Was this really necessary?

[EmpireOfCats]

It's a backhanded joke. Not the end of the world.

Let me write openly what some of us here are thinking: In my company, an international corporation, I'd very probably get fired for a stunt like this. Insulting the customer is not funny, it is not clever, and it simply not done. They pay your meals, they feed your family, they keep your kids in diapers. The customer is (a) god. You show him respect, or you find another place to work. Except with that attitude, not even McD's will want you.

In the Internet age, when Google Never Forgets and and blogs spread things like wildfires, it is beyond stupid. At the very least it is damaging to the brand, because it reeks of unprofessionalism. Just what kind of a shop do these people run? How did this slip past the copy editor or quality control? Do they even have quality control? What does this tell us about the quality of the code?

I hope nobody did get fired, obviously. I do hope they grow up, fast. Not the end of the world, no, but not trivial, either. This is not how you do serious business.

 

[StStutter]

Once again, its not an insult. I could think of all kinds of things to insult Americans in general whether they be true or not.

This statement was a joke. People could laugh at the mounties dumb pants, I wouldn't get offended. Noone is trying to say America is inferior. This would simply be untrue. They have the most powerful military and economy, and in civ terms would be winning the game at the moment.

Noones trying to say that Americans are bad at geography either. Many of you know all the states and capitals of the states. There is no inherent deficit in Americans' ability to learn geography.

However, there is a stereotype of Americans that they do not look outside their country as much as other nationalities do. Again, noone implied that this is true for EVERY american. Their geography and history lessons are much more focused on American history and geography. This stereotype is not racist, nationalist or any -ist. It is stereotyping a very specific kind of knowledge. It is the same as if I said Canadians are mostly liberal and don't know a thing about proper conservative values.

Secondly, people are able to laugh at the 'big brother' becuase noone actually believes they are inferior. Comedic TV shows are in general very sexist toward men. They often depict the lead character as a fat, stupid husband or father (a la Simpsons, King of Queens, etc.). They are allowed to do this, and the joke is considered funny not insulting because there is no historically sensitive issue brought up by this. A show depicting women as useless house cleaners who aren't allowed to vote would be insulting, because these memories are still fresh in people's minds.

And finally, are you personally offended by this statement? Because more than anything you seem to be offended because this statement could be considered offensive (which is the basis for the over emphasis on political correctness).

 

[sköldpadda]

This is funny because they're an American company. And it shouldn't be taken as serious business, it's a game. There's always been humor within the Civ games.

I'm an American, and I think it's funny. I think all of my friends with a sense of humor would think so, too. It's funny because it's so true.

 

[Johnny Be]

First allow me to agree that they shouldn't have put the definition like that. It was ill conceived, BUT it wasn't the end of the world.

Regarding your comment...

In the Internet age, when Google Never Forgets and and blogs spread things like wildfires, it is beyond stupid. At the very least it is damaging to the brand, because it reeks of unprofessionalism. Just what kind of a shop do these people run? How did this slip past the copy editor or quality control? Do they even have quality control? What does this tell us about the quality of the code?

IMO It doesn't' tell me nothing about the quality of the code. Companies aren't a single entity, they are different people. One guy mistake is not everyone's incompetence... Some times people make mistakes and has long has they acknowledge them and correct them there's no bit deal.

But more important to me...

They pay your meals, they feed your family, they keep your kids in diapers. The customer is (a) god.

I have a business, granted it's a small business, but I show respect IF people show me respect. I refuse to deal with stupid and rude people. I lose some money but money isn't the most important thing in the world. I don't know if you are american but I think this is a very american way of thinking (the almighty dollar ). Money has its uses for food, clothes and shelter, but after the basics there are LOTS of thing that are more important to me.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

All your historical references are moot.

Education, information, and history is taught, recorded, and presented according to ruling elite wishes.

That which is not wanted to be known will not be known. That which is desired to be known (even if it may not be true), will be as truth via multiple platforms of media and information dissemination.

 

[mjs0]

I have a business, granted it's a small business, but I show respect IF people show me respect. I refuse to deal with stupid and rude people. I lose some money but money isn't the most important thing in the world. I don't know if you are american but I think this is a very american way of thinking (the almighty dollar ). Money has its uses for food, clothes and shelter, but after the basics there are LOTS of thing that are more important to me.

This. A thousand times. This.

The customer is always king is an attitude that belongs in the same historical garbage can as <insert random historical injustice here>. (I'm not going to pick one because people invariably focus on whether the two are equivalent rather than the point of my post.)

