Warhammer Heart of Chaos: Design Discussion

[rocklikeafool]

All I know is there is a Dark Elf War Chariot boxed set, so why not keep them?

Hmm...in light of that...I did a quick google search. I found this, http://www.druchii.net/tok/tok_chariots.html, which supports the Cold One Chariot fluffwise. Granted, the article is a bit overblown. But basic fluff support is there. So, I guess we might as well keep them, despite the fact that they seem slightly out of flavor.

 

[deadliver]

Hey like PL said, dark elves are your baby so do what you want. It seems there is not a particularly strong feeling either way.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Lemme check out some army lists online. Brb.

 

[Nelia Hawk]

whaaa with all this quoteing answering to quote answers from quotes where the starting info slowly disappears into the winds of chaos over 10 quote quote quotes, it is hard to follow this topic hahaha.

i guess i am responsible for this mess too...
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vampire corpsecart:

Corpse Cart (replaces chariot), Strength 4/3, 1 move. 0-2 firststrikes. Can not get iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units. starts with medic promotion, causes fear, undead, regeneration, and unholy loadstone promotion (= it would grant undead units in the same field the "affected by corpsecart" promotion that grants +0-1 firststrike and +10% heal with necro spell 0)
avaiable with necromancy? (or when necromancers get avaiable)

I don't like stack buffers for vampire counts. This is the direction we have gone with for khemri. Vampire counts should play differently. They have the very powerful vampires, they shouldn't be getting stack buffers too.

then just remove medic promotion and change the unholy loadstone to:
if a necromancy undead heal spell is cast to a stack with a corpse cart the spell healing effects are improved by +10%.

it could be a promotion that casters on the stack get so their heal spell is improved... or a check when you cast the heal spell, if corpsecart in the targeted stack then heal effect +10%.
so they wouldnt get big stack affecting effects anymore... just an improved heal when the corpsecart is there.

and the corpsecart can be used a chariot instead of that skeleton chariot invention...

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darkelves corsairs:

They had this before, but it should be a minor 5% bonus mostly for flavor. Otherwise it makes them into superior city attackers, which is kindof wrong.

I spose. I could argue that as the main Druchii slaver unit, they’re good city attackers. But screw it. I don’t really care a whole lot. 5% it is.

Slave raiders don't normally attack large cities in frontal assaults, they raid outlying settlements.

"corsairs are basically pirates that live in the black arches and can be found on nearly all darkelf ships. corsairs want wealth and power, they spend houndreds of years on the sea just to comeback home with as much wealth, money, treasure and slaves as possible so they can live like a prince for a few years or to buy themself a position on malekiths palace or to get married into one of the 6 dynasies that control the cities."
uhh... why am i translateing the armybook story text?

armybook = civ4 mod
they like the sea etc... = they have the amphibious promotion
they take slaves and plunder (they even got a extra slave rule) = a little chance to get slaves.
and they wear a cloak made from sea dragon scales to defend themself against bullets and arrows... = this would be the bonus against archers.

so if Ahriman thinks a bonus +15% against archers make them too strong in city attacks... just add a - 15% city attack bonus? and make them unable to get promotions that give city attack bonuses?
as they are uncomfortable with towns and would like it more to be on the sea to plunder more treasure?
problem solved? or does that open up other problems?

also: yeah they had some boni vs archers in the old mod... but i havent seen that info in the design topic... thats why i suggested it again.

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chariots nr 1:

YEAH…except we have to consider balance here.

öööhhh.... where did that answer belong to?....
(it was the answer to the skeleton horse ethereal movement stuff... nothing about chariots haha)

atleast it was answered with:

Quite frankly, why do they have a Chariot at all? I can’t find anywhere in the fluff where they do have a chariot. But it’s not a big deal. Keep Cold One Chariots, without fear.

I would be fine with dark elves losing chariots.

Well, as long as PL or someone else doesn't object, I'm removing them. So, speak now or forever lose Druchii Cold Ones Chariots.

and yeah i "object" here....

Also, NeliaHawk, if you have any editions of the Druchii Army Book with Cold Ones Chariots, you should post em the Unit Stats/Info now. Thanks.

