Weak (?) pantheons

[Gidoza]

OKAY, so anyways - second rendition of my Pantheons list. Everyone, PLEASE do keep a few things in mind.

1. I *am* aiming higher than I think I should on some values in order to have people want to try these.

2. For Gazebo: I've gotten rid of the new stuff that I thought wasn't a "new feature" and opted for different options instead. Only exception was if I have deleted one feature entirely and replaced it with an equivalent one - let me know if it doesn't work when you see it.

3. Comments have been taken into account. I'll quote where necessary and make a comment for further discussion.

4. Also, I've deleted the variation #2 of the Pantheons list - your lack of reactions to it told me all I needed to know about it.




Pantheons Version #2

Ancestor Worship
+2 Faith for every 5 Citizens in a city, and +3 Culture in the Capital.

FUNAK: I'd make it 1 faith per 3 citizen in a city, and probably tie the culture to a building. Maybe +2 culture from shrines.

COMMENT: I'm not opposed to 1 to 3 per city, but I want to aim higher as I have a good feeling about it. The long-term suckiness of only +3 Culture total is made up with the long-term awesomeness of the Faith that will be generated by 2 Faith on 5 citizens. Furthermore, now that it's switched back to # of Citizens in a City (instead of Empire), the bonus will only kick in at certain times, so I think it makes for a reasonable early-game balance.

Cult Of Nature
+1 Faith and Culture for every 2 Mountains within 3 tiles of a City, and Natural Wonders gain +3 Faith and +2 Culture.

Dance of the Aurora
+2 Faith, +1 Production, and +1 Culture from Tundra tiles with improved resources.

Desert Folklore
+2 Faith, +1 Food, and +1 Gold from Desert tiles with improved resources.

Earth Mother
+2 Faith from Mines on improved resources, and +2 Production from Monuments.

Faith Healers
+15 HP healed per turn in friendly, non-attrition territory. +2 Faith and +1 Gold from Wells; +3 Faith and +1 Science from Water Mills.

Fertility Rites
+1 Food and +2 Faith from Shrines and Temples. 10% faster Growth Rate.

God of Commerce
+3 Faith and +2 Science in cities with a City Connection.

FUNAK: The problem with increasing this one is that the old God of Commerce is already really powerful with civs that get free road-connections, like Songhai, Carthage, Inca and the Iroquois. I do think that it might be an issue that both the yields provided inflates heavily and get useless after the early-game but I don't know how to solve that (and your solution didn't really do that either).

COMMENT: Can you define "free?" Because when I try to make a City Connection through Jungles/Forests, I can't do it until the Jungles/Forests in question are within my Zone of Control. That takes either lots of time, or lots of money to buy the tiles, and quite frankly, sometimes just building Roads is a faster way to go to get the job done. I would assume/prefer such connections to be automatic with no reference to Zone Control. Haven't tried Askia, though - so I don't know. Anyways, yes - if the Connections are automatically created, yeah, this is strong, so I dumped the Production bonus.

God of Craftsmen
+1 Faith for every 10 gold per turn, and +2 Production and Faith in cities with a Specialist.

God of the Open Sky
+1 Faith for every 3 featureless Plains tiles near a City (3-tile radius), and +1 Culture from Pastures.

FUNAK: I would personally suggest returning this to the way it used to be, faith from pastures is a really decent effect and I'm not really sure why it had to go.

COMMENT: Meh, let's test it more.

God of the Sea
+2 Faith from Fishing Boats and Atolls. +2 Food in coastal cities.

God of War
+2 Science from Barracks, and gain Faith if you win a battle. Formula = 120% of killed unit's strength.

COMMENT: Prefer if Ranged Units use their Attack Strength for this - but if not, whatever.

God-King
+1 Culture, Faith, Gold, and Science for every 6 followers. +1 Faith in the Capital.

The old god-king is fine. It is one of the absolute strongest late-game pantheons in the game and does definitely not need a buff.

COMMENT: Not denying this. Put in +1 Faith for fun. Slap me if necessary.

Goddess of Festivals
+2 Faith, +2 Culture, and +1 Gold for each unique Luxury Resource you control.

