Washington on Emperor puttering out

King Younk

Warlord
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
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Chicago
Or perhaps it never really was.

I am in the middle of a game as Washington where I built the Pyramids and Great Wall, and took the continent along with a holy city from Mansa Musa, but fell far behind my opponents in tech, and now don't think I can catch up.

I should have built the shrine sooner, but wasn't able to get a Great Prophet to do so.

I'm wondering if y'all have any further comments on my game and where I went wrong.
 

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Welcome to the forum!

First off, you are playing Huge/mara. I don't play those settings and those settings do present some unique factors. But what I do know is it does you no favors playing Huge/mara while learning the game, and you have a lot to learn here. In addition, for perspective, even on normal settings, your situation ..relatively speaking ...is far behind where you should be..but for mara that state would be even more pronounced. You are not in the "middle of the game" but very much in the late stages.

Settings aside, it appears you rolled a Fractal type map. Shuffle I believe is simply random mapmode that randomly chooses one of the various standard maps like fractal, pangaea, archipeligo, etc. You appear to have started in a semi-iso situation with Mansa Musa, who should be noted as one of the most unique characters in the game - more on that in a bit. Iso and semi-iso situations produce unique challenges in themselves that often require particular strategies.

One of the key factors of semi-iso generally is that you obviously only know one AI for quite some time. How you handle that AI may depend a good bit on who he/she is. But further on this key factor is that tech trading with that AI is almost a non-factor until other AIs are known. This slows things down for the human considerably. However, Mansa is unique in that he is the only one who trades with anybody regardless of the situation.

Point is, in a semi-iso situation, I might highly consider keeping the generally pacifist leader around for tech trading purposes and to have foreign trade routes available. This allows you to tech with more purpose and judiciously to set up tech trades, while, in this case, getting to Optics asap to go out a meet the world.

Anyway, that just an initial observation of your particular game. I would not call semi-iso necessarily rare, especially if you play Fractal maps often (which I actually do). But the above observations don't really help you learn the game from a basic standpoint.

As to your game itself, you are in a bit of a pickle. You appear to be playing without purpose here, which is not a criticism per se, and actually quite common for less experienced players. You are indeed very behind in tech. There may be some ways to remedy the situation, but in my honest opinion, I don't think that does you much good in terms of improving your gameplay...which leads to a very important concept I want to impress on you here:

The early game is the most important aspect of civ4. This is the area you really need to improve on right now. Once you do you can build off that progress.

Before I make my final recommendation to you, I will point out a few observations/flaws on the current state of your game:

1) Your civics are poor right now. Nationalism makes no sense right now if you are not actually using it for any purpose. In most cases, you will be in Bureaucracy as soon as you reach Civil Service and likely much of the game after, except maybe temporary switches to civics like Vassalage or Nationalism for army buildup in expectation of killing someone. Nationalism is mainly used for drafting

Mercantilism is really bad and denies you lucrative foreign trade routes, especially considering that all of your foreign trade routes are overseas and therefore more lucrative. Merc is something you might run temporarily in a Golden age for producing great people Same with Pacifism, which is a great civic if you have religion spread and run a golden age. Not terribly wrong to be in it, but you are not really using it either and it makes all those many units you have - for no purpose - more expensive.

2) Your economy on the other hand is not particularly bad. You make over 300 gold per turn (GPT) at 0% research. But you have so many useless units built. 36 Longbows! ..ha..there is no reason for that. Other than city MP..a unit in each city for happiness, you don't really need an army unless you plan to go to war '

3) Holy Shrine is not a reason for your failure here. In a majority of my games,regardless of whether I capture holy cities, or even founded my own at some point, I rarely have holy shrines. It's nice mind you, but it is not a major factor in success.

4) Not sure Great Wall was a good thing here. Mids is great and with stone no doubt I would go for that, but building GW in that city polluted that gene pool. Looks like you produced at least 3 Gspies which did you know favors here (unless you kept Mansa alive and used them for EP missions and stole a bunch of techs. That is a feasible approach on some levels but a much more advanced concept for you at this stage) Point that is you want to be producing Great Scientists early/mid-game and great merchants late game.

Anyway just a few observations there to take away but most of that is not what you need right now.

What I recommend is playing normal settings and maps. I would recommend normal speed/standard size with no huts/events and, for now, Pangaea maps. Pangaea maps I found more helpful for learning as you are presented with Diplo aspects earlier. It's just a given that your are going to meet most or all of the AIs very early in the game.