*searches the right armybook page*

All I know is there is a Dark Elf War Chariot boxed set, so why not keep them?

this is true.

so here is the armybook info:

Spoiler :

cold one chariots:
chariot = str 5, toughness 5, wounds 4.
2 darkelves = "weapon skill" 5, "ranged skill" 4, str 4 , initiative 6, attacks 1, morale 9.
2 cold ones = movement 7, "weapon skill" 3, str 4 , initiative 2, attacks 1.
special rules:
-ethernal hate
-fear
-stupidity
-armorsave 3+
weapons:
chariot has scythed wheels.
each elf has:
-spear
-handweapon
-repeater crossbow

so... much for the unit info....

now a bit story:
"chariots is a very high prestige object for the darkelves... most chariots are presents from the witch king to warriors that have proven great bravery and skill in battle...
even malekith was battleing on his black chariot in quite alot battles (before he got the dragons) and nobles are takeing out their chariot when they see malekith to support him im battle."

blah blah blah...

why do you suddenly want to know this?

to sum that stuff above up:
as darkelf player i would say you cannot simply take out darkelf chariots, as they cannot be seen as a minor object in the armylist and darkelf fluff.

no idea how this question came up atall...
i guess somehow that fear and cold one discussion started this.
somehow i would even agree to takeing out fear from them and just keep terror at the black dragon and fear at hydra/manticore... but i dont want to start the fear discussion again... its up to PL, Ahriman and the team to decide how it will work. you will find a nice solution for the fear discusion.

i never said anything to take out that darkelf chariot

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chariots nr2:

what i said is that the vampire skeleton chariot could be taken out.

corpse cart...
[blah blah]
it could replace the "unfitting":
Skeletal Chariot (replaces Chariot) Strength 4/3, 2 moves. Can get bronze/iron/steel/meteoric iron weapons. Can withdraw from combat (25% chance). +25% vs melee units. cause fear. Undead.

as i havent read once anything about a chariot in the vampire book (6th edition but i guess in 7 there is none mentioned either)

khemris are useing chariots yeah lots of fluff texts with them in there book (i think, havent read that book)... they even have them as core unit when a tomb king is present in the army.

the only thing that is mentioned is the black coach... but that can be seen as a special chariot, compared to a normal chariot... or the darkelf one.

the other thing that is new is the corpse cart (a chariot mount for necromancer heroes) ... the vampires got that in edition 7... i havent read the new vampire book, so i dont know the fluff text for the corpse cart. (but i know the rules of it as i played against it a few times, and i mentioned them in my suggestion above.)

so if you want a chariot at the vampires the corpse cart would make much more sense somehow as it actually exists in the fluff/armybook/armylists then a "general skeleton chariot"...

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and here is some rant...
i think the sudden "agreed take out" of the darkelf chariot got me into this ranting...

Spoiler :

fluff, version, blahblah,... rant...

... we're trying to capture the feel of the setting in a way that is fun to play and leads to good faction differentiation.

all info i have are the armybooks. i am not a master in warhammer fluff ...
atleast i think that units (like the corpse cart) that are actual designed for a army should be in the mod... i dont realy care how it is in the mod, as long as somehow the link to the warhammer army can be seen...

i agree that the feeling of the army is what is important, but i think it should be similar to the warhammer army feeling... i.e. a darkelf army with holy magic... or whatever that doesnt realy make sense fluff wise shouldnt happen...

i think that its the easyest way to get that feeling if:
1st. the units are used that are used in the tabletop too.
2nd. the unit skills and abilities are somehow similar to the tabletop one.

i dont care if its str 4 or 6 or 8 or whatever you decide to give it...
or if a hydra has fire or poison is just a little detail too... where i think if noone doesnt realy care if its fire or poison, why not use that that is used in the warhammer fluff? (fire)
or if the corsairs get +50% or +5% against archers...
that they get something similar to what people know from the tabletop is what i mean. that players dont feel "that a unit is wrong".... i.e. corsairs with a bonus against cavalry would "feel wrong". with a bonus against archers people would say "yeah thats what i expect them to do".

it is too not realy important that i.e. every unit gets fear that has it in the tabletop... (you said often enough that its not possible to copy the tabletop rules to civ 4)
or that the black guard has firststrike, etcetc all the special rules they have, i think they are already fitting as royal guard unit. and i didnt suggest to add all special rules to them.. i just suggested the ones that could be used best in civ4 like a bit more firststrikes then general units and imune to psychology.

the point is too, that i think people who know abit about warhammer might would like to see the units that they have as models at home in the game... i.e. someone who plays as vampire and there wouldnt be a black coach, i think he would "miss" that unit. or ask himself why it is not in the mod?

or that players who know the units know that corsairs have a bonus against archers...