Goddess of Love
Gain 12 Faith and 5 Golden Age Points every time a citizen is born. Bonus scales with Era and Game Speed.

Goddess of Protection
+40% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength. +3 Faith and +1 Culture from Walls and Castles.

COMMENT: This Pantheon is really weird in its original design, in that it is influenced by nothing on the outside and is entirely dependent on itself. Since Walls are not an intuitive structure to just build for fun, I buffed them a little (and changed it from my Garrison version).

Goddess of the Hunt
+2 Faith and +1 Food from Camps.

Goddess of Wisdom
+1 Faith for every 10 Science per turn, and +2 Science and +1 Faith in the Capital.

Monument to the Gods
+4 Faith and +1 Culture from World Wonders. +15% Production of Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

Oral Tradition
+2 Faith from Plantations and +2 Culture from Markets.

Polytheism
+2 Faith and +1 Happiness in the Capital, and +1 Happiness and +1 Faith for every known Civilization with a Pantheon.

FUNAK: Won't work.

COMMENT: Why? If we're worried about generating too much Faith from meeting people, I was thinking of capping the Happiness/Faith from meeting others at +7 or +8, as this Pantheon is a tad odd in how it scales with a map size.

Anyways, if the +1 Faith for every known Civilization with a Pantheon is not an option, remove that and make it +3 Faith in the Capital instead.

Purifying Waters
+2 Faith from Oases, Lakes, and Marshes. +1 Happiness and from cities on rivers.

Religious Settlements
20% faster border growth, and gain 12 Faith every time a city expands its borders. Bonus scales with Era.

Sacred Path
+1 Faith and +1 Culture for every 3 Jungle/Forest tiles near a City (within 3 tiles).

FUNAK: Giving all land-units a super-powerful promotion that doesn't stack with the civ most likely to pick this pantheon is kinda cheap.
I'm really on the fence about this one, it usually turns out bad. I feel like every 3 tiles is too bad and every 2 tiles would be too good.
Maybe make t +1 faith and culture for every 3 jungle/forest tiles within 3 tiles of a city.

COMMENT: Agreed. Removed Woodsman promotion, and Jungles/Forests work together, now.

Stone Circles
+3 Faith from Quarries, and +2 Production from Stone Works.

Sun God
+2 Culture from Granaries and +3 Faith from Farms on improved resources.

 

[Funak]

OKAY, so anyways - second rendition of my Pantheons list. Everyone, PLEASE do keep a few things in mind.

1. I *am* aiming higher than I think I should on some values in order to have people want to try these.

First of all, don't aim higher, that's Gazebo's thing, and it is really silly. Aim for perfection from the start.

2. For Gazebo: I've gotten rid of the new stuff that I thought wasn't a "new feature" and opted for different options instead. Only exception was if I have deleted one feature entirely and replaced it with an equivalent one - let me know if it doesn't work when you see it.

3. Comments have been taken into account. I'll quote where necessary and make a comment for further discussion.

4. Also, I've deleted the variation #2 of the Pantheons list - your lack of reactions to it told me all I needed to know about it.

My lack of reactions to it is probably the same as my lack of reactions to this list, it is just REALLY annoying to go through every pantheon in the game to see which one you actually changed. Just leave the unchanged ones out of it please

 

[Gazebo]

I'm marking the one with 'new' features. Also, I can't tell which are changed and which aren't, and my brain is moving too slow to process that. Changed ones only, please?

Polytheism
+2 Faith and +1 Happiness in the Capital, and +1 Happiness and +1 Faith for every known Civilization with a Pantheon.
Cannot add yields without a new table here. IF this is absolutely necessary, I can do it, but I'd rather exhaust our other options first.

Overall, my initial review is that it looks good to me. Fix these two quirks and I'm happy.
G

 

[Gidoza]

First of all, don't aim higher, that's Gazebo's thing, and it is really silly. Aim for perfection from the start.


My lack of reactions to it is probably the same as my lack of reactions to this list, it is just REALLY annoying to go through every pantheon in the game to see which one you actually changed. Just leave the unchanged ones out of it please

It may be Gazebo's thing - I do aim for perfection from the start, but in this case, I think his point works. Gazebo makes updates quickly, and I can match that, and enjoy testing, so it's not as though it'll be a gruelling process.