My wife has a customer facing job and she has to deal with a lot of very arrogant people who feel they are entitled to absurd levels of customer service equivalent to groveling and bootlicking.
Guess what they are more trouble than they are worth so she focuses on the ones that will work with her and be reasonable. Unfortunately she doesn't work for herself so she doesn't have the latitude to do this all the time.

When you interact with a corporation you are typically interacting with other human beings (who deserve respect as the default) not the person making decisions. I am fed up with my wife coming home upset because some total jerk couldn't be bothered to learn how to balance a check book and thinks he has the right to verbally abuse her to make up for his failings...because 'the customer is always right'. Guess what that attitude gets you nowhere...it's those customers that show respect and understanding that get her attention and access to the limited power she has to reverse fees and charges.
Sorry...hot button for me, I'll go back to being mild mannered shortly.

 

[StStutter]

All your historical references are moot.

Education, information, and history is taught, recorded, and presented according to ruling elite wishes.

That which is not wanted to be known will not be known. That which is desired to be known (even if it may not be true), will be as truth via multiple platforms of media and information dissemination.

So what do we base our decisions on?

 

[brianshapiro]

I find that Europeans are not any less ignorant about history than Americans. The only reason they know geography a little better is because they need to because of where they live. Yea, and I doubt that the average Chinese person or African person knows a lot about European history.

Its not that saying Americans are ignorant is insulting, its just dumb... its idealizing every non-American country as some haven of enlightenment.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

So what do we base our decisions on?

I just like to throw that out there so everyone realizes that nothing is really all that concrete. I guess I try to lighten the air. Or open some minds.

Obviously, if you're going to have this kind of discussion, you need to go by what you have, right?

When you interact with a corporation you are typically interacting with other human beings (who deserve respect as the default) not the person making decisions. I am fed up with my wife coming home upset because some total jerk couldn't be bothered to learn how to balance a check book and thinks he has the right to verbally abuse her to make up for his failings...because 'the customer is always right'. Guess what that attitude gets you nowhere...it's those customers that show respect and understanding that get her attention and access to the limited power she has to reverse fees and charges.

While I believe in treating EVERYONE I talk to with as much respect as possible, your wife works for thieves, usurpers, usurers, and general bastards (if I'm right in assuming she works for a bank). When you get a job in customer service with the contract-crazy-usurer-bastard banks, you're going to be dealing with a lot of SERFS (that's what we really are) who think that they are actually free people and have been wronged. If these "customers" realized that they were really serfs, they probably wouldn't be giving your wife a hard time... they'd probably be cooking up a revolution .

 

[mjs0]

While I believe in treating EVERYONE I talk to with as much respect as possible, your wife works for thieves, usurpers, usurers, and general bastards (if I'm right in assuming she works for a bank). When you get a job in customer service with the contract-crazy-usurer-bastard banks, you're going to be dealing with a lot of SERFS (that's what we really are) who think that they are actually free people and have been wronged. If these "customers" realized that they were really serfs, they probably wouldn't be giving your wife a hard time... they'd probably be cooking up a revolution .

The point though is that all the rich bastards at the top are laughing while the serfs are yelling at other serfs. Those bonuses you heard about and the big money that was made didn't make it very far down the chain.

Yelling at the serfs in customer service roles is not going to change anything. All it does is make your situation worse, because the other serf who really wants to be your friend will ignore you and spend her time helping someone else.

There are people with legitimate complaints and she tries to help them, but there are also jerks.

The crazy thing is that she tries to teach these people...if you don't have the money and simply have to buy that lipstick at Walgreens just make one ATM withdrawal and spend cash then you will only get hit with one charge...but they keep using their debit card to spend $8 on this and $5 on that; then $3 here and $4 there and they get hit with 4 fees instead of one. I'm sorry but that is being willfully ignorant.

At the end of the day anyone (and there are several of these) who regularly overdraws their account two or three times in a week, who is told what the effect will be in fees and charges but who keeps coming back over the course of several weeks to claim they didn't know and demands their fees be refunded by yelling and making a scene is being a jerk and I have no sympathy for them.

(Well maybe a little sympathy...if the education system wasn't focused on preparing people for a life of unquestioning service in corporate America but focused instead on what people need to know in life (rather than pointless facts that 90%+ of the students will never use again) they might understand how to manage money and balance a cheque book, but they might also know enough to question their corporate overlords...and that would never do. )

Anyway I am veering way off topic here...my apologies, I'm still trying to go back to mild mannered...my point has been made by many...shooting the messengers (and the community managers) may be satisfying to some in the short term but it doesn't really achieve anything worthwhile, and probably does more harm than good as it sours the relationship with potential allies.