We also aren't trying to model a particular edition of tabletop rules,...

if you would update the mod everytime a new book would come out to add the new units, it would be a neverending project.

you already work .... 3 years? on the mod... and alot changed in the tabletop in these years...
i dont say that you should have everything up to date, then you wouldnt have the vampire bloodlines but just generic vampires.
here i like your design with the bloodlines way better then just generic vampires... and you still added the new units like the varghulf that wasnt avaiable in the vampire version where they had the bloodlines.

what i suggest is that where it is possible you should "use" (somehow) the newest version.
thats why i suggested to add the corpsecart... and why i suggested to give hydra fire... and the black dragon poison...
these are ofcourse just minor details... but not difficult to add, and they are "the newest verison" and doesnt realy change much in the balance or "general army feeling", but instead might open up comments like "wow unit xy is similar to the tabletop" (i said "similar" not "wow it has all rules 100% from the tabletop"... see the above paragraph)

i.e. a darkelf army of edition 3 would be way different then a edition 7 army.... and if you would make the darkelves in the mod based on the edition 3 rules and units... then it would feel "wrong" today as most warhammer people .

what i wanted to say is somehow .... you are releasing a warhammer mod today (year 2009/2010?) to use the design of 2006 when you started wouldnt fit as good as the new design of 2009.

but the mod is great... and is basically not "outdated at all"... its just the few parts that i noticed that are different in the newest armybook version. (the hydra fire, black dragon poison, corpse cart... etc...)

so enough useless "8 o clock in the morning without sleep" rant for today... but maybe someone sees what i wanted to say.
dont take that rant personally, you do a great job on the mod.

btw no need to answer to that rant stuff . i know what you would might answer to it and its perfectly fine.

 

[deadliver]

I don't think it makes sense for corsairs to have a city attack penalty. What about an immunity to first strikes, or an inherent first strike bonus of one or two. First strikes cancel each other out don't they?

edit: first strikes could help protect them against archers and also represent their hit and run tactics?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

regarding the rant (because its a good observation)

we cant update the mod every time a rule is changes in warhammer (as you said) as it is we have changed HEAPS from the first version of the mod years ago. and as you said i do try to make sure new stuff gets put into the mod (eg varghulf) where it is appropriate, but i will not remove stuff or change stuff that was better in previous versions. this includes hydra Fire and dark dragon breath (it seems wrong to have fire breathing hydras and poison breathing dark dragons) as well as the vampire bloodlines which you mentioned.

now regardign each individual rule for each individual unit.
i do not have access to every unit to make sure each rule is represented in some way. and there is no way we will have a promotion to represent every rule. we will end up with hundreds or extra promotions that way. some unique things can be used though i think, but others will just be worked into the base unit stats, or, if they do not convert well to the Civ engine, dropped altogether (ie Killing Blows and Hatred)

 

[Nelia Hawk]

regarding the rant (because its a good observation)

we cant update the mod every time a rule is changes in warhammer (as you said) as it is we have changed HEAPS from the first version of the mod years ago. and as you said i do try to make sure new stuff gets put into the mod (eg varghulf) where it is appropriate, but i will not remove stuff or change stuff that was better in previous versions. this includes hydra Fire and dark dragon breath (it seems wrong to have fire breathing hydras and poison breathing dark dragons) as well as the vampire bloodlines which you mentioned.

now regardign each individual rule for each individual unit.
i do not have access to every unit to make sure each rule is represented in some way. and there is no way we will have a promotion to represent every rule. we will end up with hundreds or extra promotions that way. some unique things can be used though i think, but others will just be worked into the base unit stats, or, if they do not convert well to the Civ engine, dropped altogether (ie Killing Blows and Hatred)

yeah, as i said everything is fine
i like it how you all work on this mod, and its ok that not everything is inside as its in the armybooks (special rules etc...).

as i said once in a other post:
all i say are basically just ideas and not "it has to be in".
if you guys get an idea for something out of my suggestion then use it... when not ignore it and follow your design. (what will be 95% of my ideas )

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I don't think it makes sense for corsairs to have a city attack penalty. What about an immunity to first strikes, or an inherent first strike bonus of one or two. First strikes cancel each other out don't they?

edit: first strikes could help protect them against archers and also represent their hit and run tactics?

i know that an attack penality is not the best solution... but its the quickest way to get ahirmans "its too strong vs town with an archer bonus" complain away...

hmm extra firststrikes or imunity would make them better to alot units not just archers.
hmm on the other hand... they have 2 handweapons and the option for "short range mini repeater hand crossbows"... so an extra firststrike might be possible...
but there are other units that do alot more attacks or actual always strike first where it might be more fitting then at corsairs...

but i still think a defence bonus vs archers would be the best here...