As for unchanged Pantheons - ah, I get you. Good point. Will re-post that, soon.

Re: Gazebo's former comment: when I make my re-post, I'll asterisk the ones for which the original version concerned me for meaningful Faith generation, and will leave it at that for now.

And actually for Ancestor Worship - the original DOES say Citizens, unless the description is wrong...anyways, my bad, because I wanted to change the "Empire" thing back and forgot - thank you!

 

[Gazebo]

It may be Gazebo's thing - I do aim for perfection from the start, but in this case, I think his point works. Gazebo makes updates quickly, and I can match that, and enjoy testing, so it's not as though it'll be a gruelling process.

As for unchanged Pantheons - ah, I get you. Good point. Will re-post that, soon.

Re: Gazebo's former comment: when I make my re-post, I'll asterisk the ones for which the original version concerned me for meaningful Faith generation, and will leave it at that for now.

And actually for Ancestor Worship - the original DOES say Citizens, unless the description is wrong...anyways, my bad, because I wanted to change the "Empire" thing back and forgot - thank you!

Ah, yeah, I updated that function a while ago and forgot that I had done it (it is citizens, not followers). I'll edit my post.

 

[Gidoza]

Okay, a list of only the changed ones. I haven't listed what it was changed FROM - but I can do that if you want me to. Asterisks indicate what was hard in original to get lots of Faith (my opinion alone, of course).


Ancestor Worship*
+2 Faith for every 5 Citizens in a city, and +3 Culture in the Capital.

Cult Of Nature
+1 Faith and Culture for every 2 Mountains within 3 tiles of a City, and Natural Wonders gain +3 Faith and +2 Culture.

Faith Healers*
+15 HP healed per turn in friendly, non-attrition territory. +2 Faith and +1 Gold from Wells; +3 Faith and +1 Science from Water Mills.

Fertility Rites*
+1 Food and +2 Faith from Shrines and Temples. 10% faster Growth Rate.

God of Commerce*
+3 Faith and +2 Science in cities with a City Connection.

God of Craftsmen*
+1 Faith for every 10 gold per turn, and +2 Production and Faith in cities with a Specialist.

God of War*
+2 Science from Barracks, and gain Faith if you win a battle. Formula = 120% of killed unit's strength.

God-King*
+1 Culture, Faith, Gold, and Science for every 6 followers. +1 Faith in the Capital.

Goddess of Festivals
+2 Faith, +2 Culture, and +1 Gold for each unique Luxury Resource you control.

Goddess of Love
Gain 12 Faith and 5 Golden Age Points every time a citizen is born. Bonus scales with Era and Game Speed.

Goddess of Protection*
+40% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength. +3 Faith and +1 Culture from Walls and Castles.

Goddess of Wisdom*
+1 Faith for every 10 Science per turn, and +2 Science and +1 Faith in the Capital.

Monument to the Gods*
+4 Faith and +1 Culture from World Wonders. +15% Production of Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

Polytheism*
+3 Faith and +1 Happiness in the Capital, and +1 Happiness for every known Civilization with a Pantheon.

Religious Settlements*
30% faster border growth, and gain 12 Faith every time a city expands its borders. Bonus scales with Era.

Sacred Path
+1 Faith and +1 Culture for every 3 Jungle/Forest tiles near a City (within 3 tiles).

 

[Gazebo]

Okay, a list of only the changed ones. I haven't listed what it was changed FROM - but I can do that if you want me to. Asterisks indicate what was hard in original to get lots of Faith (my opinion alone, of course).


Ancestor Worship*
+2 Faith for every 5 Citizens in a city, and +3 Culture in the Capital.

Cult Of Nature
+1 Faith and Culture for every 2 Mountains within 3 tiles of a City, and Natural Wonders gain +3 Faith and +2 Culture.

Faith Healers*
+15 HP healed per turn in friendly, non-attrition territory. +2 Faith and +1 Gold from Wells; +3 Faith and +1 Science from Water Mills.

Fertility Rites*
+1 Food and +2 Faith from Shrines and Temples. 10% faster Growth Rate.

God of Commerce*
+3 Faith and +2 Science in cities with a City Connection.

