'We should have been more audacious' - A Civilization: Beyond Earth retrospective

[shaglio]

I don't see a way to make Ring3-Leaf-Tech-Buildings worthwhile in the current system though. To do that, their yields would need to be absurdly high, because once you reach that tech level it would still be "pick up the rest of the affinity you need".

Or, rather than flat +X bonuses, they could give +X% bonuses. So the aforementioned T150 +4 production building could become a +25% production building instead. Or even +4 production and +25% production like some Civ 5 buildings.

 

[Makenshi]

Maybe the devs could create a 3rd progress table, exclusive to affinites? I mean:

- The more science you get, the more techs you unlock - check;
- The more culture you get, the more virtues you unlock - check;
- The more science AND culture you get, the more affinites you unlock - and you get to choose which one you want, like virtues.

Science + culture/2 = affinity. A steal culture covert ops should be included, maybe a "steal virtue" as well [since there are both steal science and steal tech].

And just to be sure, improvements that cost energy [like academy, dome, biowell and manufactory] should NOT be allowed to be built side to side [like chateaus in CiV].No more academy spam, etc.

 

[Galgus]

If anything I'd want Culture to be bigger than Science in gaining affinity - Science is already quite powerful in BE.

 

[Gorbles]

That's an interesting option to explore. Science is King is a thing in all Civ. games, and likely forever will be (most games of the same genre have the same thing; it's all about pacing and the relative strength of all of the respective Victory routes). Pushing another thing up to that level would be worth exploring, though you'd have to disconnect aspects of it from Science progression in the first place.

 

[beetle]

I guess it has only been a couple months, but that article was such a candid mea culpa that I really expected that major patch was close to release. Anyone care to speculate on that? Or is BE a dead horse?

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I guess it has only been a couple months, but that article was such a candid mea culpa that I really expected that major patch was close to release. Anyone care to speculate on that? Or is BE a dead horse?

Well, many people on this forum assumed BE was a dead horse before and then we got the winter patch. So, I would not automatically count BE as dead just yet. We can only hope that the delay is because Firaxis is taking their time to do things right. Plus, we know the producer for BE left, so if more work is being done on BE, it is under different management. I also think that the closer we get to civ6, the less likely anything will be done on BE, since Firaxis will most likely want to shift the BE team to help with civ6.

 

[beetle]

Plus, we know the producer for BE left, so if more work is being done on BE, it is under different management.

I missed that. When was that, and how much of surprise do you think? Was it before or after the interview in the article, and would the people being interviewed have known that their team was being restructured?

I also think that the closer we get to civ6, the less likely anything will be done on BE, since Firaxis will most likely want to shift the BE team to help with civ6.

Absolutely. When I first read this article, I took the message to be: “Okay, we messed up -- and we have a fix the works, just hang in there.” Today I read the article and my take-away is: “Okay, we messed up. Sorry about that, lesson learned.”

Firaxis seems to be pretty thinly staffed, so I would be surprised if they have the bandwidth to be toiling on a major re-work of BE given that they must be focused on VI.

Well, many people on this forum assumed BE was a dead horse before and then we got the winter patch.

That didn’t surprise me at all. Historically, Firaxis have been pretty good about patching, and I can imagine that the resources needed for that sort of patch can be spared from the kind of more raw development work going on with VI. The “audacious” work hinted at in the interview I think is more along the line of what G&K or BNW required, not the winter patch.

Here’s a couple telling lines from the interview, emphasis added. Please note the use of past tense!

“If we could go back...”
“We'd had a perfect opportunity...”

So, I am not very hopeful that I will ever buy BE myself.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I missed that. When was that, and how much of surprise do you think? Was it before or after the interview in the article, and would the people being interviewed have known that their team was being restructured?

Lena Brenk left Firaxis just a short time after this article.

Here’s a couple telling lines from the interview, emphasis added. Please note the use of past tense!

