Warmonger Penalty Analysis [Need some anecdotal input]

[Gabriel Pyyrhic]

Howdie All

I have been putting together an in depth look at the diplomatic AI and strategic AI of Civ V over the past few weeks. I did an analysis for Civ V vanilla last year and am seeking to update it for G and K.

I have completed most of it and am in the stages of writing it up and working out the kinks.

That said I am after some anecdotal input from regular players in regards to the warmonger penalty, which has proven harder to defintively quantify then in vanila. I think I have it worked out but want to test my theory against real world gameplay.

To be specific I need to know what peoples experiences are under the following conditions :
1. Your first DOW (not being DOWED)
2. Not part of a joint attack, or bribed by a civ to do it.

What I need to know is :
1. Did you get a warmonger penalty. (With all civs, or just some).
2. Is it the darkest colour.
3. Is it always the same colour on the first turn after the DOW (it will change overtime as the penalty fades). By this I mean did you ever receive a warmonger penalty that was a lighter colour on your first DOW.
4. If possible to record, how many turns until the warmonger penalty disappears assuming you DO NOT DOW in between. I realise this one may be asking to much for all you Civ V warmongers, but hopefully there is someone out there who can restrain themselves

Answer 1 and 2 (and possibly 4) will help me identify how the Warmonger hate flavour value is applied, as this one is stilll vexing me.
Answer 3 and 4 will tell me if my warmonger mechanic calculator (minus the hate flavour) works

After I get some responses (hopefully people will respond) I will let you know what I have come up with. I am kinda hoping everyone will say roughly the same thing or my theory is flawed.

I just don't have the time to run all of the tests I need for the analysis and so have had to deal with a limited number for testing all of the various AI mechanics. I would greatly appreciate it if the community could help me out on this one.

Please do add if you are providing a definite observation, or something remebered from gameplay so I know how to weigh the results.

Thanks to all who read, and any who respond. I do appreciate the consideration.

FYI The analysis comes from Logs, XML, LUA, my own LUA mods and gameplay.

NOTE : Perhaps this should be moved to Civ : General or Civ : G and K. I really didn't know where to put it. Can the MODS please place it where they think it should go.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

I'm assuming the "They believe you are a warmongering menace to the world" is the Warmonger penalty?

I can't help you with examples, now, but i'll try. Hopefully this will lead to mods that effect it.

On a related note, what's the status of modding the way AI react to you or adding new dialogue/diplomacy options?

 

[Txurce]

In my current game, I DoW'd a civ that had earlier DoW's me. I razed three of their cities, and then took their capital. I remained on good relations with all the other civs. No one gave me a warmonger penalty.

This struck me as unusual. It was late in the game, and the other cvs were Sweden, China, America, Greece and Carthage. The civ I attacked (Arabia) had been denounced by a couple of civs, but was not a pariah.

Anecdotally, I do get a penalty for taking a capital - usually from peacemongers like India and Arabia. I will keep tabs on my next games as well. And I always seem to get one for eliminating a civ.

 

[Patriotic_Fool]

I'll tell you the results of my next game

bump so all can see!

 

[Gabriel Pyyrhic]

@Jabberwocky
Yes thats correct.
Any observations you can make, with reference to the OP, are greatly appreciated.

Will have to get back to you on the modding, as I cannot speak for anyone else. I am more looking into how the game works then in changing it. I do wirte mods for the game, many in fact, but they are all designed to expose some hidden game mechanics here or there. Sorry wish I could be of greater help.

Once I work it out though I will be able to tell you how to make simple modifications to it easily enough, ie Reducing the penalty, how long it lasts, how tolerant each civ is individually etc. More complicated changes will require a dedicated MOD though. Personally I don't mind the game as it is, but I do understand many people do not like it so if I can help you with this I will. Please understand I have quite a few Civ projects on the boil ATM, not to mention life in general, so if for some reason you PM me or reply to a thread and I do not respond it will be because I have not had time to check it, rather then becuase I am ignoring you

@Txurce and Patriotic Foold (helpful bump BTW, I don't feel right bumping my own thraeds)
Thankyou for your assitance.