God of Craftsmen*
+1 Faith for every 10 gold per turn, and +2 Production and Faith in cities with a Specialist.

God of War*
+2 Science from Barracks, and gain Faith if you win a battle. Formula = 120% of killed unit's strength.

God-King*
+1 Culture, Faith, Gold, and Science for every 6 followers. +1 Faith in the Capital.

Goddess of Festivals
+2 Faith, +2 Culture, and +1 Gold for each unique Luxury Resource you control.

Goddess of Love
Gain 12 Faith and 5 Golden Age Points every time a citizen is born. Bonus scales with Era and Game Speed.

Goddess of Protection*
+40% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength. +3 Faith and +1 Culture from Walls and Castles.

Goddess of Wisdom*
+1 Faith for every 10 Science per turn, and +2 Science and +1 Faith in the Capital.

Monument to the Gods*
+4 Faith and +1 Culture from World Wonders. +15% Production of Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

Polytheism*
+3 Faith and +1 Happiness in the Capital, and +1 Happiness for every known Civilization with a Pantheon.

Religious Settlements*
30% faster border growth, and gain 12 Faith every time a city expands its borders. Bonus scales with Era.

Sacred Path
+1 Faith and +1 Culture for every 3 Jungle/Forest tiles near a City (within 3 tiles).

On Sacred Path, that's 3 Forest or 3 Jungle, not mixed, right? Because we can't mix them, not for the function's current model (and it'd be a slow PITA to implement hybrid feature yield pulls).

 

[PurpleMentat]

Pantheons Version #2

Ancestor Worship
+2 Faith for every 5 Citizens in a city, and +3 Culture in the Capital.

Cult Of Nature
+1 Faith and Culture for every 2 Mountains within 3 tiles of a City, and Natural Wonders gain +3 Faith and +2 Culture.

Faith Healers
+15 HP healed per turn in friendly, non-attrition territory. +2 Faith and +1 Gold from Wells; +3 Faith and +1 Science from Water Mills.

Fertility Rites
+1 Food and +2 Faith from Shrines and Temples. 10% faster Growth Rate.

God of Commerce
+3 Faith and +2 Science in cities with a City Connection.

God of Craftsmen
+1 Faith for every 10 gold per turn, and +2 Production and Faith in cities with a Specialist.

God of the Open Sky
+1 Faith for every 3 featureless Plains tiles near a City (3-tile radius), and +1 Culture from Pastures.

God of War
+2 Science from Barracks, and gain Faith if you win a battle. Formula = 120% of killed unit's strength.

God-King
+1 Culture, Faith, Gold, and Science for every 6 followers. +1 Faith in the Capital.

Goddess of Festivals
+2 Faith, +2 Culture, and +1 Gold for each unique Luxury Resource you control.

Goddess of Love
Gain 12 Faith and 5 Golden Age Points every time a citizen is born. Bonus scales with Era and Game Speed.

Goddess of Protection
+40% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength. +3 Faith and +1 Culture from Walls and Castles.

Goddess of Wisdom
+1 Faith for every 10 Science per turn, and +2 Science and +1 Faith in the Capital.

Monument to the Gods
+4 Faith and +1 Culture from World Wonders. +15% Production of Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

Polytheism
+2 Faith and +1 Happiness in the Capital, and +1 Happiness and +1 Faith for every known Civilization with a Pantheon.

Religious Settlements
20% faster border growth, and gain 12 Faith every time a city expands its borders. Bonus scales with Era.

Sacred Path
+1 Faith and +1 Culture for every 3 Jungle/Forest tiles near a City (within 3 tiles)

Just the changed ones. Comments:
I like Ancestor Worship, Cult of Nature, God of Craftsment, God of the Open Sky, God of War, Monument to the Gods, and Sacred Path changes.

I don't get Faith Healers. I supposed the theory was 'boost the better building more' but it seems odd. Water wheels come late enough that the extra faith won't help much with establishing a religion, and 1 science is pretty small at that stage of the game.

Fertility Rites makes Shrines really powerful, and practically guarantees a religion just from building them. I don't have a good solution for this while leaving the focus on the Shrine. I'd rather see Religious buildings (shrine, temple, faith-purchased) provide +2 Food and Food buildings (granary, herbalist, etc) provide +2 Faith. These might fall under the 'new functions' category.