 

[PieceOfMind]

The notion of "customer is always right" is not really American I don't think. There is a big difference between intentionally or unintentionally offending some of your customers with objectionable comments and tolerating customers who are rude or arrogant to employees.

I'm surprised this discussion is even going on still. Obviously 2K considered it to be a mistake or in poor judgement because it was promptly removed.

Also, I had a massive deja vu reading Johnny Be's post. A brain fart I guess.

 

[evrett37]

The notion of "customer is always right" is not really American I don't think. There is a big difference between intentionally or unintentionally offending some of your customers with objectionable comments and tolerating customers who are rude or arrogant to employees.

I'm surprised this discussion is even going on still. Obviously 2K considered it to be a mistake or in poor judgement because it was promptly removed.

Also, I had a massive deja vu reading Johnny Be's post. A brain fart I guess.

Removed from the website but still in the civilopedia to provide "charecter"

 

[brianshapiro]

The point though is that all the rich bastards at the top are laughing while the serfs are yelling at other serfs. Those bonuses you heard about and the big money that was made didn't make it very far down the chain.

Yelling at the serfs in customer service roles is not going to change anything. All it does is make your situation worse, because the other serf who really wants to be your friend will ignore you and spend her time helping someone else.

There are people with legitimate complaints and she tries to help them, but there are also jerks.

The crazy thing is that she tries to teach these people...if you don't have the money and simply have to buy that lipstick at Walgreens just make one ATM withdrawal and spend cash then you will only get hit with one charge...but they keep using their debit card to spend $8 on this and $5 on that; then $3 here and $4 there and they get hit with 4 fees instead of one. I'm sorry but that is being willfully ignorant.

At the end of the day anyone (and there are several of these) who regularly overdraws their account two or three times in a week, who is told what the effect will be in fees and charges but who keeps coming back over the course of several weeks to claim they didn't know and demands their fees be refunded by yelling and making a scene is being a jerk and I have no sympathy for them.

(Well maybe a little sympathy...if the education system wasn't focused on preparing people for a life of unquestioning service in corporate America but focused instead on what people need to know in life (rather than pointless facts that 90%+ of the students will never use again) they might understand how to manage money and balance a cheque book, but they might also know enough to question their corporate overlords...and that would never do. )

Anyway I am veering way off topic here...my apologies, I'm still trying to go back to mild mannered...my point has been made by many...shooting the messengers (and the community managers) may be satisfying to some in the short term but it doesn't really achieve anything worthwhile, and probably does more harm than good as it sours the relationship with potential allies.

I think you're making this very complicated, you're frustrated with work, but you're treating the customers like the enemy and upper management like the enemy. The fact is, everyone is imperfect, and that includes the workers. I've worked in service and a lot of co-workers didn't really treat their job seriously and made it harder for those working with them, and for management, and for the customers. Eventually a customer will be so ticked off by what they experience generally with service workers, that they'll take it out on a worker that doesn't deserve it. Usually all they want is to be treated with respect. Management, in turn, can get upset at workers, and put them in all sorts of bad conditions out of frustration.

But really, getting along is in everyone's interest, including management. Happy workers in the end are good for a business that wants to exist in the long term.

At the political level, the problem today is just as much the fault of unions as its the fault of business. We get the worst of both worlds, a lot of the time, because both sides have their hand in politics. So, for instance, business wants free trade agreements, and ceding that issue, unions, worried about outsourcing jobs costing them their livelihood demand high benefits and more job security. Free trade makes it hard for workers, but union demands just pile on top of that, without solving the problem, and screw workers doubly.

So thats a result of both corruption and a divided political system in which different interests can control different sides. We need to get to a point just where there's mutual understanding and these things don't devolve into "us vs. them"

 

[mjs0]

I think you're making this very complicated, you're frustrated with work, but you're treating the customers like the enemy and upper management like the enemy. The fact is, everyone is imperfect, and that includes the workers. I've worked in service and a lot of co-workers didn't really treat their job seriously and made it harder for those working with them, and for management, and for the customers. Eventually a customer will be so ticked off by what they experience generally with service workers, that they'll take it out on a worker that doesn't deserve it. Usually all they want is to be treated with respect. Management, in turn, can get upset at workers, and put them in all sorts of bad conditions out of frustration.

But really, getting along is in everyone's interest, including management. Happy workers in the end are good for a business that wants to exist in the long term.

