Weak (?) pantheons

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

I have been thinking about pantheons from a different point of view for a few days, and maybeit even helps here.
I am thinking about a strategy for Byzanz which will rely on creating as much faith as possible in the middle/late game. Which pantheon would be best for that? As things are now, I would say goddess of wisdom, because science ever increases, and even faster as the game goes on.

 

[Bromar1]

This have been up before, and it isn't exactly about what coastal cities need, it is what makes sense, and food from worshiping the ocean makes a lot more sense than production.

How does +2 production to monuments from earth mother make sense? Worshipping the earth makes your monument more productive? I think others would agree that thematic aspects should come second to gameplay.

 

[Funak]

How does +2 production to monuments from earth mother make sense? Worshipping the earth makes your monument more productive? I think others would agree that thematic aspects should come second to gameplay.

Worshiping mines and the earth leads to more production, I don't really see the problem with that.

I can agree that thematic aspects shouldn't stand in the way of needed gameplay changes, but this is nowhere near needed. God of the Sea is pretty damn powerful (and it's going to be even more powerful if the cost of workboats go down). There is no reason to go against the theme to buff a pantheon that's not in need of buffing.

 

[Edaka]

I don't think increasing the scaling power of this belief is the right way, it already gets really powerful later on. Imho even +2 faith from libraries makes more sense it that case. (kinda forces to you rush them, but your pantheon double-dips from them so that should be fine)

Libraries come too late, so not the best option. Really far into the tech tree, just like watermills - isn't that what makes Faith Healers kinda weak at the moment?

Worshiping mines and the earth leads to more production, I don't really see the problem with that.

I don't really see the analogy between monuments and the earth. Mines - sure, but monuments that are used to represent early source of culture growth - not really. Not saying that I don't like it or it should be changed, just pointing out that it's not terribly thematic, as Bromar1 noticed.

 

[Gazebo]

One quick request - I like where the Pantheons are moving, however can we deflate them all a little bit? A trend I'm noticing in the design iteration of Pantheons is that they're power-creeping each other. If we can bring them all down a notch, that'd be great.

G

 

[Funak]

Libraries come too late, so not the best option. Really far into the tech tree, just like watermills - isn't that what makes Faith Healers kinda weak at the moment?

Well Goddess of wisdom still gains faith from science, and libraries provide extra science meaning you'd rush them anyways. Compared to that, faith-healers provide no initial faith, and the bonus from watermills only gives that bonus.
It is kinda hard to explain but I think that's fine.

One quick request - I like where the Pantheons are moving, however can we deflate them all a little bit? A trend I'm noticing in the design iteration of Pantheons is that they're power-creeping each other. If we can bring them all down a notch, that'd be great.

Probably not possible, you can't exactly turn all the +faith on tiles to 1 instead of 2, it would just be too weak. So we'll have to adjust the rest of the pantheons around those existing ones.
+2 faith from mines, +2 production from monuments
+2 faith from plantations, +2 culture from markets
+2 faith +1 food from camps
+2 faith from fishing boast, +2 food in coastal cities
+2 faith from pastures, +1 culture per 3 plain tiles.
+3 faith from quarries, +2 culture from stoneworks
+3 faith from farms, +2 culture from granaries

These are pretty much the ones we have to adjust the others around.

 

[Bromar1]

Worshiping mines and the earth leads to more production, I don't really see the problem with that.

I can agree that thematic aspects shouldn't stand in the way of needed gameplay changes, but this is nowhere near needed. God of the Sea is pretty damn powerful (and it's going to be even more powerful if the cost of workboats go down). There is no reason to go against the theme to buff a pantheon that's not in need of buffing.

Yeah but there's also no reason to stack more food on top of a food heavy city. All the coastal resources give tons of food. It would make more sense for +2 production to a coastal city or +1 production to fishing boats.

@Gazebo could you elaborate a bit more on what would be a "new" function for pantheons? Does this mean that we can only use effects that already exist on pantheons? For example, I know +% production to ranged units already exists on Temple of Artemis. Would it be considered a "new" function if we put +% for ranged on a pantheon? (not really suggesting it, just an example)

 

[Gazebo]

Well Goddess of wisdom still gains faith from science, and libraries provide extra science meaning you'd rush them anyways. Compared to that, faith-healers provide no initial faith, and the bonus from watermills only gives that bonus.
It is kinda hard to explain but I think that's fine.