God of Commerce means Carthage always gets a religion (assuming the cycling lost connection gets fixed) and probably puts Askia in the same spot. It's a tough one, as it's situationally great for two civs already while being fairly weak for anyone that needs to build roads.

God King didn't need a buff.

Goddess of Festivals change, what's the purpose? Feels like a gold was sprinkled in just for the sake of buffing it without having much direction. It doesn't make the Pantheon better at generating a religion or reward you for picking a Pantheon for the early benefits while knowing you won't get a religion.

Goddess of Love design is flawed. The mod is stacked up so that you get a pretty linear growth rate, so rewards should not scale by era. Rather, food needed should be examined, and an 'empire population' point for a Great Prophet picked, then scaled to that. 25 population seems like a good place to aim. That's 22 growths, or 9 faith per growth. Higher than that weights it towards 'first,' less than that weights it towards 'last.' 10 seems like a nice round number that makes it a nice one, considering 5 GAP per citizen doesn't help a ton early and stops being useful late game.

Religious Settlements needs to offer significantly more faith than Goddess of Love to have the same faith output. Double or triple. Border growth for 1st / 2nd / 3rd / 4th instance costs 20 / 50 / 100 / 160, -20% puts that at 16 / 40 / 80 / 128, total costs of 16 / 56 / 136 / 264. In time to aid with gaining a religion, you only have the Monument. 30 per growth means you'll need 7 border growths to get half a religion, which is doable by Turn 90 with three cities.

Goddess of Wisdom seems alright. Might give it 1 more Faith in Capital. Averaging 50 science per turn in turns 40 through 90 is asking a lot.

Polytheism, I don't know what to do with it. I like what you had in mind, but it's a new function.

 

[PurpleMentat]

On Sacred Path, that's 3 Forest or 3 Jungle, not mixed, right? Because we can't mix them, not for the function's current model (and it'd be a slow PITA to implement hybrid feature yield pulls).

It was intended to be mixed, as it's overpowered at 1 per 2 and kinda underpowered at 1 per 3 with them separate.

 

[Funak]

It was intended to be mixed, as it's overpowered at 1 per 2 and kinda underpowered at 1 per 3 with them separate.

i think with 3 range one for every 3 is fine. with 2 range one for every 2 seems kinda fine as well

 

[Gazebo]

It was intended to be mixed, as it's overpowered at 1 per 2 and kinda underpowered at 1 per 3 with them separate.

That's unfortunately not viable, as the current model uses an independent loop method to set values for certain yields.

G

 

[PurpleMentat]

I thought the 'near cities' pantheons were all range 2 still? Side note: having a 'within X' on the Pantheon would make things more accessible to new users than 'near'.

 

[Gazebo]

I thought the 'near cities' pantheons were all range 2 still? Side note: having a 'within X' on the Pantheon would make things more accessible to new users than 'near'.

I think we're discussing two different things. I'm talking about the mixing of forests/jungles in the same yield calc, not max distance of the scan. If that (the latter) is what needs to change, I can do that.

G

 

[PurpleMentat]

Right, the jungle / forest mix is off the table, so now we were discussing balance point of Sacred Paths and if it needs to change in any way.

 

[Gazebo]

Right, the jungle / forest mix is off the table, so now we were discussing balance point of Sacred Paths and if it needs to change in any way.

We can increase the distance to 3 if desired.
G

 

[Edaka]

You do realize that this would mean less variety, not more, right?



This sounds extremely boring and one-dimensional, there are already over 10 pantheons that are useful early on, how many more could you possibly need?
More variety is always better.

What I meant with 'more variety' was actually picking the beliefs that noone ever picks more often. I'm not sure how creating more viable options would reduce variety. I mean, how many users here honestly pick God-King at least semi-frequently? Maybe I'm the minority here, but I don't see a pantheon that only has late-game bonuses fun.

I like where Gidoza is going with his pantheon revisions. Perhaps I could offer my own two cents on some of them:

Not really sure where the gold and the science on Faith Healers is coming from or what purpose it's supposed to serve. Too bad I don't have a better suggestion

God of Commerce could get faith per active trade route and have its faith from city connections reduced to compensate. That sounds like a new function, though, but I have a little hope it's not.

