Water maps - traits synergy

[vale]

I'm worried only 4 people realize earlier great people outweighs production bonuses for lighthouses. Get to Astronomy sooner. Liberalism. Civil Service. Everything which is a prerequisite for success on a water map. Clearly Philosophical > Organized.

I love how traits in your mind are only a single building discount.

Oh, Organized = cheap lighthouse only = worthless.
Expansive = cheap granaries only = worthless.

Psst, they both have passive effects that can be pretty useful on this type of map. Plus they both have other discounted buildings that will be useful in their own right.

I also love how CS is critical for success on a water map. Because coastal capitals are just that good? Or is it to spread irrigation that is non-existent on like 90% of the land masses? Sure Bureaucracy is going to be a boost, but not nearly the boost that (for instance) Hereditary Rule will be.

What does Liberalism unlock that is so uber-critical by the way? Free speech? Free religion? Is it just the free tech? Which free tech? Sure it is nice to win the liberalism race, but I would say Liberalism would be less important on this map type than on a map type where you have potentially vast expanses of cottaged terrain and where cultural borders play a large role.

As for Expansive's "earlier" Granaries, are we really going to claim that whipping one less population unit on a map filled with seafood is going to overcome the benefits of either Financial or Philosophical? Really Vale?

It doesn't have to, because unlike financial, cheap granaries is not the only benefit of the trait. We will both be scrambling for health the entire game because of the map type, the only difference is I will be scrambling slightly less because of the health boost and cheaper harbors. Also, I believe I sold short the worker production bonus thing a little bit earlier. Guess what we won't be stealing early this game? That means if we want to chop out a certain wonder we are prioritizing, we will have to build/whip a worker or two ourselves. Every little bit helps. And if you miss the GLH because you had to spend 60 hammers on the lighthouse and an extra turn before you could whip the worker, I can 1000% guarantee you I will beat you to all those "critical" water map techs.

One more person is, what, 10 turns or so?

Depends on the game speed and how much food you have in that city. And it's 2 more people if you are whipping seeing as how you would have to be population 4 before you could 2 pop-whip.

I can see your grounds for the argument, but not that it overcomes earlier great people or, my god, an extra commerce on the majority of your empire's tiles for the entire game.

I'll definitely take working significantly more tiles over the course of the game over working slightly better tiles or getting faster GPP and it really isn't even close. I will be working more tiles because I will have more cities seeing as how I can get them productive much quicker.

Claiming that Financial is less valuable on a water map because you're more likely to work food and hammer tiles since its hammer-poor sounds daft. I guess on a regular map you work more commerce tiles since the hammers would be so easy to come by if you tried?

Wow, this is a moronic statement (or should I say daft). On a land based map of course you have to prioritize commerce (or specialists) more heavily in the tiles you work since you don't get it for free. The math is trivial:

Compare:
Internal trade routes once currency is in on the water map: 8 commerce per turn at size 1
External trade routes with a harbor and currency: ~16 commerce per turn

With:
Internal trade routes once currency is in on a land map: 2 commerce per turn

What is so hard to understand about the fact that relative to production we will be rolling in commerce. Between the huge boost to trade routes and the automatic commerce we generate from working our seafood tiles, it is hard to justify working a coastal tile when there is a good production tile available. Not only that but on this type of map the production burden is heavier than on a land map with the added necessity of a navy, lighthouses and work boats. So yes, production has to be prioritized over commerce. So having critical buildings be trait cheapened is more important than on a land based map.

 

[Tboy]

Trait-wise financial is a must, and organised and industrious are also good.

Civ-wise, I'd go for the Dutch every time, for the following reasons:

1.Financial boosts those coastal plots.
2.Naval UU.
3.The UB, the dike, rockets production in the late game.

 

[grandad1982]

Finacial as those sea tiles might as well work harder for you.

Organised for cheap lighthouses - food - and courthouses - cheaper expansion costs.

A strong option for second IMO is industrious so you can increase your chances of grabbing TGL and the big bronze guy. Also the cheap forges help out on production poor maps.

 

[CivCorpse]

I love how traits in your mind are only a single building discount.




It doesn't have to, because unlike financial, cheap granaries is not the only benefit of the trait. We will both be scrambling for health the entire game because of the map type, the only difference is I will be scrambling slightly less because of the health boost and cheaper harbors. Also, I believe I sold short the worker production bonus thing a little bit earlier. Guess what we won't be stealing early this game? That means if we want to chop out a certain wonder we are prioritizing, we will have to build/whip a worker or two ourselves. Every little bit helps. And if you miss the GLH because you had to spend 60 hammers on the lighthouse and an extra turn before you could whip the worker, I can 1000% guarantee you I will beat you to all those "critical" water map techs.

Assuming identical starts. Industrious has the advantage. You save a LOT more hammers with the discount to the GLH than you will save as Expansive on a worker or Organized with a cheap lighthouse. Even combined. So if you lose the GLH race to and industrious civ. Or to one with a better starting position, where does this trade route income arrive from? Now you're working water tiles like everyone else. No other wonder is that dominant on a particular map type. The closest thing is probably the GW on a marthon/huge map with raging barbs. Barbs are a nightmare on those maps even if they're not "raging". Fog busting can wreck your economy through unit upkeep. And it is cheap hammer wise compared to what you spend on antibarb units.

