[Warlords][Mod] Kets Composite Mod

[Impaler[WrG]]

Well my main concern about compas is it puts Harbor so late, if the Harbor building could be moved back into the Classical period then that solves most of the problem, perhaps Compass>Optics>Astronomy would be a good path.

I think theirs a memory leak in the current build, this is probably due to including Python stuff that the SDK dosn't yet support. As you play it gradualy bogs down, turn processing gets longer and longer, memory consumption goes up and up. I'll need to test some more to see if any of this leakage is coming from the Dll and if so I'll plug it, most likley its Python so I'd recomend removing any Python mods that arn't yet supported (its not like their doing anything). Once their supported they can be re-included.

I played as Mongolia and got a white flag, thats the only one I've tested.

 

[Ket]

Since I converted over the only thing in python at the moment thats not in the build is Unit Statistics. I don't doubt that its causing a memory leak.
It may also be Formations and be graphical related. But we tested at single graphics and noticed very slight increase in slowdown, yes there was still a slowdown but it was not that bad.
I've always though the getting from a pickle code in Unit Stats had issues, sevo even claims its was causing some CTD's

I was going to do a compile for .4 that included Dale's Combat Mod, Unit Statistics, the 24 Civ Hack and whatever you had ready to go.

I'll bounce compass back to Late Classical 500-0BCE

 

[Ket]

I can not confirm Mongolian White Flag Issue.



I know certain graphics cards have issues with .DDS files or some such but I never looked into it. I'll do some research....

I'm thinking about adding a few turns to the beginning of the game and starting the game a bit earlier. (somewhere between 5k and 10k) this just causes the early tech's to hit a bit closer to the actual time period

 

[Ket]

I dont need any python to use <bflying> correct?

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

correct its all SDK and the Unit schema
I know I have used other new or custom flags before, odd

I'm almost done with the Trait code, the v2.00.03 of the CCCP with have thouse 3 new trait tags activated along with Building Diplomacy modifier. You can DL and add the 24 Civ define (easy) but I'm wondering if the UnitStatistics can be altered to avoid memory leaks in the future. Likewise Dales stack combat mod is very complex and definatly something I would want to make a game Option. When you have these added send me back the code and I'll play around with them for my v0.04 release.

 

[Ket]

Yea I'll hold off on my merge until 2.0.0.3 and then send you back the code.

Dale built in config options. I'm using it mostly for Missiles, and Field Bombardment. I'm not a fan of the Stacked Combat I want to see it tested a bit more and since dale seems to have pulled the plug on the project I'm not sure how I feel about that. But Field Bombardment, Missiles and His M.A.D. code is rock solid.

If you can optimize the stats stuff, I would say we should add it in (CCCP(W)), as its a very popular mod... If not leave it out, to many issues.

I'm KNEE deep in XML unit changes. This is about the most difficult part of the composite, as compares and diff's just dont make it any easier.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Is anyone else experienceing an exception when they try to view the Mehed II leaderhead. I'm at a total losse to explain whats happening as its only effecting this one leader. I've unloaded the mod and gone so far as to re-install and still have this issue.

 

[Ket]

Yea its your graphics card, that explains the white flag issue as well.
I will get some flags with the alphachannel removed.

In the mean time there is a Mehed II fix in the file database (its in most popular downloads so its easy to find) and its from firaxis

 

[keldath]

hi ket!

say ket,

about memed 2 -does its graphic cause the ctd??

cause that would really explain somthing...


and what about v4?

 

[Ket]

In some graphics card there is a mahmed crash. Firaxis released a quick fix for it, its in the file database.

Version .3 is with the testers right now.
Version .4 is SLOWLY comeing along.

Major unit editing is allways the slow part, at least for me. Almost every unit is shifting a bit in the tech tree as the tech tree is majorly different. I'm doing this in 2 parts First part is for .4

Unit position Changes
Base Unit Classes(New Units a good deal of new units)
More than likely I will disable the modern flavor units as they are being re-assigned.
Some of Dale's Combat Mod (Bombardment, MAD, Missile)

Then at around .6 after public release I will go for a unit stat change and add the second round of units.

