Warhammer Fantasy Mod 2.1

[Stormrage]

If you say that once more I'll rip your head off and crap down the hole. The vikings did not have horns on their helmets.
Personally I'd rather just remove the whole silly Amazon civ, but that's just me

Um...then who did? Or is it all made up? Sorry bout that, didn`t know it would piss you off

Minotaurs used to be the Chaos second defender. I think that the Bestigor should be upped to 6/6/1, this is how the Minotaur used to be, and it's silly if it's not as offensive...
I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but we could make the Fleshhound the second Chaos defender if we want. This keeps the Bestigor offensive, and seems to fit at least some of what I've read about them. (Immune against non-magical weapons, according to the Deamonslayer novel.)

Hey, I had that same idea for Bestigors (my second version, after you said they need to be defensive), how come you didn`t agree? Well, dogs are like guards I suppose... Actually, I kind of like it˛- Barney, we are off to kill a bunch of people, now you be a good puppy, and guard the house.
And also, as someone already said, the flesh hound is cool, but useless..

BTW, I'd like to see utah's chin spearman (which Stormrage want for the Ungols for some strange reason) as cathayan 2nd defender. It fits better than the footman.

The strange reason was that the current ungol soldier sucks more than the cathayan footman... Why dont you like Kinboats Hun? He would be great for defense, he has that big ol` Naginata type weapon, its rather long, not as a pike but still, and a bow for support...But I like your idea about the unit going to cathay, it does make more sense, but i didn`t think of it cause i was too eager to remove the ungol soldier

How about letting the Domani replace the Italian as the Man-at-arms, and letting the Italian replace the current Infantry? They look almost exactly the same, but the Italian has better quality.

The infantry gfx used by Westerland and the others? The AoK(E) conversion? Thats a great idea!

@aaglo: About that Harad Swordsman, you didn't add it to the units32, right? Should be done

Are you seriously going to give him to Ind??? Noooo

I have converted an image of a GW Salamander miniature. The recent one looks more like a Stegadon but I though this as an alternative.

Could you post an animated preview? Wanna see how he looks ingame...
Also, could we use them both? Like that dragon-great dragon thing? OR i completley misunderstood, and you made only Civilopedia art?

What about the Arqebusier (post #465), people? You don`t like him?

Hey, about the africans... Queen of Lahmia became a vampire while they were still around, or does she just look really tanned? I asked about them mostly cause of that Nubian Archer that comes with the rest of Egypts units. I really like him.

 

[folketsfiende]

@mrtn:
Please mrtn, there really is no reason to get upset with Stormrage. The remark he made concerned the Norse people in the WH-world. For all I know those guys could be wearing helmets with horns although the Vikings of the real world didn't (actually some of them might have done that, but assuredly most of them didn't).

Edit: Sorry, I must've misread the messages. But I still think mrtn's use of words was a bit harsh, anger justified or not. This is getting a bit OT, so I'll just leave it.

 

[Stormrage]

Oh, no, the remark was made concerned real vikings. And the truth sucks, horned helmets are cool
So, he can get upset, I don`t mind, sometimes i get upset about common misconceptions about my people... Like: "But arent`t you muslim?" - And the only ones more catholic than us (well, generaly speaking) are the dudes over in Vatican!

Albion uses giants, right? How bout making aaglo`s Stone Giant an artilery unit for them? Those things he throws are not pebbles

And what do you, the mod makers, think of adding the centaurs to Dolgans? Gomurr said they are allies, and they really could use an extra unit...

I`m withdrawing the Shadow-Invisible wolf howling swordsman suggestion for a Dolgan assassin, it just doesn`t sound right, no refference on them in WH.... But what about that Iroqui archer? He could get thrown in, he looks barbaric enough. Like the Tracker, but with a wolf pelt instead.

 

[aaglo]

@mrtn
are you talking about the test patch I sent you? I think I added the updated unit32-file in there...

