actions can we really say we did it without and selfishness...

@Psychic_Llamas dont worry were here to fill in the blanks..

Masada's thoughts on those recently dead and what a good peasant should do if his liege lord is a bit pale and doesnt like the light

And Masada's thoughts on Nagash that most horrible of liches and those who may worship him or just act like him

Heres where it gets tricky.. by veneration of nagash i just mean a set of values that the sentiment undead, so those undead that think hold. Quite often a superiority complex, arrogance, a refined sense of honour, elitism, general dislocation from the world and in some cases paranoia about death that verges on cowardice...

Religion... well really no... i dont think there is...

Heres the choice we can have it as a religion proper or we can go more my way in which the follower mirrors Nagash because of his/her condition... undeath in this case..

Im going to leave this open... we could treat it as a semi religion which can spread, vampires have a number of ways influencing areas... turning you local noblemen into a vampire may raise some eyebrows but hes still your lord...

Sylvania is like that we those still living in the province considering Manfred Von Carstien as there Elector and Count. Slightly screwed i know but he is still there rightful lord even if he is no longer alive. He still does his duty protecting the peasants in Sylvania are meant to be the worst bunch in the whole of the Empire. The taxes i would imagine would be collected in other ways, Manfred doesnt really need money. And this is where it gets really bizzare Sylvanian peasants still serve in Manfreds army alongside the undead. I dont know though its a choice between paying taxes (which are high for peasants) or occasionally having a daughter/son go missing for a bit and come back in the morning with a sore neck and looking a bit faint (and with only one Von Carstien that would very very rare...) and having the graves of you loved ones messed around every now and then. But then the Von Carstiens tend to raise most of there minions from there dead enemies...

So its a choice between taxes and funny stuff... i would choose the funny stuff...

Masada's thoughts on that most Skaveny of gods the Horned Rat

The Horned rat is the embodiment of all the great skaven values, deceit, spitefulness, backstabbing, disease and corruption (why family and cannabilism isnt in this is beyond me). So with that in mind we can safely assume his temples will represent one of these four values well five but were going to have to cull one or roll it into another...

Great Belfry: Deciet when built allows some units of skaven to have the hidden ability? or failing that allows a special skaven scout/attack rat/weak whatever the hell to be created with the hidden rule... Skaven are masters of deciet.. and of stupidity... they are just giant rats you cant expect much more from them...

Bell Temple: Spitefulness well what about poison? thats a skaveny thing units created in a city with the Bell Temple have a small chance of an instant kill of units they attack? or maybe just a poison rat something that gets a bonus to attack cities and negates defensive bonuses.. Skaven are sneaky rats who tend to attack around or through defensive obstablces... or they can just go under the walls... but they are still just Giant rats...

Chapel of the 13 Bells: Backstabbing is just Skaven incarnate so what about a sneaky rat? they ignore defensive bonuses since they are rats and can just pop out of everywhere... they are still only giant rats all we need is giant cats...

The Temple of the Horned Rat:disease and corruption are so skavenish that its scary... skaven cities are now resistant to effects caused by Flood plains, swamps and jungles... all skaven get a bonus to attacking and defending the above...

On the blood cult...

*Blink blink* wha? is that?

Out of ideas tonight...

Arexack_heretic · Dec 11, 2006

booo! *snick, snick*
Skaven are more than just rats.

I think skaven temple effects should be restricted to very unpredictable efforts.
Not for things such as sneakiness and poison....That is what the techs 'stealth' and 'assasination' are for.
Bolstering the skaven morale would be a nice benefit for defence of the lair and enabling the building of Doombells would be good for the offensive.

Clan Eshin takes care of sneakishness and stealth.
Clan Pestilens are experts of plague spreading etc. (pestilence comes in late in the middleages)
Grey Seer wizards are the epitome of deceitfullness.
Clan Skryre would be able to produce the deadly warpstone machines of war skaven are feared for. These can then be added to unis as 'supportteam' specialcargo. Some early ones (poisonwind-globadiers) have a chance of decimating enemy as well as the hosting unit.

eh... :blush:

Masada · Dec 11, 2006

All the clans just embody a part of the Horned rat... the 4 main clans are religious institutions... the warlord clans are the laymen of the Skaven

Skaven are weaker than other races, physically speaking even goblins are stronger.. warlords take care of the moral and temples of the Horned Rat making them braver... the Horned Rat is skaven incarnate... so that would be laughable... :lol:

and Skaven are giant mutated rats... cunning yes brave no, smart sorta idiotic yes..

And those values are the values Skaven look to... those are the key points of the Horned rat

And since skaven are skaven i think that attacking cities, defensive positions and terrain without penalties is great, its a nightmare in this mod as is to attack a defended position.. and really skaven cant get Knights or anything heavy to deal with it... and there soldiers should be weak as hell cheap but weak.. skaven need lots of siege weapons to do anything and yeah they should blow up all the time they are skaven...

A fully ranked unit of knights in full plate with a shield, lance and hand weapon is a skaven generals worst nightmare as is... and Skaven have one of the few armies as an empire player that i charge at... my normal tactic is to hold with infantry units and counter charge with detachments to negate there rank bonus and hopefully break them... with what may well be a +5-10 modifier.. and yes i have broken alot of things with that... and Knighs for counter attacking... the artillery is there to knock there artillery out and any targets i deem must die... but with Skaven i actually move and do stuff.. because a swordsmen will kill most skaven 33% of the time i worked it out to be or around that mark...

@AH keep it simple... all the major clans of the Skaven have been around for ages and yes Pestilens has spread some plauges... but like most Skaven things they are not very effective.. or just dont work... normal plauges seem to do more... and spread normally

Psychic_Llamas · Dec 11, 2006

@ AH: thats and interesting idea, using a 'controller' maybe something like a... Bone Spire, or Necromancer's Tower, or Tower of necromancy...maybe can be built as a tile inmrovement to expant the range and also as a city improvement. i like it, probably quite possible too.

not sure about making them 'cargo'.

Why werewolves? is there any fluff saying norsca has werewolves?

@masada: i agree about the nagash stuff, but im leaning toward making Nagash more necromancy oriented, and Blood Cult more Vampirism oriented. (see spoiler for details)

about skaven, i thinkid rather make temples etc have effects that have something to do with the religion and architecture, rather than the race that they represent. (see spoiler again

)

I know AH will have a lot to say about the Skaven, and i look forward to his opinion

So, heres an altered list: i changed the nagash undead units to having upkeep, but also having the 'bound' promotion (explained spoiler) i also tried out something for the Blood Cult and Skaven. not too sure what to do about Gods of the Dark Forge though... Hmmmm...

Spoiler :

EDIT: i agree with AH here masada

Warhammer Fantasy Battles Mod Brainstorm Thread

Emperor

Wizard in the Making

Koi-san!

Koi-san!

Emperor

Koi-san!

Emperor

Koi-san!

Wizard in the Making

Wizard in the Making

Koi-san!

Wizard in the Making

Wizard in the Making

Koi-san!

Wizard in the Making

Emperor

Koi-san!

Emperor

Koi-san!

Wizard in the Making

Similar threads