NukeAJS
King
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 850
Simple question: Overall, who do you think is the weakest new civ in G&Ks?
I'm not talking UAs here. I'm talking the entire Civ. Also, Spain isn't new so I'm not including them.
I'm throwing my vote to the Dutch. Polders are great, but only being allowed on flood plains and marshes make it too infrequent to use unless you get a desert start (which hasn't happen to me yet). Sure they have a marsh start-bias, but an entire UTI being used three times still isn't not enough. Basically, it's a great tile improvement that doesn't get utilized enough. It's like being the Inca and getting two mountains near you except that there are usually far many more mountains than there are marsh tiles. Even if you do get a lot of marsh tiles, you're cursed with marsh tiles until guilds.
The sea beggar is interesting. I once got to raze three cities in less than ten turns in a game just from using my fleet of eight beggars supported by three frigates -- great fun. Starting with supply is awesome, it's obviously the unit's strong point and possibly the best thing about the civ; all that being said, and this applies to privateers too, upgrading to destroyers basically makes the unit a sitting duck or a money drain for 40 turns after ironclads come out but before you can upgrade to destroyers. I never thought I'd say ironclads are awesome, but being able to turn caravels into ironclads is a thing of beauty. Some will say -- but prize ships! I say that you'd need a lot of frigates supporting your beggars to be able to fend off a modestly-sized ironclad fleet.
Their UA is ... eh. It's anti-war mongering because no one will make meaningful trades with you if you are a menace to the world; although when a civ does ask for every luxury you have, at least it's an option to trade instead of a slap in the face. So it seems to favor tall-empires except that I rarely have a happiness problem when I play tall anyways. It's most useful for selling resources for money, but that isn't as effective as it once was. It's still a nice though. Overall it's just -- eh.
Overall, the Dutch are too diversified. They have a trading UA geared towards happiness, a ship specialized in taking cities, and a (primarily food) tile improvement that doesn't get to be utilized often. While there are other new civs that are diverse, their unique things are strong. Carthage and free harbors at the start of the game comes to mind.
If you want to get into improving them, I'd say keep polders and the East India company the same. However, make their good sea beggar a great sea beggar by allowing it to moving after attacking but only after attacking a naval unit, not a city. This would allow them to do hit-and-runs against ironclads in the open ocean but prevent a city from getting attacked eight times by eight sea beggars in one turn. That's just too powerful.
I'm not talking UAs here. I'm talking the entire Civ. Also, Spain isn't new so I'm not including them.
I'm throwing my vote to the Dutch. Polders are great, but only being allowed on flood plains and marshes make it too infrequent to use unless you get a desert start (which hasn't happen to me yet). Sure they have a marsh start-bias, but an entire UTI being used three times still isn't not enough. Basically, it's a great tile improvement that doesn't get utilized enough. It's like being the Inca and getting two mountains near you except that there are usually far many more mountains than there are marsh tiles. Even if you do get a lot of marsh tiles, you're cursed with marsh tiles until guilds.
The sea beggar is interesting. I once got to raze three cities in less than ten turns in a game just from using my fleet of eight beggars supported by three frigates -- great fun. Starting with supply is awesome, it's obviously the unit's strong point and possibly the best thing about the civ; all that being said, and this applies to privateers too, upgrading to destroyers basically makes the unit a sitting duck or a money drain for 40 turns after ironclads come out but before you can upgrade to destroyers. I never thought I'd say ironclads are awesome, but being able to turn caravels into ironclads is a thing of beauty. Some will say -- but prize ships! I say that you'd need a lot of frigates supporting your beggars to be able to fend off a modestly-sized ironclad fleet.
Their UA is ... eh. It's anti-war mongering because no one will make meaningful trades with you if you are a menace to the world; although when a civ does ask for every luxury you have, at least it's an option to trade instead of a slap in the face. So it seems to favor tall-empires except that I rarely have a happiness problem when I play tall anyways. It's most useful for selling resources for money, but that isn't as effective as it once was. It's still a nice though. Overall it's just -- eh.
Overall, the Dutch are too diversified. They have a trading UA geared towards happiness, a ship specialized in taking cities, and a (primarily food) tile improvement that doesn't get to be utilized often. While there are other new civs that are diverse, their unique things are strong. Carthage and free harbors at the start of the game comes to mind.
If you want to get into improving them, I'd say keep polders and the East India company the same. However, make their good sea beggar a great sea beggar by allowing it to moving after attacking but only after attacking a naval unit, not a city. This would allow them to do hit-and-runs against ironclads in the open ocean but prevent a city from getting attacked eight times by eight sea beggars in one turn. That's just too powerful.