 

[Gliese 581]

The description of the map was "archipelago, islands", doesn't sound like there will be many land tiles to me.

 

[vale]

Assuming identical starts. Industrious has the advantage. You save a LOT more hammers with the discount to the GLH than you will save as Expansive on a worker or Organized with a cheap lighthouse. Even combined.

Yes you save more hammers there (68 hammers vs ~42 hammers depending on the tiles worked to build/whip the worker). There are other issues (saving hammers on the worker means it comes out slightly faster which means mines are up earlier, forests ready to be chopped earlier). However, Expansive and Organized keep paying off with your future cities. Honestly, once you get the GLH, you don't need to build another wonder ever. Hanging Gardens would be nice to pick up as it synergizes nicely with the need for health and the aggressive REXing. But it isn't critical.

So if you lose the GLH race to and industrious civ.

I won't lose it vs. an AI.

Or to one with a better starting position

I won't lose it vs. an AI.

Where does this trade route income arrive from?

From the Great Lighthouse.

Now you're working water tiles like everyone else.

No I'm not because I am not going to lose it.

No other wonder is that dominant on a particular map type. The closest thing is probably the GW on a marthon/huge map with raging barbs. Barbs are a nightmare on those maps even if they're not "raging". Fog busting can wreck your economy through unit upkeep. And it is cheap hammer wise compared to what you spend on antibarb units.

Yes, there is nothing as dominant for a map type as GLH.

 

[Gliese 581]

There are other advantages to being industrous. On these types of maps you'll more frequently be isolated which means pyramids is great and you are less pressed for time with rexing. There's the possibility of going for a WE, if you manage to set it up with priests and engineers spawning your capital will have an unbeatable production (not that you need much help on these kinds of maps against an AI).

 

[Bleys]

Honestly, once you get the GLH, you don't need to build another wonder ever. Hanging Gardens would be nice to pick up as it synergizes nicely with the need for health and the aggressive REXing. But it isn't critical.

With EXP, even the HGs is unnecessary, the cheap Harbors and Granaries (plus the trait bonus itself) take care of most of your health needs. I never even built any Aquaducts in that Bismark game, by the time I needed health, Grocers were available, but then again, the game was over long before I had any need to raise my populations above 20.

I have also noticed on watery maps that the health resources are generally plentiful, while happy/calendar resources are the ones that can be hard to get, All the seafood are health, and corn, wheat, rice, etc, are usually in strong supply, while dye, incense, and such is what is usually sparse, or even only on a single island that you dont own. This seems true of many map styles with largish islands, just look at the past 10 LHCs, you will notice a trend, lots of health, hardly any happiness.

But for the record, I like IND for more than just the GLH. I want fast Forges to help my whips and chops, and later, once I have that tech lead that my TRE has generated, I want the mid-late game Wonders cheaper, not because I may lose them, but purely for speed in building them.

 

[vale]

WE is hard to get off the ground with a minimal amount of forests and hills. Also your bonus resources are very unlikely to be present if you are in isolation. Given the pollution the GLH adds to the pool, there is no guarantee of creating a super production capital with prophets and engineers.

I'm not so sure how good the Pyramids are going to be on this map. There are a ton of hammers needed even with industrious (200 with stone, 334 without stone and you probably won't have stone). Plus, you almost surely chopped every forest you had getting the GLH so those are hammers your city will have to generate all by itself with whipping and hammer tiles. Add that to the low production/high commerce environment and teching Monarchy the old fashioned way doesn't seem so crazy (or Oracling it).

Even in isolation REXing is the way to go because those cities pay for themselves very quickly (9 commerce a turn from the center tile and trade routes alone). Add in a cheap granary, lighthouse, and courthouse and it will quickly be a very profitable city. Add to that any production it can take care of for you empire and you have to work very hard to hurt yourself by REXing.

 

[Diamondeye]

I have to say that I agree completely with Vale and can't see the point of arguing against him in favor of traits as Industrious...

 

[Gliese 581]

Well I think we have to make up our mind here, is it a reasonable amount of land but say 50% coast/ocean or is it tiny islands with 75% say ocean/coast tiles?
In the former there's going to be some production to be had, certainly enough for a successfull WE depending on start location. In the latter I think financial is the obviously best trait and colossus a killer wonder. You need a forge for the colossus and industrous helps proudction on both this and the wonder.
Industrous is also good for getting all those expensive national wonders in a more reasonable time frame such as the GT.
Whipping can be done on regular buildings with overflow to wonders, there will be more time to complete them and micromanage such things but the time saved on producing them can be significant with industrous.
I agree that organized and expansive can both be very strong traits for archipelago and that they could certainly replace industrous, I guess it's a matter of taste.
Financial is still an obvious best trait here for me however.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I have to say that I agree completely with Vale and can't see the point of arguing against him in favor of traits as Industrious...

