"We love Justinian day" - A celebration of Cataphracts (emp challenge)
- Thread starter elitetroops
- Start date
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Wow! 1AD sounds great. If the cataphracts obsolete around 1000AD, like FlyingSwan said, they will rule the world for 1000 years!
Once I've reached Guilds in my game, at a date that probably will pale in comparison to yours, I must study your saves to see how you did it!
Once I've reached Guilds in my game, at a date that probably will pale in comparison to yours, I must study your saves to see how you did it!
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
I play on lower difficulties, and my style is generally quite peaceful, but I still find myself fighting the neighbours for good city sites, long before knights.
So, since you can't attack, I would recommend you need to be at war with your closest neighbours, and get a couple of archers or chariots to any good city sites. That might delay them if they're planning to settle there - they will have to build maybe twice the escort for their settler. Also prevents the sites from spawning barb cities which could be disastrous.
So, since you can't attack, I would recommend you need to be at war with your closest neighbours, and get a couple of archers or chariots to any good city sites. That might delay them if they're planning to settle there - they will have to build maybe twice the escort for their settler. Also prevents the sites from spawning barb cities which could be disastrous.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Remember you can see worked tiles outside the city screen: their yields appear bigger than non-worked tiles. Some tiles you want to see worked.
It is very handy for Empire management as it helps counteract funnel vision into city management
Also helps study screens.
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Great tip, thank you! I usually keep yields off, because I feel they clutter up the screen too much, but perhaps I should consider turning them on.Remember you can see worked tiles outside the city screen: their yields appear bigger than non-worked tiles. Some tiles you want to see worked.
It is very handy for Empire management as it helps counteract funnel vision into city management
Another turnset coming up soon...
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Thank you all for the advise. I went straight for alpha and played until it was researched in 1360 BC. Someone mentioned I could have traded for mining later, when I was already one turn from finishing it and I realized that I really have no great use for mining until I settle the gold. So settle the gold I did! 
This is a bit risky as Saladin is quite close to my horses, but he hasn't showed any interest in grabbing them yet. And I still think he will settle another city between the horse and his cap before going for the horses. I hope at least... Settler will be my next important build to get it.
Soon I'll have a GS that could be used to bulb machinery later or build an academy now. Somehow I feel like going with the academy. There's still very much to research. Is this a bad idea?
I think I have lost the oracle. There is some religious civ out there that I'm pretty sure have started it already and I'm still very far away...
Or is it still doable if I beeline priesthood and prechop?
I thought I could trade my way to priesthood once alpha is in, but that's not the case. Tech screen:
Nobody wants to trade me meditation or polytheism yet. Brennus will give me BW for writing and Cathy will give me Masonry, Hunting and Fishing for Writing + mysticism. Should I make these trades immediately or wait a few turns so that I can possibly trade writing to more civs at once?
My empire at this date:
The north:
Ragnar's borders can now be seen in the south and Cathy's in the west. Fogbusting should be quite good, although with one more warrior far NE I suppose I could soon stop worrying about barbs entirely.
This is a bit risky as Saladin is quite close to my horses, but he hasn't showed any interest in grabbing them yet. And I still think he will settle another city between the horse and his cap before going for the horses. I hope at least... Settler will be my next important build to get it.Soon I'll have a GS that could be used to bulb machinery later or build an academy now. Somehow I feel like going with the academy. There's still very much to research. Is this a bad idea?
I think I have lost the oracle. There is some religious civ out there that I'm pretty sure have started it already and I'm still very far away...
Or is it still doable if I beeline priesthood and prechop?I thought I could trade my way to priesthood once alpha is in, but that's not the case. Tech screen:
Nobody wants to trade me meditation or polytheism yet. Brennus will give me BW for writing and Cathy will give me Masonry, Hunting and Fishing for Writing + mysticism. Should I make these trades immediately or wait a few turns so that I can possibly trade writing to more civs at once?