I would kill for a good unit editor. I may take a break waiting for feedback from public release and design a unit editor for warlords that will work even if new tags are added (some form of description field or comment in the schema)


Do you want me to send you the test version of .3?

 

[Ket]

Hey Impaler....

Stealth Change?

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Opps looks like I forgot the text to Lopez's replaced by Unit Mod (I had forgoten I even added it in ), I have a updated the 2.00.03 Assets pack with the required text in it over at the CCCP thread.

My Mehemed II problem is fixed (after wasting half a day ofcorse)
Send me a copy of the next version and I'll give it a whirl

I've desided to add ProductionTraitBonuses tags to the BuildingClass (ware it should have gone in the first place if Firaxis had any forsight) because its rather messy in WL to do building bonuses for traits (which I plan to do a lot of) and list everysingle replacment version so that various Civs get bonuses when building them. Its also more robust as people mod the game and add more replacment buildings. So my Traitmod will be on hold till thats done.

I could look into integrating Dale's Combat Mod if your burried in unit Editing, but feel free to make changes to the current 2.00.03 code base, I can easily merge it back in. We just need to cordinate who's doing what to avoid duplication and wasted effort.

 

[Ket]

If you want to do a sdk merge for me, it would save me a good deal of time. I can PM you with the details. Just give me the word.

These changes are impacted by our compass change. Any thoughts...
Gallion @ Compass
Caraval @ Astronomy
Frigate @ Compass W/ Gunpowder
Explorer @ Optics

Explorer I can move back to compass, Caraval to Optics... Frig back to vanilla? I'm not looking at my tree to see if there is a better location.

Complete list of unit tech moves follows

Spoiler :

Expansive Gives 25% Reduction Of Cost To Settler
Modern Armor @ Robotics W/ Composites
Mechinized Inf Requires Oil
Grenader @ Rifling W/Chemistry
Explorer @ Optics
Cannon @ Metalurgy And Chemestry
Catapult @ Mathmatics
Jet Fighter @ Jet Flight
Spy @ Espionage and Cheaper to Build
Macemen, Samarui, Beserker @ Feudalism W/ Metal Casting
Spearman @ Bronze Working
Pikemen @ Guilds
Machine Gun @ Assembly W/Steel
Longbow @ Civil Service
Knight @ Civil Service W/ Horseback And Metal Casting 10% Withdraw
Gunship @ Jet Flight W/ Rocketry
Catapult Upgrades To Trebuchet
Gallion @ Compass
Caraval @ Astronomy
Frigate @ Compass W/ Gunpowder
Subs @ Combustion Blitz
Bomber @ Flight
Stealth Bomber @ Composites W/ Advanced Flight
Nukes Are Not Nuke Immune

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Its hard to say how that will play out, the critical parts is how soon Caravel/Galeon happen as thats the real start of the navel game and determines how long your continents stay isolated. Explorers are generaly useless, if they came earlier they might not be. Frigates shold be late enough that they give Galeons a chance to shine.

Cannon could be just strait metalurgy + GunPowder (I've always though they were way too late)

Gnart's mod had a nice Chivalry tech which would be a great place for Knight, it would come from Fudilism or Monarchy maybe requiring something else as well and be modest tech cost so people can realy have a Knight oriented strategy. Currently the middle ages are totaly maceman dominated. Knights should require Chivalry, HBR and IronWorking. Knights need lots of help in my opinion.

I had an idea once for spliting spearman into "guy with pointy stick, power 3, +50% vs Mounted, no resorces at Hunting" this would be a viable alternative to archery for atleast a whial in the early game.

A new "Warrior Code" tech some time later gives the traditonal Spearman and takes Slavery along with the Barracks (its onlonger avalibe from the start), also why not put Shock Promotion their as well.

As for SDK, shure I merge it, this weekend I'm working so next to nothing can be done (I'll probably do some bug hunting on the load-crash and thats about it). I had a look at Dales code and found it quite well formated/documented/looked-easy-to-incorporate. What should the top priority be?