 

[rocklikeafool]

so here is the armybook info:

Spoiler :

cold one chariots:
chariot = str 5, toughness 5, wounds 4.
2 darkelves = "weapon skill" 5, "ranged skill" 4, str 4 , initiative 6, attacks 1, morale 9.
2 cold ones = movement 7, "weapon skill" 3, str 4 , initiative 2, attacks 1.
special rules:
-eternal hate
-fear
-stupidity
-armorsave 3+
weapons:
chariot has scythed wheels.
each elf has:
-spear
-handweapon
-repeater crossbow

so... much for the unit info....

now a bit story:
"chariots is a very high prestige object for the darkelves... most chariots are presents from the witch king to warriors that have proven great bravery and skill in battle...
even malekith was battleing on his black chariot in quite alot battles (before he got the dragons) and nobles are takeing out their chariot when they see malekith to support him im battle."

Been looking for that for an hour. Fricking A, the internet is useless for finding specific things like this. Thank you very much, Nelia, that was a big help. For our purposes, thinking they don't need Fear or Stupidity. They're an early unit, as Ahri said, so why tag these onto them? Just complicates it.

why do you suddenly want to know this?

I wanted to know how important Chariots were to the Druchii army. And now I see VERY!

to sum that stuff above up:
as darkelf player i would say you cannot simply take out darkelf chariots, as they cannot be seen as a minor object in the armylist and darkelf fluff.

Agreed. Cold Ones Chariots stay in!



But if Ahri doesn't object...
I'd like to suggest Assassins for the Druchii. I've been checking GW (for Cold Ones Chariots, albeit fruitlessly)...anyway, I saw coupla entries on Druchii Assassins.
Basically, I think they could be pretty damn similar to Skaven Assassins, except not as weak or available so early. I think Assassins are pretty useful for the Druchii, since they're all about Death & Murder.

Unit Design:

Spoiler :

Dark Elf Assassin: Req. Fanaticism & Temple of Khaine. National UU (Limit 5). Cost: 100 Hammers. 4/2+2Poison, 2 moves, 1 First Strike, -50% City Attack, Invisible. Cannot use Metal Weapons or gain Wartats, Marksman, & Druchii racial promotion.

Fluff (aka potential Pedia Entry?):

Spoiler :

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50015&prodId=prod1360005
Strategy:
Assassins are the most deadly and evil of all Dark Elves. Trained from birth in the arts of war and death, they are masters of subtle and murderous magic. Assassins' weapons are coated with a variety of venoms. One scratch from some of these poisons is enough to send a man into agonising paroxysms as his nerves burn, his heart explodes or his bones crack and shatter.

And...

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50013&prodId=prod790892
Background:
Shadowblade is the greatest Assassin ever to be trained by the Temple of Khaine. No-one has ever seen Shadowblade's face and lived - he slew his master when he had learnt all that he could. A legend among the Druchii, his exploits are told as fireside tales to eager Dark Elf children.

I don't think it makes sense for corsairs to have a city attack penalty. What about an immunity to first strikes, or an inherent first strike bonus of one or two. First strikes cancel each other out don't they?

edit: first strikes could help protect them against archers and also represent their hit and run tactics?

I agree on both points. Maybe a first strik chance or two'd be better though? Balancewise I mean.

 

[Nelia Hawk]

I'd like to suggest Assassins for the Druchii. I've been checking GW (for Cold Ones Chariots, albeit fruitlessly)...anyway, I saw coupla entries on Druchii Assassins.
Basically, I think they could be pretty damn similar to Skaven Assassins, except not as weak or available so early. I think Assassins are pretty useful for the Druchii, since they're all about Death & Murder.