My empire at this date:
The north:
Ragnar's borders can now be seen in the south and Cathy's in the west. Fogbusting should be quite good, although with one more warrior far NE I suppose I could soon stop worrying about barbs entirely.
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Had to play just a few more turns...
In my last post I mentioned there was probably some religious dude out there that is already working on the oracle. That was because Judaism was just founded somewhere. But then I realized that this most likely meant that whoever founded Judaism went for Monotheism instead of Priesthood and was not at all building the oracle yet. So I took a shot. Two turns for Meditation, two turns for Priesthood and I started building in Thessalonica, which had the most forests. I calculated that with chopping it would still take me 8 turns, which incidentally was the same amount of turns needed to research monarchy when running two scientists and building research in cap... Calculations turned out to be correct:
and in 925 BC:
I enter the medieval era!
Next turn I pop a GS and stopped there for now.
Still not sure if I should bulb or build academy. I can bulb maths, which makes Guilds bulb pretty impossible later. But maths could pehaps be traded for IW and HBR later, so it's not exactly completely useless. What to do with GS?
Thessalonica is building a settler which I'm planning to send to the pigs/corn site. I need those for health, so that I can grow more and faster under HR. With currency soon coming in, it won't even cost me much. That city could also function as a temporary GP farm to quickly pump out my second GP running caste, before it turns to working those hills and massproducing cataphracts.
In my last post I mentioned there was probably some religious dude out there that is already working on the oracle. That was because Judaism was just founded somewhere. But then I realized that this most likely meant that whoever founded Judaism went for Monotheism instead of Priesthood and was not at all building the oracle yet. So I took a shot. Two turns for Meditation, two turns for Priesthood and I started building in Thessalonica, which had the most forests. I calculated that with chopping it would still take me 8 turns, which incidentally was the same amount of turns needed to research monarchy when running two scientists and building research in cap... Calculations turned out to be correct:
and in 925 BC:
I enter the medieval era!
Next turn I pop a GS and stopped there for now.
Still not sure if I should bulb or build academy. I can bulb maths, which makes Guilds bulb pretty impossible later. But maths could pehaps be traded for IW and HBR later, so it's not exactly completely useless. What to do with GS?
Thessalonica is building a settler which I'm planning to send to the pigs/corn site. I need those for health, so that I can grow more and faster under HR. With currency soon coming in, it won't even cost me much. That city could also function as a temporary GP farm to quickly pump out my second GP running caste, before it turns to working those hills and massproducing cataphracts.
FlyingSwan
King
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2009
- Messages
- 620
I held out for A HBR trade,but it never came in...I got guilds 4 turns after bornincantaloup (T119 I think)and then had to self tech HBR anyway.The AI will trade Math for IW though,but couldnt you trade monarchy for IW instead?My attempt I oracled civil service so I had to use my GS to bulb Maths 1 turn before completing CoL,so the Math for IW trade came early,and I managed to trade Math and something else for Monarchy.
In retrospect I think the GS would be better used for the Academy and oracling Machinery might be a better play.In your attempt I would build the academy and keep working the cottages in the capital.
In retrospect I think the GS would be better used for the Academy and oracling Machinery might be a better play.In your attempt I would build the academy and keep working the cottages in the capital.
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Played some more, until 1AD. 4 turns from Guilds, but no HBR yet and nobody wants to trade. Also, I've perhaps been beelining Guilds too much, because still no CoL or Maths either, which means no caste for GM and no massupgrade to expect. Why did I put the 16 cataphracts rule in there?!?!?!?! Will take me forever to attack. Though everything choppable is prechopped by now, so we'll see how it goes.
Will start comparing to other posted saves soon to see where I went wrong.
Anyway. First, I met two more jokers:
We are all on one happy continent, yay! No naval invasion needed! Both of them came from the west. They appeared after I traded writing to Cathy, so I guess they are behind her.
Maths or monarchy can be traded for IW, but so can other crap apparently:
When we met he didn't even have AG. Shame I couldn't trade that for IW! This revealed iron east of cap, which needed yet another city to hook up.