Hey, I had that same idea for Bestigors (my second version, after you said they need to be defensive), how come you didn`t agree? Well, dogs are like guards I suppose... Actually, I kind of like it˛- Barney, we are off to kill a bunch of people, now you be a good puppy, and guard the house.
And also, as someone already said, the flesh hound is cool, but useless..

What I understood from mrtn's post, he only recently read something about bestigors.
About fleshounds being defenders... while the idea is cool, using fast-moving hellhounds as defenders is a bit strange - I imagine them more as a fast offensive choise...

The infantry gfx used by Westerland and the others? The AoK(E) conversion? Thats a great idea!

If we can get rid of AoK-conversions, it's always a good thing

Are you seriously going to give him to Ind??? Noooo

You are joking, right? Of course he goes for ind. It's perfect for them (to replace the siamese infantry).

Could you post an animated preview? Wanna see how he looks ingame...
Also, could we use them both? Like that dragon-great dragon thing? OR i completley misunderstood, and you made only Civilopedia art?

Frosty made only the civilopedia art. But I think that's we'll follow the path laid down by embryodead, and use no artwork made by games workshop / citadel. So according to that, we won't be using those pedia pics.

What about the Arqebusier (post #465), people? You don`t like him?

I don't like him.

Hey, about the africans... Queen of Lahmia became a vampire while they were still around, or does she just look really tanned? I asked about them mostly cause of that Nubian Archer that comes with the rest of Egypts units. I really like him.

Hmmm... the lahmians don't have access to that nubian archer? Do they have archer at all? I'll check this issue tonight...

@folketsfiende,
In warhammer, there are also many other civs associated with horns: chaos, dwarfs, chaos dwarfs, orcs, goblins, dark elves...
BTW, I don't understand why some people don't like the amazon civ in WH. IMO they certainly have a right to be in, because they're so unique society led by women

 

[Stormrage]

So slow down the hounds? Dogs can run fast, but they`re more like sprinters, right? I` mean, runing 3-4 map tiles at once is a big distance in real scale..

Ok, I`ll repeat it again... The gfx you use for the arab and inds swordsman is called a Medieval indian sworsman! Medieval, m`kay? Like, Dark ages? Second age in WH, when the infantry appears?
And the Haradrim looks awfull arabic! So, for Ind, the siamese swordsman and the Medieval indian swordsman switch places, and for Araby the Haradrim replaces the Medieval indian swordsman gfx, so you don`t get the same unit being the swordsman for Arabia, and infantry for Ind. Now, please tell me how does this not make sense?

I think Lahmia and Khemri use the Nekharan archer. The "white" egyptian archer gfx.

Also, the Amazon civ is cool cause those Amazon Berserker chicks have big... axes

 

[Gomurr]

The Amazons don't deserve to be in because they aren't a force in the Warhammer world. Their significance amounts to that of Barbarians - every so often, explored disappear and the Amazons are rumored to be the culprits. They don't have a civilization in the sense that any of Elves, Dwarves, or Humans do. Even the barbaric tribes of Greenskins and the northern people like the Kurgan (of which the Dolgans are just a part) and the Hung (of which the Ungols are a tribe) have cover large areas of the world and are a force to be reckoned with when they go to war. They influence other civilizations by being a threat and curtailing expansion, not to mention preventing almost all concact between places like Cathay and the Empire. The Amazons do none of this. Like I said above, they were creating a barrier beween the Dark Elves and the Lizardmen, which is not existant in the WH world. While they may be unique and interesting to some, they do not merit a civilization of their own, especially when large empires like the Hobgoblin Hegemony and influencial lands like the Border Princes go unrepresented in the general mod.

Now please tell me how this does not make sense?