Probably not possible, you can't exactly turn all the +faith on tiles to 1 instead of 2, it would just be too weak. So we'll have to adjust the rest of the pantheons around those existing ones.
+2 faith from mines, +2 production from monuments
+2 faith from plantations, +2 culture from markets
+2 faith +1 food from camps
+2 faith from fishing boast, +2 food in coastal cities
+2 faith from pastures, +1 culture per 3 plain tiles.
+3 faith from quarries, +2 culture from stoneworks
+3 faith from farms, +2 culture from granaries

These are pretty much the ones we have to adjust the others around.

I understand that it is not easy, however I do think it to be a worthwhile endeavor, as one of my tasks over the next few iterations of the CBP will be a general 'deflation pass.'

G

 

[Funak]

@Gazebo could you elaborate a bit more on what would be a "new" function for pantheons? Does this mean that we can only use effects that already exist on pantheons? For example, I know +% production to ranged units already exists on Temple of Artemis. Would it be considered a "new" function if we put +% for ranged on a pantheon? (not really suggesting it, just an example)

Building-functions and pantheon-functions are not the same thing, so no it would not work.

I understand that it is not easy, however I do think it to be a worthwhile endeavor, as one of my tasks over the next few iterations of the CBP will be a general 'deflation pass.'

I don't actually think a deflation is a good idea, more yields to works with means more room to balance. You'd have to adjust the rest of the game around it naturally but still.

 

[Gazebo]

Building-functions and pantheon-functions are not the same thing, so no it would not work.



I don't actually think a deflation is a good idea, more yields to works with means more room to balance. You'd have to adjust the rest of the game around it naturally but still.

Right, I'm not going to overhaul anything, just making a pass on a few outliers. Mainly the 'on event, gain x' stuff.

G

 

[Edaka]

I like how Funak squeezed in his reversed version of God of the Open Skies with pastures providing faith again

Has it been considered to flat-out reduce the faith generation of tile improvement pantheons down to +1 from +2 and to +2 from +3? I certainly haven't been around long enough to know that and I understand that this might have been thoroughly discussed before. Now, halving the faith generation for those pantheons may sound like a wild idea, but I think there is at at least a couple of good things that change could (maybe) bring.

Firstly, that would make the balancing of other pantheons an easier task. As can be noticed, right now the fact that the tile improvement pantheons are undeniably the most reliable sources of faith makes the balancing of the rest of the pantheons a problem.

Another thing concerns the state of pantheons in general at the moment. They are strong and that's good, much better than the vanilla version, but sometimes I feel like they are too strong. Getting a pantheon as early as possible seems to be a very potent meta nowadays. Building a shrine first seems much better of a choice than building a monument first - the choice seems rather lopsided to the point where it doesn't seem like much of a choice. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I'm not really asking for anything, I'm just curious if anybody else thinks that way. I like how in CBP you get to choose out of two buildings right at the start, but it seems like one is rarely worth building over the other due to the difference in what you gain from both.

 

[Gazebo]

I like how Funak squeezed in his reversed version of God of the Open Skies with pastures providing faith again

Has it been considered to flat-out reduce the faith generation of tile improvement pantheons down to +1 from +2 and to +2 from +3? I certainly haven't been around long enough to know that and I understand that this might have been thoroughly discussed before. Now, halving the faith generation for those pantheons may sound like a wild idea, but I think there is at at least a couple of good things that change could (maybe) bring.

Firstly, that would make the balancing of other pantheons an easier task. As can be noticed, right now the fact that the tile improvement pantheons are undeniably the most reliable sources of faith makes the balancing of the rest of the pantheons a problem.

Another thing concerns the state of pantheons in general at the moment. They are strong and that's good, much better than the vanilla version, but sometimes I feel like they are too strong. Getting a pantheon as early as possible seems to be a very potent meta nowadays. Building a shrine first seems much better of a choice than building a monument first - the choice seems rather lopsided to the point where it doesn't seem like much of a choice. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I'm not really asking for anything, I'm just curious if anybody else thinks that way. I like how in CBP you get to choose out of two buildings right at the start, but it seems like one is rarely worth building over the other due to the difference in what you gain from both.