After Currency I decided to just head straight for Guilds. I used whatever trick in the book to be able to keep my slider at 100%. Building wealth, trading extra cows away for a bargain to the only other AI who didn't have them yet (Brennus, who had a pastured cow and a worker building the road when we signed the deal), selling old techs around for whatever money anyone could cough up and so on. Once I had MC and Machinery, it started looking bad, because I didn't want to sell MC, mon, cur or feud. That's when I heard ToA was completed by Brennus. Diplo screen showed Cathy had a huge pile of gold, so first I begged Raggy, whom I had been able to get to pleased, of everything he had. Then I switched into Hinduism to get Cathy to pleased and:
Thanks for building me failgold!
Cathy's failgold was enough to make sure I can power through Guilds and HBR without lowering the slider. By that point Cathy had been plotting for a while, so I suspect I also got myself a peace treaty in that deal. She is still plotting, never stopped. Can it be against me when we have the peace sign?
Actually, I then got some failgold from ToA myself, which I suppose was stupid, because I could have made just as much building wealth without marble, or?
My lands at 1AD:
Oops, have to remember to not build that spy I just started. I cued it up when I thought I might have a chance to steal maths from Brennus when he gets it, but then I checked EP screen and that's not the case. Otoh, I'm hoping once Brennus gets math, someone will trade it.
Tech screen:
Not too shabby! Don't think I've ever before had a lead like that at this point playing emp.
Relations:
Now, I need to decide whom to attack first. I was planning to take out Ragnar and Brennus first, then head west to conquer the rest of the world. However, Catherine plotting made me consider taking her out first. If I can get my stack ready before she has feud, it should be a quick affair. Raggy doesn't have mon yet, so maybe I would still have time to also take him out before feud after conquering Cathy. Though I don't like the idea of having to move my army a very long distance between the wars. But if I take Cathy first and continue west, my southern border will always be threatened by Raggy. What's do you guys think is the best order?
I'm also thinking about switching research to HBR now so I can get a few HA out before guilds. They are cheaper to upgrade. Chariot turns out to cost 200 gold to upgrade, so I can't do very many of those...
If I decide to go for Cathy first, I should probably switch to Buddhism right away. She might attack before I have my stack ready, but she's welcome to send her stack in here to suicide themselves against my longbows in my border hill city and to give my first Cataphracts a bit of experience before I am allowed to advance on her.
Also, I've perhaps been beelining Guilds too much, because still no CoL or Maths either, which means no caste for GM and no massupgrade to expect. Why did I put the 16 cataphracts rule in there?!?!?!?! Will take me forever to attack. Though everything choppable is prechopped by now, so we'll see how it goes.Will start comparing to other posted saves soon to see where I went wrong.
Anyway. First, I met two more jokers:
Spoiler :
We are all on one happy continent, yay! No naval invasion needed! Both of them came from the west. They appeared after I traded writing to Cathy, so I guess they are behind her.
Maths or monarchy can be traded for IW, but so can other crap apparently:
When we met he didn't even have AG. Shame I couldn't trade that for IW! This revealed iron east of cap, which needed yet another city to hook up.
After Currency I decided to just head straight for Guilds. I used whatever trick in the book to be able to keep my slider at 100%. Building wealth, trading extra cows away for a bargain to the only other AI who didn't have them yet (Brennus, who had a pastured cow and a worker building the road when we signed the deal
), selling old techs around for whatever money anyone could cough up and so on. Once I had MC and Machinery, it started looking bad, because I didn't want to sell MC, mon, cur or feud. That's when I heard ToA was completed by Brennus. Diplo screen showed Cathy had a huge pile of gold, so first I begged Raggy, whom I had been able to get to pleased, of everything he had. Then I switched into Hinduism to get Cathy to pleased and:
Spoiler :
Thanks for building me failgold!