“If we could go back...”
“We'd had a perfect opportunity...”

So, I am not very hopeful that I will ever buy BE myself.

Yeah, I actually think that people misread the article. They thought the article was promising a major redo of BE when in reality, it was just the devs talking about what they wished they had done differently. The winter patch did try to address some of the regrets of the devs, like weak wonders, and we may get some future patches that continue to improve the game, but I don't believe Firaxis is planning a big 2.0 version like what people thought.

 

[beetle]

Lena Brenk left Firaxis just a short time after this article.

Thank you for that data point! That makes this interview with the devs even harder to interpret as anything other than a post mortem. The patient is dead.

Yeah, I actually think that people misread the article. They thought the article was promising a major redo of BE...

That characterizes me for sure. In my defense, the conclusion very much left that impression:
“...as Beyond Earth continues to evolve as a live game, they are working to fix what they perceive as shortcomings.”

 

[Gort]

The Polygon article said (back in March):

The Civilization: Beyond Earth Team, led by McDonough and Miller, is working on a patch that McDonough calls the "2.0" version of the game. Taking what they learned and modifying the game, they plan to ship it within the next few months.

That seems hard to misinterpret.

The article also talks about what a mistake it was to not have a beta, which is pretty accurate. I wonder how much player feedback they've actually been able to comprehend and act upon since launch, though.

Article link is here.

 

[beetle]

Thank you Gort for reason to stay optimistic! Your link was not for the Polygon article, but it got me there quickly enough.

 

[Acken]

I don't think the change of producer is very relevant for players. Producers are mostly team managers rather than designers. While a more efficient team is better there is no reason to believe what people don't like (or like) about the game has something to do with poor management.

 

[beetle]

@Acken, just reading tea leaves. If the producer leaves, it could be because the project is over and there is no meaningful work, but I agree the developer might not need her, especially at this point in the product development. The quotes from the Polygon article seem extremely positive.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I don't think the change of producer is very relevant for players. Producers are mostly team managers rather than designers. While a more efficient team is better there is no reason to believe what people don't like (or like) about the game has something to do with poor management.

Well, the change in producers might have caused some delays in the development of "2.0" as the team had to adapt to a new manager.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I tend not to take those 'special' live stream notices very seriously. They want viewers and buzz so if there is something different about a specific episode then they will call it special.

Regarding skepticism of if a version 2 is actually in the works, see lower right:

Spoiler :

I don't know who creates these tags and if they are a part of or privy to the inner workings of Firaxis but if they are then this would be proof it does exist.

 

[Makenshi]

If anything I'd want Culture to be bigger than Science in gaining affinity - Science is already quite powerful in BE.

Maybe [science + {culture x 2}]/2 = affinity, then. Hell, we could even make a super crazy formula that takes health and growth into consideration, to increase the importance of these aspects.

My point is that right now, science = affinity IF you research a tech that gives it. Thus, affinities can come as faster as you beeline them [and thus lacking lots of useful things for too long], or as slower as you postpone them [while getting nice stuff earlier]. I don't like to be forced into choosing between affinity and biowells, for example.

Also, depending only on science for affinities [as it is right now] gives too much importance to this aspect, resulting in people always giving priority to science buildings and spamming academies a.s.a.p. and a.m.a.p.

Pushing another thing up to that level would be worth exploring, though you'd have to disconnect aspects of it from Science progression in the first place.

That's the idea:

- Focus too much on science and you'll have more stuff [improvements, buildings, wonders], but lack important bonuses [culture] and advanced military [affinity]. Still, you'll have spies MUCH earlier!

- Focus to much on culture and you'll be the "lord of bonuses", but lack infrastructure [science] and military [affinites]. Still, you'll swim in gold [industry] or be VERY healthy [prosperity] long before others!

- Balance things and you'll not only ok in all aspects, but ahead in military [affinites] and able to try a rush or whatever. Or not, if you spead you affinites [3 of each instead of purity, for example]. Still, you'll have free roads AND super-scouts [stronger on defense & immune to miasma] much earlier!