Play a shadow game here in this forum and get advice from the very start of the game ..turn 0. I assure you that just doing that a couple of time, even if only focusing on the first 100 turns or so of the game here, will totally change your perspective on how you play this game and lead to far more success for you. Basically a ground up approach.
 
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Alright, I'll start a new game, but I'm going to do Marathon, Huge, and Random. I don't like the feel of the game knowing what map I'm playing on, unless it's an Earth map.

Ok, let's see....

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Did random and came up with Monty. I know the general consensus on him is to get Oracle and CoL, but seeing as I have stone right here, I'm going to do Masonry for Pyramids/GW, then Mining-BW, Beeline to Pottery, then Iron Working. Soon thereafter I will go to CoL for the UB.

I remember that I should focus on food and granaries, since I will be whipping a lot of slaves.

I will check in in about 50 turns, maybe sooner.
 
Got a goody hut with Masonry on my 4th turn. Now I'll go for Wheel, BW, then Pottery so I can build the GW, Pyramids, build granaries, and build my economy asap with cottages.

Another goody hut yielded animal husbandry on my 14th turn.
 
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Given my good fortune getting stone, mysticism, and masonry within the first 5 turns, I decided to go for a trifecta of wonders (Stonehenge, GW, and Pyramids) followed by a buildup of my economy, CoL, 3-5 cities capable of building a military, barracks in all cities, and to run police state to crush a neighbor or two, whipping out Jaguars all the way.
 
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Got the Pyramids, now running Hereditary Rule and Slavery. Will do so until I have a few cities, then switch over to police state. Focused on building cottages, since I spent all that time on the Wonders.
 
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Ok, just attacked Pericles's newly captured barbarian city on my border, which triggered Roosevelt against me. Not too concerned, as I can whip the military I need in a hurry, but this might cause some long term damage to relations. I'm going to stop playing here, and will come back in about 8-10 hours.

What do yall think? I've included the save on this one.
 

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I would suggest expanding more in the early game before focusing on wonders. I'm not sure what the comparison is on marathon, but a common goal on standard speed maps is three cities + three workers before turn 50. On Emperor especially you should still be perfectly safe to go for Pyramids after expanding a little bit. This lets you focus on expanding and building up your empire/commerce with two of your cities, while the other one could build pyramids or whatever wonder you want.

Speaking of wonders, I would be careful with how many you go far. Some are just really not that strong in most situations. For instance in your game I would much rather have Pyramids + 4-5 cities versus pyramids, great wall, and stonehenge. If my goal was to crush my neighbour early with jaguar, I would probably skip mids altogether and just rapid expand and go for it.

p.s. if you do build pyramids, the Representation civic will do a lot more for you than hereditary rule. This is the main reason people like to build mids. It makes specialists incredibly strong and gives our five largest cities +3 :c5happy:, which allows us to build up our empire early on when happiness resources are limited.
 
What are mids?

Thanks for the tip. I wouldn't have geeked out on wonders, but I had stone in the tile next to my capital, so I figured I should - to get the synergy of spiritual and the Pyramids if for no other reason.
 
Mids is just short for pyramids. And stone does indeed make wonders tempting, but ultimately land is the real goal. We want to expand our empire as much as we can without overly crushing our economy, whether this is through war or just peaceful expansion. Wonders can really slow down expansion, so it's generally best to avoid them unless they offer us something we desperately need. There's nothing wrong with going for pyramids here, but I probably wouldn't have bothered with the great wall or stonehenge. You also really want to settle a few cities before going for Pyramids to improve your production and commerce/research. With a bit more teching power you could reach Bronze Working a lot earlier, and then build the pyramids even faster since your workers can chop the forests for extra :hammers:.

Really you just want to focus on the big picture. What would help you more at turn 112, the great wall preventing barbarians from entering your territory, or 2-3 additional cities each pumping out workers, warriors, settlers, and contributing to your research?
 
What do yall think? I've included the save on this one.
Well, you've rushed to T253 without waiting for any input. There is tons of room for improvement which is clear already from the first screenshot. Looking at the abundance of improvements and roads in your capital area, don't you think it would've been better to expand to more cities much earlier? Are Mids really doing you that much good?
 
Well, you've rushed to T253 without waiting for any input. There is tons of room for improvement which is clear already from the first screenshot. Looking at the abundance of improvements and roads in your capital area, don't you think it would've been better to expand to more cities much earlier? Are Mids really doing you that much good?
I think they will. I did so because 1) I had stone right next to my capital city and 2) I am a spiritual Civ, so I can capitalize on this in a major way over the course of the game. I probably shouldn't have gone for GW or Stonehenge though, I now realize.