Cathy's failgold was enough to make sure I can power through Guilds and HBR without lowering the slider. By that point Cathy had been plotting for a while, so I suspect I also got myself a peace treaty in that deal. She is still plotting, never stopped. Can it be against me when we have the peace sign?Actually, I then got some failgold from ToA myself, which I suppose was stupid, because I could have made just as much building wealth without marble, or?
My lands at 1AD:
Oops, have to remember to not build that spy I just started. I cued it up when I thought I might have a chance to steal maths from Brennus when he gets it, but then I checked EP screen and that's not the case. Otoh, I'm hoping once Brennus gets math, someone will trade it.
Tech screen:
Spoiler :
Not too shabby! Don't think I've ever before had a lead like that at this point playing emp.
Relations:
Spoiler :
Now, I need to decide whom to attack first. I was planning to take out Ragnar and Brennus first, then head west to conquer the rest of the world. However, Catherine plotting made me consider taking her out first. If I can get my stack ready before she has feud, it should be a quick affair. Raggy doesn't have mon yet, so maybe I would still have time to also take him out before feud after conquering Cathy. Though I don't like the idea of having to move my army a very long distance between the wars. But if I take Cathy first and continue west, my southern border will always be threatened by Raggy. What's do you guys think is the best order?
I'm also thinking about switching research to HBR now so I can get a few HA out before guilds. They are cheaper to upgrade. Chariot turns out to cost 200 gold to upgrade, so I can't do very many of those...
If I decide to go for Cathy first, I should probably switch to Buddhism right away. She might attack before I have my stack ready, but she's welcome to send her stack in here to suicide themselves against my longbows in my border hill city and to give my first Cataphracts a bit of experience before I am allowed to advance on her.
I'm a rusty player been caught up in playing Endless Space but just got back into civ 4. So far no strategy games have match with the complexity of this game. (Late post) My question is after getting your cata up, who do you plan to attack first? Looking at your diplomacy, if you're attacking south your more likely to get a double Buddha war on you unless you manage to bribe someone with you. I will follow up but a challenge to wait and attack with knights as I always tend to skip and go for cuirasser. I think even if you switch to Buddhism and she's already planning to attack isn't going to change her mind. I'm not sure though. Don't you just love Holy War
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I agree that Buddhism (Ragnar/Brennus= dangerous) seems like the better religion to adopt.
Invasion path: Arabia fits nicely before Russia. Then, whoever is behind (Maya/HRE). Maya (techer - Hindu holy city - wonders?) is the best long-term target.
Despite different religions, Ragnar will like other leaders because of Hereditary Rule. You can keep him to your Buddhist side by negociating trade embargos.
You need to explore more. And toggle the tile yields on!
Invasion path: Arabia fits nicely before Russia. Then, whoever is behind (Maya/HRE). Maya (techer - Hindu holy city - wonders?) is the best long-term target.
Despite different religions, Ragnar will like other leaders because of Hereditary Rule. You can keep him to your Buddhist side by negociating trade embargos.
You need to explore more. And toggle the tile yields on!
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Yes, Buddhism is much better to adopt. I adopted Hinduism only to be able to beg Cathy of her failgold. I have more Buddhist cities also. If adopting Buddhism and staying in HR can keep Ragnar of my back while I invade Arabia, Russia and whatever lies behind that, I think that's the way to go.
I need to explore more, you are right. Somehow I was so sure Ragnar and Brennus would be my first targets that I have completely neglected exploring the west... And tile yields... okay, okay, I still think they clutter up the screen too much, but apparently I'd better get used to it.
My question is after getting your cata up, who do you plan to attack first? Looking at your diplomacy, if you're attacking south your more likely to get a double Buddha war on you unless you manage to bribe someone with you. I will follow up but a challenge to wait and attack with knights as I always tend to skip and go for cuirasser. I think even if you switch to Buddhism and she's already planning to attack isn't going to change her mind. I'm not sure though. Don't you just love Holy War
I'm not that worried about getting into a double war, as long as it is not a two front war. The cataphracts won't have any counters to fear for a long time.