 

[Ket]

Save load crash for CCCP is definatly top priority. Since it effects more than just me. Although I'm hopeing that with the re-release of this mod it gets the CCCP some more exposure. Eventualy I plan to kill this thread and start a new one with the new mod, or just use this for support of the allready released .35 , and only fix critical bugs in .35 and call it done being replaced by .5 Composite XL

I loved Gnarts Chivarly tech. I also love the crusader concept, tutonic knight....
But it may be overpowered for the christians only. Thinking of how to do that properlly Definatly one of those wonders where im going to give a diplo reduction. Eventualy when we can python control it. I'll do something like
only apply it to religions that are not the same.

I plan on doing a Age by Age pass through and bring in enhancements to each age but ballance concerns me. I have a good deal of new units for this pass. Plus all the UU Civ Gold Stuff comeing in at .6

I was thinking of an early cannon to go at gunpowder/metal


Will look at the naval units when I have my tech's in front of me. (At work)

 

[GRM7584]

Save load crash for CCCP is definatly top priority. Since it effects more than just me. Although I'm hopeing that with the re-release of this mod it gets the CCCP some more exposure. Eventualy I plan to kill this thread and start a new one with the new mod, or just use this for support of the allready released .35 , and only fix critical bugs in .35 and call it done being replaced by .5 Composite XL

Well, that's that...my main reason for logging on was to report the save/load thing.

I plan on doing a Age by Age pass through and bring in enhancements to each age but ballance concerns me. I have a good deal of new units for this pass. Plus all the UU Civ Gold Stuff comeing in at .6

There are a lot of techs which are without benefits, which is definitely unpleasant compared to vanilla. Some of your unit moves will help that, and new units will too; most of my recommendations for units already appear to be making it in.

I was thinking of an early cannon to go at gunpowder/metal

I like the idea of an early cannon, and there are graphics around to make a bombard with.

Apart from that, I was doing a few sample games, and decided on playing one all the way through and making a full list of wonder foundings to compare them to historical foundings, but it stops at 1540 due to the save/load thing . Games played were Emperor, Standard, Terra, which is how I almost always play.
For what its worth:

Spoiler Wonders History :

Wonder: Sample Game Completion (Rough Historical Completion)

Stonehenge: 1480 BC (Latest stage of construction: 2000 BC) (Human Player)
The Great Wall: 1240 BC (200 BC)
The Sphinx: 1240 BC (Same as "Great Pyramids", 25th century BC) (Human Player)
The Oracle: 1320 BC (Varies: Actual model is [I think] of Tholos, completed in 360 BC, Oracle "established" in BC 700s)
Statue of Zeus: 825 BC (435 BC)
The Parthenon: 825 BC (430 BC) (Human Player)
Colossus: 800 BC (280 BC)
Temple of Artemis: 775 BC (550 BC)
The Pyramids: 700 BC (Varies: Great Pyramid completed in 2560 BC, Pyramid of Khafre completed in 2532 BC)
Great Library: 200 BC (3rd Century BC)
Hanging Gardens: 175 BC (600 BC)
Mausoleum: 250 BC (350 BC)
Ziggurat of Marduk: 25 BC (6th Century BC)
Chichen Itza: 25 BC (Varies: model is of Temple of Kukulkan, built in 900 AD, Chichen Itza as a city was important from 600 AD onwards; Since it was in the New World, however, it could be said to be "Behind the times", so its completion time is fairly irrelevant, I think)
Code of Hammurabi: 575 BC (1780 BC [Or earlier, depending on chronology used])
The Art of War: 275 AD (6th century BC)
Hagia Sophia: 500 AD (varies: 6th century BC, rededicated several times due to damage)
Sistine Chapel: 980 AD (varies: Mikey finished the ceiling in 1512 AD) (additional curiousity: Michaelangelo is a pivotal figure of the italian renaissance)
Notre Dame: 1010 AD (1345 AD)
University of Sankore: 1060 AD (Varies: Original construction dates to 10th century AD, did not gain reputation until early 14th century)
Versailles: 1080 AD (Varies: Louis "moved in" around 1680)
The Spiral Minaret: 1130 AD (9th century AD)
Leonardo's Workshop: 1150 AD (Fair placement: 1500 AD) (additional curiousity: Leonardo is a pivotal figure of the italian renaissance)
Taj Mahal: 1210 AD (1653 AD)
Angkor Wat: 1220 AD (12 century AD)
Springfield Armory: 1450 AD (varies: late 18th century fits best.) (Gameplay note: Vastly overpowered wonder in theory, computer may have difficulty dealing with in practice.)