While I happen to agree with your suggestion, I do not agree with the manner in which you present it. You have an opinion. No one is obliged to follow it, and if they do not, while you are welcome to disagree, you are out of line in behaving as if people are incompetent for not doing as you suggest. People produce mods for their own enjoyment and graciously share them with us; some are even willing to allow for suggestions and constructive criticism. But that is entirely dependent on mutual civility and respect. Be polite.

 

[Stormrage]

Oh, I was just bolding that stuff cause when i first started posting, they didn`t read carefully, and were replying to things I wasn`t even talking about... And I wasn`t being sarcastic or anything when i asked (please) them to explain how come that doesn`t make sense... You know if they (please) explain it, I`ll understand it and maybe even like it. Like when you explained in detail why the Norse should really get the werebears, see, i was all good and ready to give them to Dolgans, but you made me change my mind.

Sorry if anyone got offended.

Oh, and about the amazons... are the horns the only issue? If not, I`ll ask him do make us a version without them, if he has time to do it?

 

[folketsfiende]

As far as I understand (which is not far btw), it's not justified having the Amazons as a civilization, as they're not a great political force. Keeping them in the game just because they've got big "axes" seems a bit weird. While some think of them as eyecandy, I believe even more people find the nude and halfnude units annoying or downright vulgar, especially the Amazon berserk. I say let's ditch the amazons!

 

[aaglo]

If I'll have it my way, they will not be removed from the "official" version, since Embryodead put them there. And saying that their "significance amounts to that of barbarians" is degrading - had they lived in old world, their significance would have been far greater (there aren't that many other nations to contact with in Lustria ).

 

[Stormrage]

Keeping them in the game just because they've got big "axes" seems a bit weird

Yeah, many of my post are weird, but I was only joking with that one

Aaglo, I`ve edited )) post #483, maybe you missed it. How bout that?

 

[Gomurr]

If I'll have it my way, they will not be removed from the "official" version, since Embryodead put them there. And saying that their "significance amounts to that of barbarians" is degrading - had they lived in old world, their significance would have been far greater (there aren't that many other nations to contact with in Lustria ).

It's not degrading, it's blunt. But degrading or blunt, however you choose to frame it, it is true. They are a tribe, singular, not even a collection of tribes that amounts to a powerful political, social or military force the like Orcs and the Dolgans. They are not a force to be reckoned with. Hell, they don't even represent enough force for other civilizations to be certain they exist. In no way do they merit a space as a civilization. And while it may be true that there aren't initially many other nations for the Lizardmen to contact, that is hardly a reason to add them. They'll have contact with both groups of Elves, and depending on what time the map reflects, they'll also have contact with the Norscans through Skeggi, possible Estalian colonies, and the Sylvanian vampies that inhabit the Southeaster coast of Lustria.

Honestly, if we're going to include the Amazons, we might as well include the Moot as an independent civ as well. We have the units for it now, and they're just as influencial as the Amazons. (And I think this comparison answers your claim that if the Amazons had been in the Old World they'd be of greater significance. )

The strongest argument for keeping the Amazons in the "official" version is that ED included them initially, and I'm not sure I'm willing to argue against that. As much as I disagree with ED's initial decision, I'm uncertain whether or not the Amazons should be deleted from the 'official' version for that reason. It really comes down to do which is valued more - improving the 'official' mod, or maintaining the new version's adherence to ED's initial mod.

Stormrage - about Aaglo's Stone Giant:

Another one of your ideas that I find rather likeable. I think I'll be moving the current Jotun model (hill giant) to Albion, as it looks more like the stone giant, and I'll give them the Stone Giant as a defensive/artillery unit. I've been meaning to add the norse-looking Giant of Aaglo's (the one with a helm and hammers) as the Norse Jotun, and that'll free the previous Albion Giant for use elsewhere.

Which reminds me: Aaglo, are you still making Civ3 units, or is that done with now that Civ4 is out? And if you are, any chance you could make the Ogre Tyrant?