I don't even remember when would have been the last time I built a knight, so this is most interesting to actually try beeline Guilds!
Cathy will for sure be even more likely to attack me if I adopt Buddhism. She's Hindu. That's why I'm thinking I should absolutely go Buddhist if I am heading in her direction. If she declares sooner than I'm ready, it doesn't really matter, because she shouldn't be able to get past my longbows.
FlyingSwan
King
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2009
- Messages
- 620
I agree arabia is the 1st target.I agree about chariots being too expensive to upgrade(I did it myself,and as my post said it was a silly error).Diffrence between your game and mine is I went for a GM for an upgrade through CoL,upgrading even HA into Knights will take way tOo long if you were planning on doing it through the slider alone..
Its good that your regretting your "16 cataphacts to the front line rule",its easier said than done and not optimal(I would of attacked with 8 while the others were bieng built for eg)
Bornincantaloup,s game is great example to follow,my style is more about fewer citys initially so the ones I take over wont cripple me economically and I can keep the rush going.I can always backfill land later and take over a couple more civs.
Its good that your regretting your "16 cataphacts to the front line rule",its easier said than done and not optimal(I would of attacked with 8 while the others were bieng built for eg)
Bornincantaloup,s game is great example to follow,my style is more about fewer citys initially so the ones I take over wont cripple me economically and I can keep the rush going.I can always backfill land later and take over a couple more civs.
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Yes, I sincerely regret the 16 cataphracts rule. At first I had planned to make it 12, which probably would have been better, but then I decided to make it harder. Problem is that this rule will now make the cataphracts a lot less useful...
FlyingSwan
King
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2009
- Messages
- 620
maybe,was your rule,either way I cant see myself losing the game from my Cataphact rush to 1000ad.By your caveat youve made cataphacts less usefull by about 10 turns ,which on emporer is no biggy,you will win this game..
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Trololololoo, Cataphracts are awesome! 
So I had all the necessary techs ready by 125AD and then I brought out the
Meanwhile, Cathy was still plotting and was putting together quite a stack:
That stack is absolutely no problem for a bunch of cataphracts, but it's not a nice one to get backstabbed by while attacking in another direction. So I knew I would have to advance in her general direction first. My plan was indeed to first take out Sal, then Cathy. However, while getting my stack ready Sal peace vassaled to Cathy! Leaves me with little choice but to invade mother Russia asap. So on turn 132 (exactly the same as you FlyingSwan, though I have 17 cataphracts!) I was in position:
Cathy had just reached feud by then, but it's not that bad. Lost one cataphract taking the first city. The next turn I wiped out all of that nasty stack from the last pic without any losses at all. Let's see how fast I can get Moscow!
I don't know how much that 16 cataphracts rule costed me in the end. It didn't take that long at all to get them, maybe lost two turns compared to a 12 cataphracts rule.
Tech situation when I was first able to build Cataphracts:
Only Pacal has feud and some are still missing monarchy.
Tech situation when the stack was ready:
I probably won't be fighting anyone pre feud, except perhaps Sal, because it will take me a while to get to Raggy and Brennus. But Raggy has elephants, so he would have been tougher even without feud.
Some thoughts on what I should have done better in retrospect:
So I had all the necessary techs ready by 125AD and then I brought out the
Meanwhile, Cathy was still plotting and was putting together quite a stack:
Spoiler :
That stack is absolutely no problem for a bunch of cataphracts, but it's not a nice one to get backstabbed by while attacking in another direction. So I knew I would have to advance in her general direction first. My plan was indeed to first take out Sal, then Cathy. However, while getting my stack ready Sal peace vassaled to Cathy! Leaves me with little choice but to invade mother Russia asap. So on turn 132 (exactly the same as you FlyingSwan, though I have 17 cataphracts!
) I was in position:Spoiler :
Cathy had just reached feud by then, but it's not that bad. Lost one cataphract taking the first city. The next turn I wiped out all of that nasty stack from the last pic without any losses at all. Let's see how fast I can get Moscow!