Unit Design:

Spoiler :

Dark Elf Assassin: Req. Fanaticism & Temple of Khaine. National UU (Limit 5). Cost: 100 Hammers. 4/2+2Poison, 2 moves, 1 First Strike, -50% City Attack, Invisible. Cannot use Metal Weapons or gain Wartats, Marksman, & Druchii racial promotion.

to make it short:
/signs

to make it a bit longer:

Spoiler :

i wanted to sugggest these guys too somewhere in on of my last 10 posts here... but i thought every race has access to a "assassin unit" somehow? or???

atleast i would say the assassin ranking should be (skill/strength/balance wise):
1st. darkelves
2nd. skaven
3rd. if someone else get a special assassin... (ninjas? nippon?, dunno if somewhere is another "better then normal" assassin).
4th the basic version for everyone else who doesnt have a special assassin version.

maybe give the darkelf and skaven one imune to firststrikes? (but it might be too much again... as they are already invisible, and have marksman...)
but considder to make darkelf firststrike 2 (+1 with druchii)... (no idea if 3 firststrikes are unbalanced again....)

atleast they can get alot attacks. (in the tabletop they can (!) get stats like: 4 +D3 attacks always strike first, str +1 of target toughness, weapon skill 9/10, initiative 10/10. (+1 attack with couldron of blood blessing, +1 attack with battlestandard banner))
i think the skaven one cant realy get more then 4 or 5 attacks...

 

[rocklikeafool]

The Skaven Assassin is already designed here, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=334546, post 6. My post above is the 1st suggestion of a Druchii Assassin, short of the Are'Laff Barb Hero. (Course, that's just a rare event easter egg.) And imho, seeing as Assassin are listed as a core unit on GW, having a Barb Assassin Hero (former Druchii) doesn't emphasize the Temple of Khaine's training of these guys.

I mean, on the GW site, Skaven Assassins are a lord choice. Not the same as a Core Unit choice for the Druchii. Anyway, I disgress. I think you get it.

 

[Nelia Hawk]

The Skaven Assassin is already designed here, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=334546, post 6. My post above is the 1st suggestion of a Druchii Assassin, short of the Are'Laff Barb Hero. (Course, that's just a rare event easter egg.) And imho, seeing as Assassin are listed as a core unit on GW, having a Barb Assassin Hero (former Druchii) doesn't emphasize the Temple of Khaine's training of these guys.

I mean, on the GW site, Skaven Assassins are a lord choice. Not the same as a Core Unit choice for the Druchii. Anyway, I disgress. I think you get it.

skaven assassins use a hero choice (lord would be crazy).
d11 assassins are heroes (hmm atleast count as characters...), but dont use a hero choice (and dont use a core choice either).

the skaven special character "deathmaster sniktch" uses a lord and a hero...
but here i have to say that the skaven armybook is quite old too.... there are rumors that the skaven get a new armybook ... soon... (cant remember if the rumors said even this year... somewhere the next 12 months... atleast if the rumors are true)
the darkelf special character shadowblade "just" (compared to the skaven one) uses a hero slot.

but i guess we keep tabletop discussions out of here

--------------------------------------------------------
assassin design:
the skaven one looks ok... i would have suggested that its a bit weaker and cheaper to produce, but the idea to make him avaiable earlyer is nice there.

maybe make darkelf ones 10% more expensive then a basic assassin. but a bit stronger (+1 poison and +1 firststrike more then the basic one?. or the ideas some posts above)
--------------------------------------------------------

barbarian assassin:
dont know the event story text... but maybe make him a skaven assassin who fell into a warpstonepit (an assassin who "fell" into a pit? uhh... ) and all the warpstone made him crazy... or something else...

-----------------------------
edit:
oh, true d11 assassins are "listed" as core...
i guess i mentioned them as "still" hero, because they are used like a characters.

 

[rocklikeafool]

assassin design:
the skaven one looks ok... i would have suggested that its a bit weaker and cheaper to produce, but the idea to make him avaiable earlyer is nice there.

maybe make darkelf ones 10% more expensive then a basic assassin. but a bit stronger (+1 poison and +1 firststrike more then the basic one?. or the ideas some posts above)


barbarian assassin:
dont know the event story text... but maybe make him a skaven assassin who fell into a warpstonepit (an assassin who "fell" into a pit? uhh... ) and all the warpstone made him crazy... or something else...