You know my opinion on God-King - some say it doesn't need a buff, but I don't see myself picking it otherwise. Probably just a personal preference, though, but I'd be happy to see it receive any kind of early-game relevance.

Goddess of Wisdom's faith still seems extremely low, especially in comparison to your proposed God of Craftsmen. Maybe have it give faith every time you research a tech? Although I can see how this could be exploitable by delaying techs research by 1 turn and stockpiling them until, ultimately, picking the pantheon.

Not sure if Monument to the Gods needs +4 faith. I thought it was weak at +2, but +4 seems a little excessive. +3 would be fine, imo.

Everything else looks good to me as far as I can tell. Nice job on writing all that up!

 

[Bromar1]

God of the Sea
+2 Faith from Fishing Boats and Atolls. +2 Food in coastal cities.

I'd rather have +2 production over +2 food. Coastal cities don't always have great production tiles and they don't need food because they get plenty from fish etc.

 

[Funak]

What I meant with 'more variety' was actually picking the beliefs that noone ever picks more often. I'm not sure how creating more viable options would reduce variety. I mean, how many users here honestly pick God-King at least semi-frequently? Maybe I'm the minority here, but I don't see a pantheon that only has late-game bonuses fun.

Well, some late-game bonuses as opposed to just early-game bonuses means more variety.
And I have personally picked God-King 6 times in the latest version, sure that's just 6 times out of like 30 or 40 games but it is still valid.

Not really sure where the gold and the science on Faith Healers is coming from or what purpose it's supposed to serve. Too bad I don't have a better suggestion

Not even sure where the buildings are coming from, what do healing have to do with watermills?
This is one of the pantheons that I would never considering picking as it is now, and this tweak does not change that.

God of Commerce could get faith per active trade route and have its faith from city connections reduced to compensate. That sounds like a new function, though, but I have a little hope it's not.

I think letting you get +2 faith every time a trade-route moves (Portugal style) makes sense. Other than that I think the yields provided in the current version are fine.

Goddess of Wisdom's faith still seems extremely low, especially in comparison to your proposed God of Craftsmen. Maybe have it give faith every time you research a tech? Although I can see how this could be exploitable by delaying techs research by 1 turn and stockpiling them until, ultimately, picking the pantheon.

Think that's a whole new function again, so it's probably a no-go. That being said I'm not a fan of Goddess of wisdom. Wonder if giving it Faith from libraries would make sense.

I'd rather have +2 production over +2 food. Coastal cities don't always have great production tiles and they don't need food because they get plenty from fish etc.

This have been up before, and it isn't exactly about what coastal cities need, it is what makes sense, and food from worshiping the ocean makes a lot more sense than production.

 

[Gidoza]

Yesssss...this is awesome feedback! I think PurpleMentat and Edaka have hit all the main problems on the head though, with Funak showing up with some good potential solutions. The below-mentioned are all weird, though, I think everyone agrees on that point.

I don't get Faith Healers. I supposed the theory was 'boost the better building more' but it seems odd. Water wheels come late enough that the extra faith won't help much with establishing a religion, and 1 science is pretty small at that stage of the game.

Not really sure where the gold and the science on Faith Healers is coming from or what purpose it's supposed to serve. Too bad I don't have a better suggestion

I will admit with Faith Healers that I'm not exactly sure what to do with it, either, but since "new features" is not an option, my thought process looked like this: most other Pantheons have something that boosts Faith, and something that boost something else, which is usually a general item of some kind (science, gold, etc...). Faster healing in friendly territory, but as the saying goes, "The best defence is a good offence." Faster healing can't be discounted for its power, though, so what I offered with the extra random Gold/Science on the buildings was what you might call "half" of an item buff. But, yeah...I have no idea why anyone would pick this, either.

Maybe some kind of combo could be made between, say...Faith Healers and Goddess of Love to polish out their weak points, and then we have room for another entirely different Pantheon? I don't know.