I don't know how much that 16 cataphracts rule costed me in the end. It didn't take that long at all to get them, maybe lost two turns compared to a 12 cataphracts rule.
Tech situation when I was first able to build Cataphracts:
Spoiler :
Only Pacal has feud and some are still missing monarchy.
Tech situation when the stack was ready:
Spoiler :
I probably won't be fighting anyone pre feud, except perhaps Sal, because it will take me a while to get to Raggy and Brennus. But Raggy has elephants, so he would have been tougher even without feud.
Some thoughts on what I should have done better in retrospect:
- All cities could have been building HAs already before guilds to have their first Cataphracts already started.
- Maybe I could have shaved a turn off by careful calculation, but I was too lazy for that.
- I could have declared on Cathy 3-4 turns earlier to get her stack over to my territory and get myself a Super Medic before entering her lands.
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
I think I need some help...I'm not used to warring at this point of the game and now my economy went down the drain.
War against Cathy was going very well. Captured everything on my way to Moscow, but as she still didn't capitulate I went on to raze one more city west of Moscow. With one city left, she was still "doing fine on her own"! I'm guessing this is because Sal never broke free from vassalship. The last city was in a very stupid location and it would have taken me ages to get there:
Spoiler :
Pacal was about to get Engineering and I wanted his shrine, so I decided to get back to Cathy later and:
Spoiler :
I then went for Pacal who in fact did get Engineering. But he's not much of a unit spammer and I only faced one pike while taking three cities before he capped. This war was very fast and I did finally get that Hindu holy city, that DIDN'T HAVE A SHRINE!! I gave Pacal back his other cities, except Mutal, which had shrine potential and MoM.
At this point Sal had broken free from Cathy and Cathy had vassalled to Raggy. That made things a bit more complicated. On top of that Brennus declared on me at one point, but never showed up with more than a couple of HAs and chariot. Then we made peace again.
Charlie had been sitting in his corner of the world doing nothing really. By 1000 AD he didn't even have feud yet. Now this is the kind of defenses I had hoped to face right from the start:
Spoiler :
Another quick war. I attacked from two sides, razed two cities and captured two (henge+AP in one and Church of Nativity in the other). Then he capped, though he didn't have much to offer me in the deal.
Spoiler :
That's when I realized in how bad shape I really am. I think it was about -50gpt with slider at 0%, while the last 3 cities I've taken where still revolting. I've played a couple more turns, trying to push it up, but still negative. I'm not really sure how to best recover at this point, because I'm used to having a lot more infra in place when I go for a large scale war like this.
I'm trying to get up courthouses, because city maintenance costs skyrocketed when I got all the vassals. But on the other hand my only chance of getting research is to stay in caste for scientists, which means I can't whip the courthouses and they take forever to build. I feel I need research, because I need to upgrade my cataphracts soon. Should I just skip that, build wealth in all unnecessary cities and pump out more cataphracts while trying to stomp Ragnar and Brennus before they get pikes? Possibly I could add some trebs in case they get too many pikes.
Current tech situation:
Spoiler :
Some screenshots of my lands:
Spoiler :
Raggy:
Spoiler :
Brennus:
Spoiler :
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
In the absence of advice here, I had to make my own decisions. And that decision is...
I actually rolled back 3 turns, because of the stupid switch I made into OR, which prevented me from adopting slavery. I whipped a few courthouses, which turned my economy from horrible to just bad. Then I sent my army back towards home and on the way I invaded Arabia. Sal had engineering, but only saw 2 pikes, which I took out in the open fields. At first I thought his protective longbows behind cheap walls would be a pain, but a CIII cataphract has 56,3% chance vs. CGII/DrillI longbow in city with 50% defense bonus. The RNG was nice to me and I only lost one unit taking Mecca (with GLH!) and Damascus. That was enough for Sal and:
Sal now functions as a nice wall towards Raggy's sleazy vassal Cathy:
I'm kind of hoping that when I attack Raggy, Sal with take out that last Russian city. He has some siege, so he might actually go for it.