We already have the basic Assassin & Skaven Assassin designs balanced. My point with suggesting the Druchii Assassin was to suggest a unit to add something, while being a balanced unit. Unfortunately, what you're suggesting would unbalance things.

As for the barb assassin, his story is already finished. Druchii Lord who went rogue basically. Ask PL about him if you're curious. He's handling that part.

skaven assassins use a hero choice (lord would be crazy).

My bad, typo.


Anyway, going to bed, y'll. Or gonna try. Haven't been sleeping easy lately. Sure as hell don't know why.

 

[Ahriman]

im not sure why cathay chariots arent there. id be fine to add them.

I'd be fine with having the normal standard chariot and war chariot. A brief skim of chinese military history suggests that they did use chariots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_armies_(Pre-1911)

then just remove medic promotion and change the unholy loadstone to:
if a necromancy undead heal spell is cast to a stack with a corpse cart the spell healing effects are improved by +10%.

Necromancy will be summoning and maybe some weak damage; it shouldn't have heal spells. The Khemri incantations can heal the undead, we're trying to make necromancy different.

problem solved? or does that open up other problems?

The problem is solved by making their cloaks just give a +5% vs ranged units bonus, as per design. This captures the flavor of the bonus without messing up balance. Starting to add city attack penalties woudl just be strange.
This captures the flavor without messing up balance.

as darkelf player i would say you cannot simply take out darkelf chariots

I have no problem with a normal dark elf chariot, with art having it pulled by coldones. They don't need a warchariot though. Every race has to have weaknesses and gaps, and dark elves are at big risk of not having any.

so if you want a chariot at the vampires the corpse cart

The corpse cart makes no logical sense as a military units, it doesn't attack people.

What about an immunity to first strikes, or an inherent first strike bonus of one or two.

Immunity to first strikes is very powerful, and melee units shouldnt' be getting more first strikes. The 5% bonus vs archers is fine.
Their hit and run bonus is represented by their first strike chance and extra movement point in the dark elf racial promotion.

but others will just be worked into the base unit stats, or, if they do not convert well to the Civ engine, dropped altogether (ie Killing Blows and Hatred)

*cheers*
Looks like I have managed to convert you to my design perspective

I'd like to suggest Assassins for the Druchii.

Yes, DE had an assassin in the old version (it was incredibly overpowered), it is very much in flavor.
The Assassin should probably be a hired assassin replacement (DE aren't really going to be hiring others for the dirty work, and I doubt they feel the need to hide that it was them who killed someone), but I could see it having different tech requirements.

Dark Elf Assassin: Req. Fanaticism & Temple of Khaine. National UU (Limit 5). Cost: 100 Hammers. 4/2+2Poison, 2 moves, 1 First Strike, -50% City Attack, Invisible. Cannot use Metal Weapons or gain Wartats, Marksman, & Druchii racial promotion.

I object to invisible, and first strikes belong on ranged units in this mod. Marksmen already represents that they're sneaking past defenders.
I would probably go with:
6/4+1poison. Recon class unit. 2 moves. Require fanaticism tech. -50% city attack. No metal weapons or wartats. Starts with marksmen, Druichii racial promotion. 120 hammers.

This would be the most powerful assassin in the game (other than heroes), which is appropriate, but a fairly late-game unit.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

*cheers*
Looks like I have managed to convert you to my design perspective

:shiftyeyes: maybe you have...

 

[rocklikeafool]

The problem is solved by making their cloaks just give a +5% vs ranged units bonus, as per design. This captures the flavor of the bonus without messing up balance. Starting to add city attack penalties woudl just be strange.
This captures the flavor without messing up balance.

Yeah, I just went with the +5% against Archers anyway. I’m lazy & figured it’d be easier.

They don't need a warchariot though. Every race has to have weaknesses and gaps, and dark elves are at big risk of not having any.

Agreed. Besides, a Druchii War Chariot? That’s…it just feels odd…No War Chariot for Malekith & his followers.

The 5% bonus vs archers is fine.

Yup. Didn’t add any 1st Strikes to Corsairs.

6/4+1poison. Recon class unit. 2 moves. Require fanaticism tech. -50% city attack. No metal weapons or wartats. Starts with marksmen, Druichii racial promotion. 120 hammers.

This would be the most powerful assassin in the game (other than heroes), which is appropriate, but a fairly late-game unit.