That's what I was asking about above (deflation of pantheons).

G

 

[Funak]

I like how Funak squeezed in his reversed version of God of the Open Skies with pastures providing faith again

Has it been considered to flat-out reduce the faith generation of tile improvement pantheons down to +1 from +2 and to +2 from +3? I certainly haven't been around long enough to know that and I understand that this might have been thoroughly discussed before. Now, halving the faith generation for those pantheons may sound like a wild idea, but I think there is at at least a couple of good things that change could (maybe) bring.

Main problem is that 2 is a lot more than 1 while 3 isn't that much more than 2, crazy right?
Also, bigger number always makes everything easier to balance, if the UI would allow it I'd suggest multiplying all existing yields by 10 to be able to do fractions. But that's not possible.

Another thing concerns the state of pantheons in general at the moment. They are strong and that's good, much better than the vanilla version, but sometimes I feel like they are too strong. Getting a pantheon as early as possible seems to be a very potent meta nowadays. Building a shrine first seems much better of a choice than building a monument first - the choice seems rather lopsided to the point where it doesn't seem like much of a choice. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I'm not really asking for anything, I'm just curious if anybody else thinks that way. I like how in CBP you get to choose out of two buildings right at the start, but it seems like one is rarely worth building over the other due to the difference in what you gain from both.

The pantheons are strong, but I don't think going shrine first is necessarily best every time. I mean I go scout -> monument -> shrine more often than shrine first.

 

[Gidoza]

Oh well, here we go again.

Just to clarify, Funak - when I said stuff was weird, I meant the Pantheons, and not your suggestions.

+2 faith from shrines and temples pretty much equates to +2 faith in all cities when trying to get a religion, which is good, sure but nothing amazing. Still I would rather just see it at giving shrines +2food/faith and maybe 15%growth (or 10% I guess) rather than mixing in temples.
Alternatively you could add the faith directly to all cities and just keep the food and growth on the shrine. The faith really is not the main part of this pantheon, and for that reason it does not need to get better later on.

Okay, I'll re-adjust this and nix the Temples.

I just meant keep the existing +2 faith/science on city-connections and add an extra bonus to moving trade-routes, you're not really likely to have that many (if any) trade-routes early on so this is more of a fun thing, feels sorta thematic with commerce however.

By the way, the yields gained by the moving trade-routes could really be any yield, faith, gold, food, production, culture (probably not science as that would just copy the portugese UA).

But is this an extra "feature?"

Faith-costs does increase every era, so I don't have a problem with GoL scaling, it starts out as a pretty weak generator and ends up as a really powerful one, which is fine.

The thing is that while Faith costs increase every Era, the general Faith generation from mostly anything at all does not. I am going to make a separate thread on this issue in a few days as it actually is important in how it affects several things. In any case, it's a separate issue - I'm cool with letting one Pantheon scale for the sake of uniqueness.

I don't think increasing the scaling power of this belief is the right way, it already gets really powerful later on. Imho even +2 faith from libraries makes more sense it that case. (kinda forces to you rush them, but your pantheon double-dips from them so that should be fine)

I think this is the one that's giving us the most trouble ATM.

One quick request - I like where the Pantheons are moving, however can we deflate them all a little bit? A trend I'm noticing in the design iteration of Pantheons is that they're power-creeping each other. If we can bring them all down a notch, that'd be great.

Still not 100% sure what you mean by this, Gazebo, but I'm starting to figure it out by reading the conversation. Could you be a bit more specific?

By Edaka: Has it been considered to flat-out reduce the faith generation of tile improvement pantheons down to +1 from +2 and to +2 from +3? I certainly haven't been around long enough to know that and I understand that this might have been thoroughly discussed before. Now, halving the faith generation for those pantheons may sound like a wild idea, but I think there is at at least a couple of good things that change could (maybe) bring.