I've been so stupid as I didn't notice it until now, but Raggy doesn't have any metals!! No worries if he gets engineering, I'll stomp him anyway. Once that is done I should be able to strip Brennus of Iron in the first turn of my war against him, so no worries about facing pikes there either.
As a backup plan I just got edu and I'm having Pacal researching Nationalism while I'm researching gunpowder and starting on lib. Once I'm close enough to lib, I'll trade edu for nationalism and lib MT. Upgrading my now very experienced army of cataphracts should seal the deal, in case I haven't won by then.
Spoiler :
I actually rolled back 3 turns, because of the stupid switch I made into OR, which prevented me from adopting slavery. I whipped a few courthouses, which turned my economy from horrible to just bad. Then I sent my army back towards home and on the way I invaded Arabia. Sal had engineering, but only saw 2 pikes, which I took out in the open fields. At first I thought his protective longbows behind cheap walls would be a pain, but a CIII cataphract has 56,3% chance vs. CGII/DrillI longbow in city with 50% defense bonus. The RNG was nice to me and I only lost one unit taking Mecca (with GLH!) and Damascus. That was enough for Sal and:
Spoiler :
Sal now functions as a nice wall towards Raggy's sleazy vassal Cathy:
Spoiler :
I'm kind of hoping that when I attack Raggy, Sal with take out that last Russian city. He has some siege, so he might actually go for it.
I've been so stupid as I didn't notice it until now, but Raggy doesn't have any metals!! No worries if he gets engineering, I'll stomp him anyway. Once that is done I should be able to strip Brennus of Iron in the first turn of my war against him, so no worries about facing pikes there either.
As a backup plan I just got edu and I'm having Pacal researching Nationalism while I'm researching gunpowder and starting on lib. Once I'm close enough to lib, I'll trade edu for nationalism and lib MT. Upgrading my now very experienced army of cataphracts should seal the deal, in case I haven't won by then.
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
Conclusion: Do we really love Justinian?
Answer:
After capping Sal I healed up my army and moved it toward Raggy. This time I declared a couple of turns before I was ready to attack to bring out his stack. And a stack he brought:
The nice thing with a huge stack of cataphracts is that a pile of Viking scum like that is gone with the click of a button. Once again without any losses. In fact, my army was barely even scratched and the next turn I took three cities:
Around the same time I saw Sal moving towards Cathy's beach resort:
Unfortunately, Sal was not quite as effective as I was. After his army disappeared into the fog, all I heard was that a Russian Great General was born.
I moved on to take Nidaros and yet another city, then he had had enough:
Raggy capitulating meant Cathy was once again a free lady, so I checked in with her what she had on her mind:
Now only Brennus remained. He could have been tough, if he hadn't chosen his research path like only a Civ IV AI can. He still didn't have engineering, instead he had researched crap like Banking, DR and even MT before he had Gunpowder. He must really love that West Point! He had built some knights, but that was not anything to fear. I attacked as soon as I had enough Cataphracts in position, took two cities and stripped him of iron on the first turn. A couple of turns later I was first to lib:
That didn't really matter, because I already had two stacks in position to take two more cities, which I did and Brenny realized it was over:
Conquest victory in 1260AD:
This is by far my earliest victory on any level!! Cataphracts turned out to be much better than I had ever thought!
Some final screens:
Graph:
Cities/Wonders:
Units built:
Score:
That's more than twice the score of my earlier best. Now all I need to do is learn how to play I game like that in less than 13 hours...
Could this have been done any faster or better? I'm sure it could! I'm no master of managing my empire while at war and I noticed lots of mistakes during the course of the game. I also generated only three Great People, all scientists. First built academy, second I just settled in cap and third one started GA a few turns before it was over to let me press through to lib before the end. But despite the mistakes, I learned a lot! Now I understand mounted warfare a lot better. I also learned a lot about how to keep the economy afloat through a prolonged war. And of course, I learned to love Justinian!