Txurce that was very helpful. The results are a complete pain, as it means I have more work to go, but helpful nonetheless

I am currently trying to work out the exact Metric being applied that modifes the base Warmonger Thresholds/Penalty that comes from the WARMONGER HATE diplomacy setting. Your post would seem to suggest that WH affects the likelihood of a warmonger penalty rather then the length of the penalty (although it could be both). Damn, why can't things be simple Thats progress anyway. I get almost no Civ time, except for testing, ATM so players examples are a great help

SO now I have to come up with a formula that takes a CIV WH and converts it to a WARMONGER THRESHOLD MULTIPLIER or a WARMONGER AFFECTOR.

ATM It works by giving each civ a Warmonger rating based upon its actions (DOWS, CS, CONQUERS etc). If that rating goes over value X, you get a MINOR WARMONGER PENALTY, if it goes over value Y you get a MAJOR WARMONGER penalty and so on. The warmonger rating then starts to decay, once peace is declared, by 5 points per turn (IIRC). So your rating then decays over time and until it disappears.

The WH either affects the THREASHOLD values, ie X become less or more, or the Warmonger Rating, ie it adds a fixed value etc. Not sure which yet.

If you do not mind, and you remember, could you see what colour those WARMONGER penalties were for the affected Civs. Theoretically, the colour should vary a bit, so long as the UI is up to representing the various THRESHOLD levels. To get definitive confirmation of this (particularly if it varies which it should) would be great.

FYI Your example also possibly highlights that the penalty for CONQUERING a CIV may actually be the penalty for taking their CAPITAL. As their is only one penlaty not related to a DOW, it will be good to know exaclty what it applies to ie city, capital or civ destruction. Vanilla had per city penalties, G and K does not seem to.

 

[Txurce]

I stole a worker early in a game from Greece, provoking a war. He made peace soon after, with no diplomatic repercussions. Then, after I expanded rapidly, he denounced me - at which point I received the Warmonger penalty in dark red. Soon after the same thing happened with Denmark. The Iroquois, with whom I had a DoF, were totally unaffected. About 30 turns later, the dark red shifted to light red. And quite a bit later, the end of a war with Denmark (about 100 turns later) led to the complete disappearance of the penalty.

 

[trexeric]

Mongolia was building up units at my border, so I declare war. I kill his invasion force. We make peace, and I get a warmonger penalty from him. Honestly, he is killing city state after city state, even France, and I'm a warmonger.

 

[Ookamikun]

As far as I have noticed, if you denounced someone, especially if that someone is universally hated, before you wage war, you won't get the warmonger effect.

 

[hudders]

As far as I have noticed, if you denounced someone, especially if that someone is universally hated, before you wage war, you won't get the warmonger effect.

I have to agree. After I denounced and declared war on Hiawatha, (because he's running away with the tech-lead), nobody labelled me a warmonger and some even joined in on the denouncing, (Arabia, England, Rome, Ethiopia). Even Persia, whom I am also at war with, did not label me a warmonger.

 

[MyImmortals]

I had an odd game where I rushed two civs early having met 4 total, one jumped in with me and I got "you have fought beside each other against a common enemy". I then became friends with both the remaining civs on my continent. I did not get a penalty until many turns later my army was small and they denounced me and the warmonger thing showed up, as well as the contested borders from the cities we capped. As well as "you were denounced by a civ who we like more".

That's some messed up diplomacy.

 

[apocalypse105]

The warmonger penalty is still the same you get a penalty for declaring and wiping out a civ..

So dowing 2 times or wiping a dciv out will make a lot of leaders angry..

The only difference know is that you will see the minor warmonger hate (if you dow 1 time)