welsh or british please?

[ComradeDavo]

Nowadays England, Scotland and wales are in my opinion joined at the hip - seperation would be devestating. For the purpose of Civ, I think an English civ and a Celtic civ is fine, there's no real need for a welsh or scottish one....I mean if you do that then are you gonna make a seperate civ for each Viking nation? Or for each Germanic tribe? Or for each Italian city state? Thats just silly. Best as it is.

 

[pontypool]

Nowadays England, Scotland and wales are in my opinion joined at the hip - seperation would be devestating. For the purpose of Civ, I think an English civ and a Celtic civ is fine, there's no real need for a welsh or scottish one....I mean if you do that then are you gonna make a seperate civ for each Viking nation? Or for each Germanic tribe? Or for each Italian city state? Thats just silly. Best as it is.

True, but there was two celtic tribes in the uk, quite different from one another.

 

[Matty R]

have you ever heard of the ancient britons

Nope. I don't like punk music.

 

[viz]

I would imagine that the criteria for getting into a Civilization game comes down to the impact the nation had on its region or in some cases the world. Just as the Leader criteria comes down to the impact the Leader had on their nation.

According to Wikipedia, Wales has never been a sovereign nation.

Also as far as the UK goes - 83% of the UK are English and there are 3 times more people living in London than the whole of Wales.

 

[pontypool]

Why is the population of london relevant to anything here? What do you think the population of ancient egypt was? far far less than 3 million id bet.
And i dont care what wikepedia says, is wikepedia god or something? I used the term early welsh and specifically said wales was not a nation, but there was early welsh ancestory in wales 10 thousand years ago. read the posts before you reply.

Anyway this thread was just to ask if there was a welsh or british civilization to download.

I would imagine that the criteria for getting into a Civilization game comes down to the impact the nation had on its region or in some cases the world. Just as the Leader criteria comes down to the impact the Leader had on their nation.

According to Wikipedia, Wales has never been a sovereign nation.

Also as far as the UK goes - 83% of the UK are English and there are 3 times more people living in London than the whole of Wales.

 

[viz]

Why is the population of london relevant to anything here? What do you think the population of ancient egypt was? far far less than 3 million id bet.
And i dont care what wikepedia says, is wikepedia god or something? I used the term early welsh and specifically said wales was not a nation, but there was early welsh ancestory in wales 10 thousand years ago. read the posts before you reply.

Anyway this thread was just to ask if there was a welsh or british civilization to download.

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/people/index.html#rem2

Egypt had between 1.5 and 5 million by these estimates. Talking about 'Britain' as a nation was the reason for the population comparison. You need to calm down my friend, did I say wikipedia was god?

So on the subject of Wales you are saying that even though Wales didn't exist the people that lived there were Welsh...

And I said even after it did become a nation it was never under full sovereign control of itself...

 

[ulsterman88]

Dont forget about N.I wer part of the UK too

 

[pontypool]

http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/people/index.html#rem2


So on the subject of Wales you are saying that even though Wales didn't exist the people that lived there were Welsh...

And I said even after it did become a nation it was never under full sovereign control of itself...

Yes correct. the term WALES did not exist in wales 10 k years ago, but the welsh language existed.
Language being a defining requirment of any culture, which is why i said "early welsh" how else would you refer to your ancestors? early non nationality peoples who speak primative welsh, or early welsh?

The concept of nationality didnt exist at all 10 thousand years ago so technically you can't even claim that ancient egyptians was EGYPTIANS not in the way modern people would think anyway. It's more accurate to say the people of egypt , and the early welsh people was people from wales, or whatever it was called back then.. whats the difference? i would say none.

I thought it was qutie obvious that i was referring to welsh ancestory 10 k years ago. but obviously certain people need clarification that I dont imply their was a civilization called wales. If you need to look up the definition of ancestory go ahead, i think its a waste of time to explain something this obvious. if your that obtuse you won't get it anyway.

The celtic people of lower britain and north west france was a distinct celtic tribe, seperate from the celts that inhabited scotland ireland and the isle of man. The celtic people of lower britain and north west france emerged from WALES . Hense they are welsh ancestors, (being welsh ancestors doesnt imply a nation known as wales) E.G Just as american ancestors arent early americans but english.
this celtic tribe disintegrated back to wales, but the native language they spoke, is still spoken today, thats indisputable evidence of a continuing civilization ( even if the name of that civilization did change)
This example is not just true for wales, but most civilizations on the planet, including france and england.

 

[viz]

Yes correct. the term WALES did not exist in wales 10 k years ago, but the welsh language existed.
Language being a defining requirment of any culture, which is why i said "early welsh" how else would you refer to your ancestors? early non nationality peoples who speak primative welsh, or early welsh?

That's a fair point, but ALL early nations began the same way, nomads for thousands of years until they settle and found a nation. Wales is no different, just because it took 10,000 years for them to settle doesn't mean they deserve to be classed as a 'Civilisation' quite the contrary. The Civilisation begins when the nation is born not when the nomads and tribes are wandering the land. Hell we could go back MILLIONS of years in that case could we not?

 

[pontypool]

That's a fair point, but ALL early nations began the same way, nomads for thousands of years until they settle and found a nation. Wales is no different, just because it took 10,000 years for them to settle doesn't mean they deserve to be classed as a 'Civilisation' quite the contrary. The Civilisation begins when the nation is born not when the nomads and tribes are wandering the land. Hell we could go back MILLIONS of years in that case could we not?