K. That sounds good to me. I will code it in.

@PL
If you'd please add the Druchii Assassin to the Design Overview, when you get round to it. Thanks.

 

[Ahriman]

Some more things I noticed:
Dark elves

Militia repeater crossbow (replace militia archer). Same as militia archer, but -1 strength, and +15% vs melee units and blitz.

These should be -1 *defense* strength, not -1 strength. And then give them -1 ranged attack relative to normal militia archers.

Empire

Hochman Archer Regiment (replaces Militia archer regiment).

Should be Hochland, not Hochman. Its the name of one of the counties.

Human no special effect.

There is no need for a human racial promotion; this is the default.

Dwarven Guerilla Warband
Dwarven Mountaineers

I thought dwarven rangers was a canon name?

Sylvania

Zombie Horde (replaces Militia Swordsman). 3+2death strength. +10% city attack strength. Can use metal weapons. Undead. Eternal Army. Cannibal. Death does not cause War Weariness. Requires Tyranny tech, Vampire Necromancy 1 tech. Does NOT require iron working tech.

Its probably better to leave this at the normal militia swordsmen tech requirements.
And similarly for the skeletal warrior and archers.
Or the normal requirements plus necromancy.
These requirements were written before the tech tree changes.

Please remove troll vomit from the chaos troll. Its really stupid as a weapon, and overpowered in its incarnation; vomitus is more powerful than a regiment of longbows?
If you want to keep this, maybe it could be a mutation promotion.
* * * *
Changes incorporating the ranged bombardment system:
Steam tank. Give it a strength 10 ranged attack bombardment.
Great cannon. (replaces Cannon). Strength 7. Can bombard city defenses 15%. Ranged attack strength 10 (collateral to 3 units), can do maximum 50% damage.
Field trebuchet (replaces Ballista). Strength 7/5. 1 first strike. Withdraw chance 40%. Does collateral damage to 2 units. Can bombard city defenses 10%. Ranged attack strength 7 (collateral to 2 units), can do maximum 40% damage.
Strzelcy Warband. Ranged attack strength 4. Can do maximum 20% damage.
Bombard (replaces cannon) Strength 7. Can bombard city defenses 25%. Ranged attack strength 9 (collateral to 2 units), can do maximum 40% damage.

Grudge thrower (replaces catapult) Strength 5. +50% city attack bonus. Can bombard city defenses 10%. Withdraw chance 40%. Ranged attack strength 5 (collateral to 1 unit), can do maximum 40% damage.

Dwarf Cannon (replaces ballista).
Cannon (cannons tech). Strength 7. Can bombard city defenses 15%. Ranged attack strength 9 (collateral to 2 units), can do maximum 40% damage.
Requires Invention AND Alchemy.

Skull thrower (replaces catapult) Strength 4. Can bombard city defenses 10%.
Ranged attack strength 5 (collateral to 1 unit), can do maximum 40% damage.

Battering ram (replaces catapult). Strength 4. Can bombard city defenses 8%. No ranged attack. -20% cost of normal catapult.
Available to Amazonians and Beastmen.

Warpfire thrower (replaces catapult)
Strength 6/4. +50% city attack bonus. Can bombard city defenses 10%. Withdraw chance 45%.

Warp lightning cannon (replaces cannon)
Requires warpstone.
Strength 5+2 lightning. Can bombard city defenses 15%. Ranged attack strength 9 (collateral to 2 units), can do maximum 40% damage.

Earthshaker (replaces Cannon). Strength 7. Can bombard city defenses 15%. Ranged attack strength 10 (collateral to 3 units), can do maximum 50% damage.

Hellcannon (replaces cannon) same as standard cannon, except also requires the Bloodlust of Khorne tech.

Spear chukka (replaces catapult)
Strength 5. 1 first strike. Withdraw chance 40%. Can bombard city defenses 5%. Ranged attack strength 5 (collateral to 2 units), can do maximum 40% damage.

Rock lobba (replaces ballista)
Strength 5. +50% city attack bonus. Can bombard city defenses 10%. Withdraw chance 40%.
Ranged attack strength 5 (collateral to 1 unit), can do maximum 40% damage.

Doom diver. Requires fanaticism tech. Strength 4. Ranged attack strength 9, can do maximum 40% damage.

* * *
To clarify which civs get which siege units. These can be tweaked if anyone has particular preferences (like adding units to some civs).