Answer:
Spoiler :
After capping Sal I healed up my army and moved it toward Raggy. This time I declared a couple of turns before I was ready to attack to bring out his stack. And a stack he brought:
Spoiler :
The nice thing with a huge stack of cataphracts is that a pile of Viking scum like that is gone with the click of a button. Once again without any losses. In fact, my army was barely even scratched and the next turn I took three cities:
Spoiler :
Around the same time I saw Sal moving towards Cathy's beach resort:
Spoiler :
Unfortunately, Sal was not quite as effective as I was. After his army disappeared into the fog, all I heard was that a Russian Great General was born.
I moved on to take Nidaros and yet another city, then he had had enough:
Spoiler :
Raggy capitulating meant Cathy was once again a free lady, so I checked in with her what she had on her mind:
Spoiler :
Now only Brennus remained. He could have been tough, if he hadn't chosen his research path like only a Civ IV AI can. He still didn't have engineering, instead he had researched crap like Banking, DR and even MT before he had Gunpowder. He must really love that West Point! He had built some knights, but that was not anything to fear. I attacked as soon as I had enough Cataphracts in position, took two cities and stripped him of iron on the first turn. A couple of turns later I was first to lib:
Spoiler :
That didn't really matter, because I already had two stacks in position to take two more cities, which I did and Brenny realized it was over:
Spoiler :
Conquest victory in 1260AD:
Spoiler :
This is by far my earliest victory on any level!! Cataphracts turned out to be much better than I had ever thought!
Some final screens:
Graph:
Spoiler :
Cities/Wonders:
Spoiler :
Units built:
Spoiler :
Score:
Spoiler :
That's more than twice the score of my earlier best. Now all I need to do is learn how to play I game like that in less than 13 hours...
Could this have been done any faster or better? I'm sure it could! I'm no master of managing my empire while at war and I noticed lots of mistakes during the course of the game. I also generated only three Great People, all scientists. First built academy, second I just settled in cap and third one started GA a few turns before it was over to let me press through to lib before the end. But despite the mistakes, I learned a lot! Now I understand mounted warfare a lot better. I also learned a lot about how to keep the economy afloat through a prolonged war. And of course, I learned to love Justinian!
elitetroops
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2012
- Messages
- 5,725
I was curious to why your Cataphracts had to throw in the towel so early, so I had a look at your save.just got to 1000ad and have taken out 3 civs(capitulated 2,destroyed 1),when you see pikes its time to call it a day with the cataphacts(although backed up with maces,seige and spys they still good-but that kinda defeats the object).
Elephants are also nasty agaist knights,with forward planning you can eliminate pikes with spys by destroying iron and creating trade embargos against your target,but this game I was just fast playing and having fun
Why didn't you build any barracks?? Usually a promotion more or less does not make that much of a difference, but when fighting tight battles, the difference is huge! I made an example:
Combat I Cataphract vs. CGI Longbow fully fortified with 60% cultural defences:
Spoiler :
CII Cata vs. same defender:
Spoiler :
59%>>>>29% and will save you a lot of units. Similar results where Combat I <<< Combat II can be seen against protective CGII+drill I longbows with 40% defenses. I think that one was something like 24% and 56%. Put walls around the protective longbows and both combat I and II cataphracts have <30%, while combat III is way over 50%. In other words, those extra promotions really mean something in this scenario.
In your save, most of your cataphracts were really low on experience and I think that costed you a lot. In addition to no barracks or stables, I couldn't find any settled Generals either. They were all attached to units. I think it was very helpful for me to settle them all in my HE city, which produced CIII Catas every second turn. That extra 10%-20% strength really keeps them alive a lot longer when longbows are around. CII+shock catas also means that pikes out in the open really isn't a problem at all, while less promoted catas might struggle. If your army had been more promoted, I think you still could have easily taken out Brennus from that point, possibly even the rest of the world.