Yes, it has been. *raises hand* My first post of my Pantheon changes included a second version of the list that did exactly this, but had a secondary factor that basically made all Pantheons scale, because I didn't want to disrupt the "flow" of things too much. I could easily remove that part of it, though.

I resonate with Funak's concerns, however - if we reduce some of the values to +1/+2 instead of +2/+3, I will have to change some of the rules in balancing the Pantheons in general, or it'll be much harder to balance. Secondary to this is the fact that this would imply less Faith incoming into the game, and so the costs of things will need to be rebalanced to compensate. But I'm more than pleased to give this a shot.

Gazebo - if this is what you have in mind by "deflating," here is my suggestion on how we go about this.

1. Let's finish what we've started here already by working on things according to the original model. I'll make another adjusted list shortly based on recent suggestions, and we can test that out and balance it.

2. Once we get some feedback on how that is working, then we can concentrate on "deflation" and see how that works.

3. I would recommend creating a whole new thread for the "deflated" version of Pantheons when we are ready to tackle them, so this thread doesn't become a confused mess.


How does this plan sound?

 

[Gazebo]

Just to clarify, Funak - when I said stuff was weird, I meant the Pantheons, and not your suggestions.




Okay, I'll re-adjust this and nix the Temples.




But is this an extra "feature?"




The thing is that while Faith costs increase every Era, the general Faith generation from mostly anything at all does not. I am going to make a separate thread on this issue in a few days as it actually is important in how it affects several things. In any case, it's a separate issue - I'm cool with letting one Pantheon scale for the sake of uniqueness.




I think this is the one that's giving us the most trouble ATM.




Still not 100% sure what you mean by this, Gazebo, but I'm starting to figure it out by reading the conversation. Could you be a bit more specific?




Yes, it has been. *raises hand* My first post of my Pantheon changes included a second version of the list that did exactly this, but had a secondary factor that basically made all Pantheons scale, because I didn't want to disrupt the "flow" of things too much. I could easily remove that part of it, though.

I resonate with Funak's concerns, however - if we reduce some of the values to +1/+2 instead of +2/+3, I will have to change some of the rules in balancing the Pantheons in general, or it'll be much harder to balance. Secondary to this is the fact that this would imply less Faith incoming into the game, and so the costs of things will need to be rebalanced to compensate. But I'm more than pleased to give this a shot.

Gazebo - if this is what you have in mind by "deflating," here is my suggestion on how we go about this.

1. Let's finish what we've started here already by working on things according to the original model. I'll make another adjusted list shortly based on recent suggestions, and we can test that out and balance it.

2. Once we get some feedback on how that is working, then we can concentrate on "deflation" and see how that works.

3. I would recommend creating a whole new thread for the "deflated" version of Pantheons when we are ready to tackle them, so this thread doesn't become a confused mess.


How does this plan sound?

Let's get them balanced around each other, then we'll deal with everything else.

G

 

[Gidoza]

Okay, made some more adjustments to the previous list based on input, and sometimes my own inspirations...(see Goddess of Festivals for that one).

All Pantheons that have changed from the current state of the game are listed (thus God-King no longer on the list as I have left it alone for now).

Any Pantheon with an * Asterisk has been changed from the LAST POST I made with a Pantheon list, so you can compare the difference.

I think we're getting close!




PANTHEON LIST #3

Ancestor Worship
+2 Faith for every 5 Citizens in a city, and +3 Culture in the Capital.

Cult Of Nature
+1 Faith and Culture for every 2 Mountains within 3 tiles of a City, and Natural Wonders gain +3 Faith and +2 Culture.

Faith Healers*
+15 HP healed per turn in friendly, non-attrition territory. +2 Faith and +1 Gold from Wells; +3 Faith and +1 Culture from Water Mills.

Fertility Rites*
+2 Food and Faith from Shrines. 15% faster Growth Rate.

God of Commerce*
+3 Faith and +2 Science in cities with a City Connection.

God of Craftsmen
+1 Faith for every 10 gold per turn, and +2 Production and Faith in cities with a Specialist.

God of War
+2 Science from Barracks, and gain Faith if you win a battle. Formula = 120% of killed unit's strength.