Fertility Rites makes Shrines really powerful, and practically guarantees a religion just from building them. I don't have a good solution for this while leaving the focus on the Shrine. I'd rather see Religious buildings (shrine, temple, faith-purchased) provide +2 Food and Food buildings (granary, herbalist, etc) provide +2 Faith. These might fall under the 'new functions' category.

You could be right, but I also don't know. This is one I just want to launch into and test, and be proved horribly wrong about...+3 Faith in a city per turn is good, but may or may not be good enough to get a Religion every game. I don't know how effective rushing Philosophy is.

God of Commerce means Carthage always gets a religion (assuming the cycling lost connection gets fixed) and probably puts Askia in the same spot. It's a tough one, as it's situationally great for two civs already while being fairly weak for anyone that needs to build roads.

I think letting you get +2 faith every time a trade-route moves (Portugal style) makes sense. Other than that I think the yields provided in the current version are fine.

It's an oddball Pantheon, and if it's going to be about City Connections, then I'm not sure what we can do with it other than giving City-Connection-dependent Civs just one more option among others, and ignoring all other Civs in the matter. I personally don't like the idea - but making this Pantheon any weaker also makes it pointless.

Anyways, Funak's idea could be interesting if it replaced the current option. Is that adding a new feature if we nuke an old one? It would need some kind of compensation, though, as Caravans aren't swift to get and the long-term benefits wouldn't be all that powerful. Maybe start with a Caravan, or get +1 trade route?

God King didn't need a buff.

You know my opinion on God-King - some say it doesn't need a buff, but I don't see myself picking it otherwise. Probably just a personal preference, though, but I'd be happy to see it receive any kind of early-game relevance.

God-King is super-powerful, and at the same time the likelihood that you can't use it is pretty high. I think both your arguments have merit - I AM curious how far the +1 Faith in the Capital could go, though.

Goddess of Festivals change, what's the purpose? Feels like a gold was sprinkled in just for the sake of buffing it without having much direction. It doesn't make the Pantheon better at generating a religion or reward you for picking a Pantheon for the early benefits while knowing you won't get a religion.

Yeah you're basically right. Actually, if I were to add a buff here, I would give it some kind of Monopoly buff (I dunno, +33% to the Monopoly bonus). Thus you have a Pantheon discrepancy: it either helps you if you have many different kinds of resources, or it helps you if you have a particular resource. Late-game, the original buff is pretty lame, though it's strong early on; add in the Monopoly idea, and the Pantheon could adapt to new situations.

Goddess of Love design is flawed. The mod is stacked up so that you get a pretty linear growth rate, so rewards should not scale by era. Rather, food needed should be examined, and an 'empire population' point for a Great Prophet picked, then scaled to that. 25 population seems like a good place to aim. That's 22 growths, or 9 faith per growth. Higher than that weights it towards 'first,' less than that weights it towards 'last.' 10 seems like a nice round number that makes it a nice one, considering 5 GAP per citizen doesn't help a ton early and stops being useful late game.

I agree that the Faith should probably not scale by Era, although I think the GAP should as GA gradually cost more and more. Faith is usually static under other normal circumstances, so I don't see why it should increase here, as you say. 10 or 12 both look like good values to me.

Religious Settlements needs to offer significantly more faith than Goddess of Love to have the same faith output. Double or triple. Border growth for 1st / 2nd / 3rd / 4th instance costs 20 / 50 / 100 / 160, -20% puts that at 16 / 40 / 80 / 128, total costs of 16 / 56 / 136 / 264. In time to aid with gaining a religion, you only have the Monument. 30 per growth means you'll need 7 border growths to get half a religion, which is doable by Turn 90 with three cities.

What if we did something really wild and just made the tile expansion bonus like +100% and balanced the Faith gain around that?

Goddess of Wisdom seems alright. Might give it 1 more Faith in Capital. Averaging 50 science per turn in turns 40 through 90 is asking a lot.

Goddess of Wisdom's faith still seems extremely low, especially in comparison to your proposed God of Craftsmen. Maybe have it give faith every time you research a tech? Although I can see how this could be exploitable by delaying techs research by 1 turn and stockpiling them until, ultimately, picking the pantheon.