And for religion foundings:

Spoiler Religion History :

Sample Game (Human Player didn't pursue religions):
Hinduism: 3240 BC (Historic Founding: around 1800-1500 BC for Vedic traditions, more extreme estimates say that elements existed as far back as 3000)
Judaism: 2480 BC (Historic Founding: around 1800 BC [for Abraham's convenant])
Confucianism: 425 BC (Historic Founding: varies, probably best to say "around 3rd century BC)
Buddhism: 200 BC (Historic Founding: around 5th century BC)
Taoism: 25 BC (Historic Founding: varies, probably best to say "around 3rd century BC)
Christianity: 25 BC (Historic Founding: 1st century AD for early Christianity)
Islam: 250 AD (Historic Founding: 7th Century AD)

Sample Founding of Christianity when pursued passively by player (No Mysticism, No Oracle Slingshot, No Financial):
75 AD

There were also a handful of other things I had jotted down regarding gameplay balance, not sure how many of them are relevant.

Spoiler :

-Oligarchy available too soon; even non-spiritual landlocked AIs always adopt before later gov civics become available.
-Oligarchy overpowered for coastal civs and useless for landlocked, effect magnified depending on map (Terra frequently starts civs with 5-6+ sea resources in the city radius)
-Barter and Cash Economy seem somewhat unbalanced; Barter less so, as it is only useful at the very beginning of the game, but is quite powerful. Cash economy is a seemingly worthless option, even in combination with serfdom or slavery.
-Bureaucracy is a game-breakingly powerful civic, it seems, especially in combination with the Parthenon. (+50% commerce *and* +3 Gold per Specialist being the key factors)

(Wonders: Marble v Stone)
Ancient Stone: 5
Ancient Marble: 2
Classical Stone: 4
Classical Marble: 1
Medieval Stone: 4
Medieval Marble: 3
Ren Marble: 1
Modern Stone: 1..wait...what? CN Tower doubles with Stone?


Total Stone: 14
Total Marble: 7

-Ancient Recommendations: Remove Stone production modifier for Hammurabi's Code (not sure why it's like that as it is), Remove Stone production modifier for Sphinx (Not a stretch; it was carved out of local bedrock rather than assembled with stone bricks)
-Classical Recommendations: Change Mausoleum from Stone to Marble (Not a stretch: Mausoleum used marble extensively in its decoration, and the main tomb was composed mostly of marble)

 

[Ket]

Wow thats good data!

I have the tree balanced for Noble so those numbers look o.k. to me do you see anything that strikes you as completely odd?

The tree should get fleshed out much more so with the new units.
For example there are a few classes of aircraft now

Bi-Planes - WWII era - Jets (Vietnam/Korea) - Stealth - Modern

I'm so far behind where I wanted to be for units though, was hoping to get the unit build out today... There so needs to be some tools for this created.

The wonders are still being fleshed and there are some new tags going into the civics. I do need to look at the ones you mentioned nothings supposed to be the UBER civic. I'll also forward that to Aussie_Lurker

I'm thinking of fleshing out the build modifiers of the buildings a great deal based on traits but I may hold off on that.

I'll look at resource enhancements. Should marble vs stone be balanced?
And yes CN is set wrong in my opinion as well.

I'm also toying with building stops for units.
barracks for Melae/Infantry stables for cav/horse that type of thing shipyard for modern wessles (sorry had to throw in the obligatory star trek reference)
But those prob wont go in till after public release.
Going to use .7/.8/.9 to balance what we don't catch in the early rounds.

 

[Ket]

Oh yea im so tempted to remove the government civic effect. And nerf the Oracle's early tech....