I literally had Masonry on turn 4 from a goody hut. There was no way I couldn't go for mids.

What should I do now?
 
Oh they certainly WILL, but that's not really what I asked. :) I was just hinting that right now they do nothing for you, therefore you could've settled some cities first.
What should I do now?
Well, the standard answer would be "start again", but I don't think that's the answer you are looking for. Defend your land, try to get off wars and expand.
 
Ha...well, pretty much all my recommendations were ignored (I say this neutrally..just stating the obvious). But at least you attempted to start a new game for advice, albeit not quite what I had in mind. As sampsa pointed out, you have bulled forward well into your game. What we talk about with shadow games is advice from Turn 0 and play small turnsets...stop..discuss..questions...plan.

I'll make this clear - you have a ton of stuff to learn. You will totally change how you play the game. I suspect maybe you have played civ4 for a while now on your own and in your own way. Which, of course, is fine. Play how you want. However, if you want to learn how to excel at the game, then I encourage you to listen to all the advice here from the good folks on this forum and really try to establish a focused shadow game for learning. I'm talkin' tabula rasa here. Completely wipe your mind of all the preconceived concepts you have about the game and any habits you have developed.

I'm not going to go into a lot of detail on huge/mara and why I don't like it or why it is not great for learning, but will point out that most here play with normal settings and with no huts/events (which are very much not good for learning). Play however you wish on your own, but I highly highly encourage you to play normal speed/normal size Pangaea maps with no huts/events while running a shadow game here. Strictly view this game as a learning tool. Once we establish the basics...a foundation.. and maybe some advanced concepts, then play however you want on your own. But I assure you that normal settings make for a very satisfying game..
 
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Posting a link below to BUG/BULL mods:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/download-bug-and-bat-here.274636/


Highly recommend this for improved UI and stuff...non-game changing. Most use it here. Just install in Single Player Mode (Custom assets) and you don't even have to load it..it just there..and saves are compatible. You can also find Blue Marble under inside there as well for improved terrain graphics (can also change the color of your UI). BAT is another great mod you can find in there which I use for most of my games...combines BUG/BULL and graphics stuff in one nice package. (BAT is standalone so it needs to be loaded and only players with that mod can open your saves)
 
Huge/Mara is bad for learning simply because its too big a game. It is always best to learn playing on a small scale. That helps to get into details and learn how things actually work. On the other hand, when playing big it inevitably becomes difficult just to keep track of things. Speaking as someone who plays marathon and large maps I can say that you expand too slowly. By turn 253 you ought to aim at 40 cities, not 4. Especially on Emperor, where it is much easier to conquer AI than on Deity, and the maintenance does not get too severe too early.
 
New game now. I'm Ramesses II on his own little island with a fudgton of Gold everywhere. I'm trying to build 3 settlers by turn 200, but since I'm Ramesses, I gotta get 'mids and G-Dub.

Portugal already extorted me once. I have Iron close, so I'll start building military with the third city I'm about to build.

I'm not going to wait for your advice, lol, though it would be appreciated.

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If you are building Mids for the sake of roleplay than what kind of advice you expect? Still, Memphis is a very poor 2nd city. Seek to settle best spots first. That means good food in first ring and, ideally, with some other good stuff. Pigs+Iron city would have been perfect.

Don't waste workerturns, build useful improvements. For example, Memphis could do with a farm. That would be much more use than roads over hills.

No idea why you had to research IW that early - it's not like there is any serious threat. There are more important techs at ths stage of the game, like Pottery or Writing. You probably have a chance to build the GLH, which is about the most useful wonder when nearly all of your cities are coastal ones.

Do you play with barbs? If you do then building a few warriors for spawnbust is a great idea.
 
I think Memphis needed your capital to build a workboat. I guess whip settler for 2 pop. Slower growth on this speed.

I agree pigs would of offered a more easier resource to improve. Especially with iron nearby.

Looking at culture map you can see Roman/Babylonian culture nearby. If your not careful they will be settling your land. Your expansion here seems really slow. Any reason you are not chopping more? Those flood plains must of taken an age to farm. You have still not secured your second sea resource.

GW is not terrible but faster expansion would of seen much less barb issues negating need for GW. 50% bonus is nice for wonders. A great spy on this level will have less impact as AI tech slower.

On an island map GLH is very important. That was way more important than GW. Maybe too late? You need more cities right now.
 
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