Already suggested Faith upon researching a tech, Gazebo nixed it. Perhaps we could just drop the required Science for a Faith point to 8 instead of 10. Alternative idea is to give +1 Science per city and an additional +1 in the Capital. I'm trying to avoid the +2 Faith in Capital idea because it's becoming a filler in too many different places (yeah, I AM paying attention to diversity...).

Polytheism, I don't know what to do with it. I like what you had in mind, but it's a new function.

Well, we'll see. Perhaps we can poke at this one later.

 

[Funak]

Yesssss...this is awesome feedback! I think PurpleMentat and Edaka have hit all the main problems on the head though, with Funak showing up with some good potential solutions. The below-mentioned are all weird, though, I think everyone agrees on that point.

Oh well, here we go again.

Maybe some kind of combo could be made between, say...Faith Healers and Goddess of Love to polish out their weak points, and then we have room for another entirely different Pantheon? I don't know.

That's a terrible solution, Goddess of Love really does not need another support-function. It might need a few extra points of faith per growth, but that's really all.

You could be right, but I also don't know. This is one I just want to launch into and test, and be proved horribly wrong about...+3 Faith in a city per turn is good, but may or may not be good enough to get a Religion every game. I don't know how effective rushing Philosophy is.

+2 faith from shrines and temples pretty much equates to +2 faith in all cities when trying to get a religion, which is good, sure but nothing amazing. Still I would rather just see it at giving shrines +2food/faith and maybe 15%growth (or 10% I guess) rather than mixing in temples.
Alternatively you could add the faith directly to all cities and just keep the food and growth on the shrine. The faith really is not the main part of this pantheon, and for that reason it does not need to get better later on.

It's an oddball Pantheon, and if it's going to be about City Connections, then I'm not sure what we can do with it other than giving City-Connection-dependent Civs just one more option among others, and ignoring all other Civs in the matter. I personally don't like the idea - but making this Pantheon any weaker also makes it pointless.

Anyways, Funak's idea could be interesting if it replaced the current option. Is that adding a new feature if we nuke an old one? It would need some kind of compensation, though, as Caravans aren't swift to get and the long-term benefits wouldn't be all that powerful. Maybe start with a Caravan, or get +1 trade route?

I just meant keep the existing +2 faith/science on city-connections and add an extra bonus to moving trade-routes, you're not really likely to have that many (if any) trade-routes early on so this is more of a fun thing, feels sorta thematic with commerce however.

By the way, the yields gained by the moving trade-routes could really be any yield, faith, gold, food, production, culture (probably not science as that would just copy the portugese UA).

God-King is super-powerful, and at the same time the likelihood that you can't use it is pretty high. I think both your arguments have merit - I AM curious how far the +1 Faith in the Capital could go, though.

I just want to point out that a few months ago there were 2 people desperately trying to get God-King nerfed, for just giving way too much yields. It really does not need a buff.

Yeah you're basically right. Actually, if I were to add a buff here, I would give it some kind of Monopoly buff (I dunno, +33% to the Monopoly bonus). Thus you have a Pantheon discrepancy: it either helps you if you have many different kinds of resources, or it helps you if you have a particular resource. Late-game, the original buff is pretty lame, though it's strong early on; add in the Monopoly idea, and the Pantheon could adapt to new situations.

Pretty sure that's impossible with the existing functions.

I agree that the Faith should probably not scale by Era, although I think the GAP should as GA gradually cost more and more. Faith is usually static under other normal circumstances, so I don't see why it should increase here, as you say. 10 or 12 both look like good values to me.

Faith-costs does increase every era, so I don't have a problem with GoL scaling, it starts out as a pretty weak generator and ends up as a really powerful one, which is fine.

Already suggested Faith upon researching a tech, Gazebo nixed it. Perhaps we could just drop the required Science for a Faith point to 8 instead of 10. Alternative idea is to give +1 Science per city and an additional +1 in the Capital. I'm trying to avoid the +2 Faith in Capital idea because it's becoming a filler in too many different places (yeah, I AM paying attention to diversity...).

I don't think increasing the scaling power of this belief is the right way, it already gets really powerful later on. Imho even +2 faith from libraries makes more sense it that case. (kinda forces to you rush them, but your pantheon double-dips from them so that should be fine)