 

[GRM7584]

The numbers seem about right, religions are founded on much "better" dates than vanilla while maintaining play balance. Most of the wonders seemed to come around at reasonable times; a continuing gripe of many players is the impossibility of a "historical" pyramids completion, which doesn't bother me over-much. One quickie way to make that possible without throwing off the game too much would be to make the Obelisk UB allow 1 engineer rather than 2 priests, but its a matter of taste. Apart from that, the only thing I disliked were the 'early' renaissance and onward buildings, but if its balanced for noble then that probably works out properly.

As for marble and stone: they probably should be slightly lopsided towards stone, as they are in vanilla, and which is what I based my ideas for "balancing" them with. The resource placement routines were probably scripted with vanilla's marble/stone wonder balance in mind, and warlords added both marble and stone type wonders, so it didn't change much for warlords.

For civics: Since a lot of them deal directly with resources, it really varies from game to game. +2 is a potentially hefty by-tile bonus for the ancient era, and it could increase determinism by starting position quite a lot. Moving slavery up to a different tech will help; moving oligarchy to a later tech would also help. And on the economy civics; since they are both "progressive" type civics, it should be a clear path for the player to pick one and then the other as they appear (I don't think any civilizations stuck with pure sustenance economies until the advent of banking, then skipped over using coinage straight into blocking foreign trade), so maybe it should be more like "barter: +10% gold" and "cash economy: +25% gold". Or the first two options could be redone.

Edit: Oracle's free tech is potentially overpowering in the hands of a human player, but not really a big deal usually. Its more of a "What? Why does a mumbling crazy lady give a free tech?" sort of deal. Having the Parthenon unlock all government civics isn't too over the top, but having more than one column that gives plusses to specialists gives it a lot of potential. I think it would be better to move oracle's effect somewhere else (if at all; and not too late, for obvious reasons), and maybe increase Parthenon's cost (or move the "all of this civic column" effect to a slightly later wonder). Reducing the diversity in wonder effects probably isn't a good idea, in terms of fun.

 

[Ket]

>One quickie way to make that possible without throwing off the game too much would be to make the Obelisk UB allow 1 engineer rather than 2 priests

Well there is allways the Great Wall Engineer Psudo Slingshot for Pyrimids.

If I lengthen the game out a bit and start at 5kBC it might be a more viable option. I really liked the flow of DearMad's New Balance Mod, which is where I got the idea for pushing cottage back to Monarchy. (As I think it should be)
But he does something to the early game to start it at 10kBC and its rather quick but it alligns the pyrmid a bit better. With my tech tree the way it is, I can easily slow down progression with some modifications to it.

Difficulty level is an interesting thing. What difficulty level do you balance for..... With the A.I. getting the tech boost, I think that if our time periods get close on prince/noble that we are in good shape. If the A.I. challanges you but is not blatently cheating we have done something very well.

I will look into the renisance buildings.
Aussie designed the civic system as a check and ballance system and also that most are useful. Not necessarly as a means to get to the next one.
I will have to look at them....

I know impaler is doing some code work on those area's... right now I can assign a building class to get a yield/commerce bonus/negitive based on civic choice (god I love the CCCP) I might use that after I play with it a bit.

None the less one thing I did notice is the OMFG I LOVE THIS CIVIC with
Oligarchy I found myself doing a playtest of my Unaltered Mod with promotions and with religious victory add ons getting ready for a release and wondering why I was not in Oligarchy... Considering im not using that civic model...in that mod, it did have a VERY defining effect.

I just added in (but have not placed yet)
War Dogs, Battering Ram, Bombard

Impaler is all for me, and has requested a few times, to take the free tech and move it back to Theory... He is right though so much of early game play is based on Oracle.

Stuff I want to look at...

Ziggurat of Marduk
Chichen Itza
Sistine Chapel
Versailles
Leonardo's Workshop
Taj
Springfield Armory

They looked a bit out of wack while others looked dead on, see if we can find if something is throwing renisance off a bit.

Springfield at 14ish...way to early. We did nerf the hell out of it. The effect that was on it wsa just to show that we could do it now and he wanted to create another wonder that did that.

I wish wiki was a bit better with oligarchy info....