At the political level, the problem today is just as much the fault of unions as its the fault of business. We get the worst of both worlds, a lot of the time, because both sides have their hand in politics. So, for instance, business wants free trade agreements, and ceding that issue, unions, worried about outsourcing jobs costing them their livelihood demand high benefits and more job security. Free trade makes it hard for workers, but union demands just pile on top of that, without solving the problem, and screw workers doubly.

So thats a result of both corruption and a divided political system in which different interests can control different sides. We need to get to a point just where there's mutual understanding and these things don't devolve into "us vs. them"

I agree with much of what you say especially the issues with politics, but I would like to make a couple of points.
I have no frustrations with my work...I enjoy what I do (gathering and analysing my client's requirements and then designing and writing code to address their needs) it is the effect I observe on others that work in support roles that I dislike.
I think you are distorting things slightly with the line 'treating the customers like the enemy'. I cannot accept this, my wife (whose experiences I was discussing) wants to help everyone, but some of them treat her as the enemy rather than a (somewhat) powerless cog in a large machine who will help them if she can. The sense of entitlement, combined with a self-centered and aggressively demanding attitude from those individuals rather than a reasonable work-together-to-solve-it attitude is the problem and dealing with that clearly takes its toll.

I'm also not going to let upper management off the hook that easily; along with increased rewards comes increased responsibility.
The job of the customer facing staff is made a lot more difficult when edicts come down from on high that basically tell the staff not to mention viable, and often legally-mandated, options that would help a customer unless the customer explicitly asks for that remedy...under threat of dismissal. I am aware of this happening at another bank (not my wife's fortunately) and to a friend working a cell company's call center.

Finally I want to call out this sentence: Happy workers in the end are good for a business that wants to exist in the long term.
Unfortunately this only makes sense if upper management is incented to see that the business is successful in the long term, but the fact is that most are not. They are given short term incentives that provide large bonuses for immediate results and little reason to cultivate happy employees or make solid decisions for the long term since most will be gone and on to new pastures before the true effects of their 'strategy' are felt.
Personally I suspect the main reason for this short-termism is a change in investing philosophy. Fewer individual investors are buying stocks as long term investments, they are looking for quick returns and then to move on to another opportunity quickly. This naturally leads to compensation packages for executives that provide large rewards for short term gains but little incentive to think long term.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Removed from the website but still in the civilopedia to provide "charecter"

If I were a gambling man, I'd say, "Willing to put money on that?"

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Unfortunately she doesn't work for herself so she doesn't have the latitude to do this all the time.

And this is the point about the lucky gentleman further up who has his own company and can decide to give his rude customers as good as he gets. International corporations have little patience for this, because their shareholders have little patience for this -- they want to see the money and simply don't care if your feelings are getting hurt.

But this is not what we were talking about. We were talking about company people being rude to customers for no good reason, not customers being rude to company people. And I still say that is a no-no, regardless of how large your shop is.

 

[tom2050]

Perhaps this was the real reason the 20 Firaxis employees got canned. <shrug> ?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The point though is that all the rich bastards at the top are laughing while the serfs are yelling at other serfs. Those bonuses you heard about and the big money that was made didn't make it very far down the chain....

Too true... too true.

Serf on serf aggression will never solve our universal plight of serfdom at the hands of the bankers

Good call, mjs0. However, I gotta say that more often than not, I'm speaking to a veritable robot on the other end of the phone when I get ANY kind of "customer service" at a major corporate institution. The complete emotionless-ness is an inevitable byproduct of the work atmosphere.

I'm just saying, if you work cust. service for a major corp (bank especially), you GOTTA expect angry and upset people calling up.

 

[anhalibut]

Evil americans copied a non-written iroqui constitution?

My understanding is that the American colonists and Eurpeans admired the Iroquois constitution for being a pure/natural government. Their thinking was along the lines of the Iroquois were similar to our ancient ancestors and therefore their government was similar to the very first government ever created, therefore their government was more "pure" and "natural" because it filled a vital, natural need in the community.

Any copying was done in admiration.

 

[brianshapiro]

My understanding is that the American colonists and Eurpeans admired the Iroquois constitution for being a pure/natural government. Their thinking was along the lines of the Iroquois were similar to our ancient ancestors and therefore their government was similar to the very first government ever created, therefore their government was more "pure" and "natural" because it filled a vital, natural need in the community.

Any copying was done in admiration.

I would believe the Iroquois were admired for making a Constitution. Its still a stretch though, to say something was copied.

If anyone wants to judge for themselves:
http://tuscaroras.com/pages/history/iroquois_constitution_1.html