Goddess of Festivals*
+1 Faith and Culture for each Luxury Resource you control. An additional +1 Faith and Culture for each Luxury Resource you control, scaling with Era.

Goddess of Love
Gain 12 Faith and 5 Golden Age Points every time a citizen is born. Bonus scales with Era and Game Speed.

Goddess of Protection
+40% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength. +3 Faith and +1 Culture from Walls and Castles.

Goddess of Wisdom*
+1 Faith for every 10 Science per turn, and +1 Science and +1 Faith in every city.

Monument to the Gods
+4 Faith and +1 Culture from World Wonders. +15% Production of Pre-Renaissance Wonders.

Polytheism*
+3 Faith and +1 Happiness in the Capital, and +1 Happiness for every known Civilization with a Pantheon.

Religious Settlements*
30% faster border growth, and gain 25 Faith every time a city expands its borders. Bonus scales with Era and Game Speed.

Sacred Path
+1 Faith and +1 Culture for every 3 Jungle/Forest tiles near a City (within 3 tiles).




COMMENTS FOR DISCUSSION

Faith Healers - I think all of us are mystified about this Pantheon, and I was unable to interpret anything specific from the discussion. Any other ideas for it? Maybe raise the healage rate to +20 to make it a really nasty war Pantheon?

God of Commerce - If the Trade Route thing doesn't work, then what? If it does, do we need to use the City Connection aspect at all?

Goddess of Festivals - If this idea works, then it would keep the same early-game potential for generating a Religion without suffering in the late game.

Goddess of Love - I'm aware that this may be strong as it is, and I'll be ready for toning it down after testing.

Goddess of Wisdom - I made a new proposal here: the original 2 science will be maintained as soon as a second city exists, and then there is that tad of extra Faith that might be needed. Need feedback.

God-King - Leaving it in its original form, although I didn't think +1 Faith in the Capital was so bad.

 

[Gidoza]

Let's get them balanced around each other, then we'll deal with everything else.

G

Awesome.

 

[Funak]

But is this an extra "feature?"

That's a really good question, let's ask the main man.


Deer Mr Gazebo.

Could a pantheon have an effect to add <yield> per turn for every outgoing trade-route in a city? Alternatively letting traderoutes generate <yield> every time it moves (like the Portuguese UA)

 

[PurpleMentat]

I still don't like Faith Healers. The building yields are mostly pointless. They don't boost you if you can't found a religion. It ends up being similar to God-King: a powerful effect for Faith bonus civs, but with some extra yields tacked on to buildings that are high priority in every city.

Not sure if God of Commerce trade route movement is possible or new function. Seems pretty powerful. I tend to have one or two trade routes by the time I get a pantheon. IIRC, "on movement" is for each tile, so that's 8 faith and 4 culture a turn. Still, it'll be nice that Venice can use the Pantheon ^.^

Why was Goddess of Festivals faith gen nerfed? I get you're trying to scale it, but you're going to control more luxuries later than you do early. You're setting it so you need 6 unique luxuries in your starting area to get half a religion out of it, which is rarely the case. Remember, the Era scaling factor for Ancient and Classical are both x1. Scaling doesn't kick in until Medieval.

Goddess of Protection is interesting to me now. The RCS component still may as well not exist. Cities in CBP do so little damage that any percentile scaling under three digits isn't going to have a big effect.

Goddess of Wisdom is very interesting. Have to make a trade-off: go wide for faith and religion, and eat the science costs, or not.

Religious Settlements still needs a lot more faith. See prior post for maths about it. Brazil, alone on South America TSL, rushing Brazilwood Camps on as many tiles as possible, couldn't found a religion with it.

 

[Gazebo]

That's a really good question, let's ask the main man.


Deer Mr Gazebo.

Could a pantheon have an effect to add <yield> per turn for every outgoing trade-route in a city? Alternatively letting traderoutes generate <yield> every time it moves (like the Portuguese UA)

Possible? Yes. Problematic? Yes, at least the latter one. The TR movement one isn't so bad, but the other one (the # of TR from a city) would most likely need AI support, which I'd like to avoid).

How critical is it? I'm trying to be lean here - no other functions we can use from the beliefs.xml and/or the belief extensions added by the CP?

G