No. because the celts that inhabited wales 10 thousand years ago are recognized as a civilization officially, they don't need to be recognized as a nation by you.
Although because of the concept of borders and territories didn't exist in the same way as they do today, its more popular to call the early celts that came from wales simply celts, giving no mention to where they arose, couple this with the fact that its preferable for english people to not specify that celts came from wales, but instead inhabited the whole of the uk (for reasons of national pride) this way the english don't need to acknowledge the fact that one of their neighbours existed as a civilization before them.

Regardeless, like i said its official that these celts was indeed a civilization not "wandering nomads" they had their own language and their own laws (evidence of paying their workers at stonhendge) their own architecture , their own art (as embedded on weapons amongst other things) they settled into communities and i dare say they had music. Which meets all the requirments of a civilization.

Definition of NATION

na·tion Pronunciation (nshn)
n.
1.
a. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
b. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
2. The government of a sovereign state.
3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: "Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity" Robert Conquest.
4.
a. A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
b. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe.

Take your pick... id go with 3
now these customs language and history are alien to england but native to wales, I think that implies that they are specifically welsh ancestors not "britons"

 

[pontypool]

I would also like to point out that another reason why these celts aren't referred to as early welsh ancestors but broadly celts of brition. Is just a matter of perspective. To call them not british or english but welsh would require that back then england and wales existed as two seperate territories /nations but because of the fact that there was no other civilizations present.. the distinction was never made. Regardless... its a well known fact that these celts came from wales specifically.. so in an age where mutiple nations exist on the same land, isnt it just easier to refer to them as welsh ancestors ? instead of just celts in briton isles?

If we had to take your example, then nobody really has any ancestors, because 99 % of the time the ancestors of any country did not have the same name/ language or whatever else as their modern counterparts.
Are the babylonians not ancestors of modern day iraq? even though the country name is different and the language and the culture, but because of the simple fact they inhabited the same land? now what if the babylonians spread from iraq into persia. do they now cease to be early iraq's but just babylonians of the middle east?
Think about it.. its not brain surgery.

 

[Datian]

One funny detail about the word "welsh" : the Welsh, the Wallons of Belgium and the Wallaches (not sure of the spelling in english) of Romania all share the same etymological root, which means... "the others"

Most of the people called themselves "the men of ...", and some called their neighbours, who didn't care for a name, "the others", which is, if you think about it, quite accurate

 

[pontypool]

not really, because the english word is wales, welsh do not call it wales.

 

[ancestral]

not really, because the english word is wales, welsh do not call it wales.

The Welsh call it Cymru (pronounced CUM-ree, and trill your 'R').

But then of course Spain is España, Ireland is Eire, Japan is Nihon, etc.

 

[Quotey]

Japan = Nippon, I think. <_<

I think Eire is just slang for the Republic, but probably not.

 

[viz]

Pontypool, you are making this debate into something about ancestry as opposed to nationality. As for your definition of 'Nation' I'd go with 1a, 1b and 2 before 3 and 4 as anyone would (dictionaries list item definitions in the order of common popular knowledge). Every nation has ancestry but that has nothing to do with the nation and it's status as such.

With regards to the Babylonians, they occupied the same land and during that time the people were just that - Babylonians, but Iraqi is the nationality of the people of Iraq today, ancestors yes but different nations. Also language has nothing to do with nationality, many nations speak other languages it doesn't mean they are part of the original home of that language and many nations share a common history as your definition of Nation pointed out but it doesn't mean they are the same nation. The Celts where indeed a civilisation, nobody is disputing that fact, just because some of those celts lived in what is now Wales doesn't mean they are 'Welsh', as I said ancestors are not part of a nation if that nation does not yet exist. The Celts where Celts not Welsh. Just as Americans are American etc.

Like I said we could go back millions of years down the ancestry road and we would arrive at one point - Africa. This is why ancestry is nothing to do with nationality. If we all use ancestry as a pointer of our nations birth we would all be Africans...

I know what you're saying but surely you must also understand what I am saying?

 

[Truronian]

The Celts in this game have no link to the Celts of Britain/Brittany whatsoever, they are actually more of a Gallic civ. I don't see why Firaxis couldn't have just called them the Gauls...

 

[sydhe]

Japan = Nippon, I think. <_<

I think Eire is just slang for the Republic, but probably not.

Éire is the Irish name and Ireland the English. I think.

 

[Rule Brittania]

Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England and a few overseas possesions makes up Britain there for England does=Britain and so does scotland wales and northen ireland. they may be four whole countrys but they all been brought together at some point in history to become Britain.

 

[Datian]

Wales/Welsh, Eire/Ire-land, obviously it's the same word with different spellings. I had never heard the Cymru thing but the two words, one given by the people themselves and one by their neighbours is quite possible. Some moslems use the word "roumi" to name non-moslems, since the ones they met at Constantinopolis called themselves Romans.

As for Japan vs Nippon/Nihon, the latter is the japanese word. In chinese it's more or less "Cipanguo" (Ni-hon-koku, Ci-pan-guo, same etymology once again), the word came to Europe through Marco Polo, and turned into Japan. Once again, Europeans proved their lousy skills with asian languages