 

[Stormrage]

I say, let them stay! Look, it rhymes! If you don`t like them, don`t play them... you can choose your opponents before the game starts, and if you are playing on a world map, just remove them... No reason to completly remove them... I suggested a lot of changes for the official mod, but those have all been for adding stuff, not removing. If enough new civs appear for the mod, that one of the old ones should be kicked out, than i guess it would be the Amazons.

Hmmmm....the Moot civ... Nah, they maybe as influencial as the Amazons, but they are so small. They are not like the dwarfs, right? A halfling couldn`t splitt an orcs head even if he got super pissed! They are just too weak to stand on their own... Halfling archers as they are now are fine for supporting units.

 

[Gomurr]

Just because they aren't a strong civ doesn't mean they shouldn't be given a civ. After all, "If you don`t like them, don`t play them... you can choose your opponents before the game starts, and if you are playing on a world map, just remove them..." No reason to completely exclude them

I honestly don't think they should be a civ, but based on the rational for including the Amazons (excluding the "ED did it so we shall too" reason) they merit their own civilization.

And don't underestimate halflings. In Lord of the Rings, the Halfling Pippin Took slew a massive Troll. And Merry Brandybuck, another Halfling, had a hand in the slaying of the Witch-King of the Nazgul. And when they returned to the Shire and found it overrun by orcs and swarthy men under the command of Saruman, it was Halflings who organized and expelled the invaders. And there's really no arguing that Warhammer doesn't draw heavily from Tolkien's writings, so if Halflings in Tolkien's work are capable of that, they're capable of it in Warhammer roo.

 

[Stormrage]

Read the books years ago... Forgot about the shire invasion. Didn`t they do it with the help of men?
And those two guys are like "hero" (+ Bilbo, Frodo and Samwise) characters... Not ordinary people, or units.

But, Ok, since I`m mostly for adding stuff, if someone ever gives them a civ (is there enough units? Really? aaglo made what, 6 of them?) I`ll give them a warm welcome, and a nice butt-kicking with the Skaven (who will be finished, I`m sure of it. 99%)

About you not knowing how to post the BP civ expanison, I`m sure one of the boys can explain it to you, if you`ll ever feel like it.

 

[aaglo]

Besides, halflings make excellent food
And they're second to none when using bow.

@Gomurr,
No, I haven't moved on civ4. I've just been busy with Real Life lately. What would you do with that Ogre tyrant?
About that "stone giant" -pebble-thrower: were you thinking about giving it to Norsca? And here I was, thinking that their unit-lines are already super-strong (atleast in the dark ages) ...

 

[Frostyboy]

Frosty made only the civilopedia art. But I think that's we'll follow the path laid down by embryodead, and use no artwork made by games workshop / citadel. So according to that, we won't be using those pedia pics.

It was only a suggestion, but I see why we shouldn't use stuff from GW after all

 

[Stormrage]

Umm... I have to admit... aaglo`s Norse giant (with two hammers) is the only unit he ever made that i didn`t like... Maybe if he had a big hammer held with both hands...
I think he wants to give the Jotun to Albion as a regular giant, and the Stone giant as an artillery unit. And then give the Norse your giant that was described above. And then move the old Albionese giant somewhere else, I have no idea where.

 

[Gomurr]

Read the books years ago... Forgot about the shire invasion. Didn`t they do it with the help of men?
And those two guys are like "hero" (+ Bilbo, Frodo and Samwise) characters... Not ordinary people, or units.

Yes, Pippen and Merry were 'heroes', of a sort. But that was more of a result of their journey than any actually skill of their own - months before Pip slew the Troll he was just an ordinary Hobbit youth whose biggest adventures were running from Farmer Maggot's dogs after stealing for the good farmer's fields.

And no, there was no human help for the Hobbits of the Shire. Merry and Pip just organized their respective clans, the Brandybucks and the Tooks, and led them in a revolt. Nearly all the humans, rangers who had formerly shielded the Shire, had travelled to Gondor to aid their lord Aragorn.