Wood elves get nothing (but treekin can bombard city walls, as can a WE spell).
High elves get Eagle claw (ballista replacement) only.
Dark elves get repeater bolt thrower (ballista replacement) only.
Empire gets Catapult and great cannon (cannon replacement). Also ballista??
Bretonnia get catapult and field trebuchet (ballista replacement)
Kislev get catapult and cannon.
Estalia get catapult and cannon.
Tilea get catapult and ballista and bombard (cannon replacement).
Dwarves get grudge thrower (catapult replacement), dwarf cannon (ballista replacement), flame cannon (cannon replacement) and organ gun.
Sylvania and Lahmia get skull thrower (weak catapult replacement).
Khemri should probably also get skill thrower (weak catapult replacement).
Beastment should probably get a battering ram.
Skaven get warpfire thrower (catapult replacement) and warp lightning cannon (cannon replacement).
Chaos dwarf get catapult and swivel gun (ballista replacement =machinegun) and earthshaker (cannon replacement).
Norsca/Kurgan/Hung get catapult and Hellcannon
Ind gets catapult. (probably no cannon)
Araby gets catapult and cannon
Cathay gets catapult and cannon.
Nippon gets catapult and cannon.
Lizardmen get ???
Amazonia get battering ram.
Orks get spear chukka (catapult replacement) and rock lobba (ballista replacement).
Goblins get spear chukka (catapult replacement) and rock lobba (ballista replacement) and Doom diver.

 

[Nelia Hawk]

I have no problem with a normal dark elf chariot, with art having it pulled by coldones. They don't need a warchariot though.

Agreed. Besides, a Druchii War Chariot? That’s…it just feels odd…No War Chariot for Malekith & his followers.

/signs
a war chariot is not needed...

Every race has to have weaknesses and gaps, and dark elves are at big risk of not having any.

mhm,
tabletop wise they dont have much strength and toughness... but as these "values" are not used in civ4 its hard to copy that weakness...
maybe a -1def str on several units compared to other races?

and they are a bit expensive... in a way that you dont have that many people and when you lose a bit too many it gets difficult.
maybe make all of them a bit more expensive then usual units?

or settlers more expensive? as they just have a few big towns and not alot villages like i.e. the empire.
and workers could be more expensive too, as they use slaves for their work?

or a higher city meintanance? to display they are better with a few towns then a hundred?

but i guess -1def str wouldnt make them balanced and makeing them more expensive wouldnt realy be a weakness either, i think it would just be a 1-2 turn delay and no weakness?...
so i have no idea how to get a balanced weakness to them...maybe you have something already in your designs?

 

[Ahriman]

More things I noticed:

Horselord mounted units only, +1 move (was there anything else?)

Double construction of hippodrome and stables.

Kislev:

no pikemen.

This was my old design; every faction needs something in the pikemen slot. Normal pikemen would be fine here.
Also, should Kislev units get a +10% tundra strength racial promotion?
Kislev risks being weak.

* * *

We're missing the beastmaster unit. It only accessible to a few units, but I should have put it into the original recon design.

____ Beastmaster
Strength 9. No metal weapons. Can use wartats. 2 moves.
Can see invisible units.
+25% vs beasts.
-20 % city strength.
+20% _terrainx_ strength
Hammer cost: 180.

Only available to:
Amazonian (jungle). The amazonian one can *capture* beasts as in FFH.
Beastment (forest). The beastmen one can capture beast units as in FFH.
Kislev (tundra). no capture.

 

[Ahriman]

maybe make all of them a bit more expensive then usual units?

This is how they are currently modelled; the Dark elves get a "Druichii population" building in every city that give -15% military production.

 

[Ahriman]

Khemri

a) 'Curse of Nagash' promotion added to all tomb king units that are inside borders that gives can heal while moving
b) 'Curse of Nagash' promotion added to all tomb king units that are outside borders that gives -20% attack strength

Make the first one "blessings of Nagash".
I think they need to be two separate promotions; I don't think you can make a promotion give "can heal while moving while inside cultural borders". Instead, you need to have a promotion active while inside cultural borders (like the homeland promotion) that gives "can heal while moving", and a promotion active while outside cultural borders (like Elohim pacifism) that gives "-20% strength".

Blocked buildings for Khemri:
Granary, harbor, tanner, grocer, theatre, brothel, dungeon, herbalist, sewers, graveyard,