There are a lot of possibilities, all better than just rushing labs + networks + cognition and spamming academies all the time.

 

[Barathor]

I tend not to take those 'special' live stream notices very seriously.

Yeah, me neither anymore. Especially after that last live Firaxis Q&A I was lured to. I like Pete Murray, but the questions being chosen and answered were a bit silly and a waste of time for me. Plus, it was mainly about Civ.

This one, however, interests me since:

1) The BE devs themselves will be present.

2) The timing with regards to the 2.0 update (Mid March article + "next few months").

3) The frequent mentioning of a beta testing phase they wish they had in the article.

4) There will probably be no mention of Civilization -- it'll be all about Beyond Earth (hopefully; instead of things such as: their personal experiences working at Firaxis as a developer of Beyond Earth and others similar subjects straying from the actual game itself).

 

[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: One post deleted as duplicate post of http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=547648

 

[Galgus]

I think all the affinities have the potential to be friendly to individualist or collectivist thought - I view them as a fairly wide spectrum based around some core values.

As such I could see all three affinities in free or centrally planned societies.
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I don't view Harmony as being against changing themselves - it is a pretty core trait that they adapt.

Their core values in my opinion are adapting to truly thrive on the new world, seeing genetics as something to be pragmatically altered, and a strong desire to preserve the environment for humanity and for its own sake.
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Purity's core values are embracing Earth's rich cultural heritage and ensuring that it is not forgotten and a certain hesitance with altering oneself.

I don't think a "perfect humanity" movement is outside of Purity's spectrum so long as it doesn't fundamentally change what it is to be human.

Purity is the one in the room that sees how humanity could be forever scarred by
misguided changes, and either rejects such changes or urges caution with them.

(While Supremacy pushes cybernetics as far as they can with boundless enthusiasm, completely convinced that it will only make things better.)
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Personally I'd make the AI more likely to go to war so that affinity grudges lead to that more often while tossing in Affinity controversy quests that reward such wars.

Honestly I was never a fan of the fill the meter BNW Culture victory with tourism.

If cities were divided into percents of citizens subscribing to different affinities, low health could cause citizens to move towards an affinity of higher health though.

Generally though if players are miles ahead of the AI it is either an AI problem (shocker!) or a difficulty level problem.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

There is a key problem with seeing affinities as ideologies or religions and in wanting to divorce affinity as much as possible from science. Ideologies and religions and in the simplest forms just thoughts. Thoughts can be changed on a whim. We could all wake up tomorrow and decide Brangelina are the royal family of America and if everyone agrees then it's true. The white house is just a building. Whether it is the office of an elected official or the royal palace is a role we give it.
Affinity at the high end has changed humanity physically. Even if a citizen of a supremacy society has thoughts sympathetic to a purity affinity, those thoughts may be taking place inside the satellite where their consciousness resides while they await the organ printer and the augmentary to finish their replacement body.
Or a harmony citizen might lean towards purity as an idea, but they may be the tenth generation of miasma breathers. Terraforming the planet to suit new arrivals from earth may seem like a worthy goal, but they'd have to alter themselves to breathe an earth atmosphere, and that may now be as difficult a change for them now as it was for the original human settlers to change from earth atmosphere adapted lungs.
Purity could be the easiest to change in some ways. They'd likely have have advanced their form to be seven foot tall, 200 IQ, exoskeleton suit equipped, gundam pilot, demigods. So adding changing their physical form wouldn't be as hard. However they've already successfully built domes and terrascapes, movie theaters and coffee shops. They've already proven to themselves they can recreate earth and be ideal humans so adding alien genes or stopping the seemingly limitless potential of their human biologal evolution for cold metal forms would seem unnecessary.

As much as I do want technology to not be the sole affinity decider, there's a point where cultural influences are dwarfed in comparison to technology.