@Gomurr,
No, I haven't moved on civ4. I've just been busy with Real Life lately. What would you do with that Ogre tyrant?

Why, an Ogre Kingdoms civ, of course. They're a civ that has a significant effect on the Warhammer World and yet isn't represented. Whether you make it or not, I intend on hammering out a civ for them with what's available, even if it isn't really sufficient. But really, they're a significant civ in the WH world, and furthermore, any army that Games Workshop finds significant enough to make a whole army book for certainly deserves to be a civ.

So, if you were willing to make it, I for one would appreciate an Ogre Tyrant unit (actually, there are several ogre units I'd appreciate, but I'd be happy if even one were made, and the Tyrant is my top pick). Obviously, real life comes before unit making, and whatever units you think would be fun to make come before any of my humble requests. But for what it's worth, I'd like to see that one... Plus, the Tyrant looks very cool. I mean, Mongol Warrior Ogre - what's not to like?

I think he wants to give the Jotun to Albion as a regular giant, and the Stone giant as an artillery unit. And then give the Norse your giant that was described above. And then move the old Giant somewhere else, I have no idea where.

Yes, that's what I meant by my suggestion. As for where I'd like to move the old Giant, I would move it to the (tentative) Ogre Kingdoms civ, since they do have Slave Giants in their army list.

 

[Stormrage]

How bout this, the Jotun stays Norse, and the Regular Giant stays for Albion. Only Albion gets the Stone Giant for artillery. This is a suggestion for the official mod. If you ever make that Ogre civ, and it works well I guess changing one unit (jotun to dual hammer giant) for the benefit of adding another civ would be OK.(unfortunately i think you don`t have enough units even + the tyrant, for an "official" race add-on.. )
Aaglo, if you ever get back on the unit making wagon, and decide to take all of this requests, I think you can kiss your Real life goodbye
I for one am willing to halt the manticore request in favour of the Ogre civ, if that helps
I know, you can make any unit you like, it really doesnt matter that commander jac requested the manticore (and I did it "officially") first, meaning before Gomurrs Tyrant. But its some sort of showing goodwill that I would put a halt on the request, even though I can`t really stop you from making it first.. you guys know what i mean...
Just rembered, Gomurr asked for those Ogres riding on furry-rhyno-sort-or-creatures first. That unit is SWEET!

 

[Gomurr]

How bout this, the Jotun stays Norse, and the Regular Giant stays for Albion. Only Albion gets the Stone Giant for artillery. This is a suggestion for the official mod.

In my opinion, the Hill Giant (current Jotun) and the Stone Giant need to stay together. They look too much alike - much more than the current Giant and the Stone Giant - to be from different races of giants.

unfortunately i think you don`t have enough units even + the tyrant, for an "official" race add-on..

well, no, it isn't really enough for a proper Ogre army, but that's why I'll just have to get creative. I may have to do things like have the Ogre Bull serve as the model for all the 'swordsman' and 'infantry' unit, and the Irongut as the 'spearman' and 'pikeman' unit. Or possibly I'll just give Ogres equal attack and defense, and the Bull will be their mainstay unit for the Ancient Era, the Irongut as the mainstay of the Dark Age and Magic Era, or whatever. And, of course, if they're capable of enslaving Giants, they're certainly able to enslave greenskins, so I could flesh out their civ with greenskin slaves, I suppose. Maybe even Dwarvish slaves too. Who knows. I haven't devoted time to figure out exactly how I will do it, but I assure you, onceI set aside some time to work it out, I'll figure out something.

Besides, Aaglo has demonstrated a tendancy to make unit sets in the past. He went and made 3 ogres when he decided to answer a request for a new ogre unit, he's made whole unit lines at times. So if he were to make the Tyrant, while I'd be more than happy to get just the one, there's a chance of more - and when it comes to getting a proper Ogre army, I'll grasp at whatever chances there are.