As humorous side note:

If you agree completely with him, of course you can't see the point of arguing against him. Otherwise you wouldn't agree completely.

 

[Iranon]

There is another reason why I cherish IND on this type of map: It is often hard to impossible to interfere with runaways on the other end of the map.

There are 2 easy ways to slow down AIs you have never met:
1. Hog wonders. The AIs seem to gain quite a lot from them
2. Don't hog religions. You don't want a lovey-dovey trade club elsewhere.

Above Emperor, I'd probably have to cherry pick wonders instead of spamming them, but I don't win Immortal consistently anyway.

 

[MrCynical]

Financial is an obvious pick to improve the large number of coastal tiles you're going to end up with on an archipelago map. Works particularly well with the Colossus as it then boosts ocean as well.

The only other one which has an obvious synergy with archipelago maps is Organized. Lighthouses are crucial on this map type, and often have to be built in very hammer and (pre-lighthouse) food poor areas. Courthouses are also still important, and often harder to build on low land maps. Factories again are improtant to boost what hammers you have, and run engineers.

I'm worried only 4 people realize earlier great people outweighs production bonuses for lighthouses. Get to Astronomy sooner. Liberalism. Civil Service. Everything which is a prerequisite for success on a water map. Clearly Philosophical > Organized.

The question was about synergy. I'd probably favour Philosophical on any map, but it is not more powerful than usual on an archipelago. Organized on the other hand is considerably more useful than on the average map.

Small point - Astronomy is somewhat overrated on Archipelago maps. The way the map script works it is often possible to access virtually all of the map pre-optics. You don't have the huge open oceans you get on e.g continents, they get filled with small islands, and you can usually island hop with galleys around most of the map. Again, that's not to say Astronomy isn't useful (you can take more direct routes), but it isn't at its best on Archipelago (compared to say Terra).

 

[Harry Potter52]

Financial.. I do not need to give reasons
Expansive as the health costs are important and due to limited land available, you need to get maximum food from water resources.

 

[CivCorpse]

OK, for Civ V i want Atlantis as a civ. Neptune is the leader. Traits are Aquatic/Maritime. Aquatic gives +1 food from water tiles and maritime gives +3commerce from water tiles. The UB is the aquarium which grants +3 population because fish are people too. And the UU is the mermaid/merman which replaces pikemen (they use tridents) they can travel on coastal tiles without a ship and ignore defenses of coastal cities

 

[slobberinbear]

I'm glad financial was obvious.

I'm worried only 4 people realize earlier great people outweighs production bonuses for lighthouses. Get to Astronomy sooner. Liberalism. Civil Service. Everything which is a prerequisite for success on a water map. Clearly Philosophical > Organized.

As for Expansive's "earlier" Granaries, are we really going to claim that whipping one less population unit on a map filled with seafood is going to overcome the benefits of either Financial or Philosophical? Really Vale? One more person is, what, 10 turns or so? I can see your grounds for the argument, but not that it overcomes earlier great people or, my god, an extra commerce on the majority of your empire's tiles for the entire game. Claiming that Financial is less valuable on a water map because you're more likely to work food and hammer tiles since its hammer-poor sounds daft. I guess on a regular map you work more commerce tiles since the hammers would be so easy to come by if you tried?

I'm with you. I will add that it's harder to do a CE on water maps as there are not huge tracts of cottageable land. With lots of Seafood, Financial mutliplies the commerce and Philsophical supercharges the SE.

Go Liz!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

OK, for Civ V i want Atlantis as a civ. Neptune is the leader. Traits are Aquatic/Maritime. Aquatic gives +1 food from water tiles and maritime gives +3commerce from water tiles. The UB is the aquarium which grants +3 population because fish are people too. And the UU is the mermaid/merman which replaces pikemen (they use tridents) they can travel on coastal tiles without a ship and ignore defenses of coastal cities

That sounds very...balanced.

Suddenly Rome and Inca would suck.

 

[futurehermit]

Industrious + Organized

If I get the GLH, the game is in the bag; Colossus also helps mimic the effects of financial for the crucial period of the game

Honorable mentions:

-Expansive: Cheap harbors
-Financial

 

[siggboy]

Organized is clutch here.

I take Expansive rather than Industrious or Financial as my secondary trait. There are several reasons:

I like your reasoning and I'm with you as far as Expansive is concerned.

I've picked Industrious as my second trait because:

• Low hammer environment means we might not be able to find a good city for wonder spam early, or at all
• Losing the race to the Great Lighthouse is a no-no, and being Industrious gives us a lot of additional leeway there
• Lots of food calls for lots of specialists so we want the Pyramids
• Colossus becomes really cheap because the Forge is accelerated by Industrious as well
• Cheap Oracle for an easy MC slingshot

Generally spamming wonders or building a wonder capital is very attractive on water maps.

Financial seems "obvious" but I think many people here overrate it for water maps. I've had a lot of success on water maps and never played a Financial leader in the games that I remember. The Great Lighthouse has always been the key to winning and Financial does nothing for trade income. I rate Organized higher than Financial here.