welsh or british please?

[pontypool]

Pontypool, you are making this debate into something about ancestry as opposed to nationality. As for you definition of 'Nation' I'd go with 1a, 1b and 2 before 3 and 4 as anyone would (dictionaries list item definitions in the order of common popular knowledge). Every nation has ancestry but that has nothing to do with the nation and it's status as such.

With regards to the Babylonians, they occupied the same land and during that time the people were just that - Babylonians, but Iraqi is the nationality of the people of Iraq today, ancestors yes but different nations. Also language has nothing to do with nationality, many nations speak other languages it doesn't mean they are part of the original home of that language and many nations share a common history as your definition of Nation pointed out but it doesn't mean they are the same nation. The Celts where indeed a civilization, nobody is disputing that fact, just because some of those celts lived in what is now Wales doesn't mean they are 'Welsh', as I said ancestors are not part of a nation if that nation does not yet exist. The Celts where Celts not Welsh. Just as Americans are American etc.

Like I said we could go back millions of years down the ancestry road and we would arrive at one point - Africa. This is why ancestry is nothing to do with nationality. If we all use ancestry as a pointer of our nations birth we would all be Africans...

I know what you're saying but surely you must also understand what I am saying?

My original posts was about ancestory and how I wanted a civilization that was more familiar to me, you brought up the nationality thing.
I don't care about nationality it's a modern concept to inspire patriotism.
The celts spoke a very specific brand of celtic which is welsh,they had a unique culture, made their mark on the land and they lived here in wales .
Which as far as im concerned makes them an ancients welsh ancestors.
Which is what i was looking for, a more familiar civilization.

oh.. and yes you did say that the celts was not a civilization, wandering nomads i recall?

 

[ahab_in_rehab]

Pontypool the situation is a little more complex than how you've acknowledged in your posts, trying to determine exactly which people came from where and when they did so is incredibly difficult, especially given the time period that is in question, as I understand it the British Isles were settled via mainland Europe during the last ice age (I think Upper Paleolithic) these settlers then spread further north and west as the ice retreated. I'm not sure therefore that you could say that the lower portion of the british isles were settled from Wales or that they were "Welsh" any more than you could say Scottish, Irish or English.

Just to throw something else into the mix with regards to language, how about the Basques, their language is often cited as being a contender for the earliest indigenous eurpoean language and they certainyl have a distinct culture too, by the same criteria you've used for the welsh you could also make a case for the basque and almost any other culture/civilisation to be included.

For my part I recognise that although it would be great to play as wide an array of civs as possible there is obviously a limit to what the developers can provide and tough decisions have to be made as to who is included. Although the welsh do indeed have a unique culture they havn't as an independant nation/state polity etc. had as much of an impact on world history as the English thus they were included over the welsh.

 

[viz]

I see what you're saying pontypool but all of the points you are making are tagged onto the success of the Celts not the Welsh. The nomads I refered to was regarding the birth of all early nations, and at 10,000 years ago there was no recognised civilisations.

 

[Locutus]

The Celts in this game have no link to the Celts of Britain/Brittany whatsoever, they are actually more of a Gallic civ. I don't see why Firaxis couldn't have just called them the Gauls...

Not true. There are cities in the city list from Ireland to Turkey, from Scotland to Spain. There are almost as many British cities on there as Gallic ones (which considering the size of territory and level of advancement of Gallic tribes compared to the Celts in Britain could be considered a mild pro-British bias) and on top of that there's some Celtiberian and Galatian cities as well. The Celtic UB is uniquely British -- continental Celts did not build Duns as far as we know. Their UU is Gallic and their leader Galatian. So the Celts in Civ4 represent the entire Hallstatt/La Tene culture: they're not uniquely British, but certainly not uniquely Gallic either -- they're (pan-European) Celtic.

 

[MooManof_]

I see what you're saying pontypool but all of the points you are making are tagged onto the success of the Celts not the Welsh. The nomads I refered to was regarding the birth of all early nations, and at 10,000 years ago there was no recognised civilisations.

With the possible exception of the early arab city states.

 

[pontypool]

Pontypool the situation is a little more complex than how you've acknowledged in your posts, trying to determine exactly which people came from where and when they did so is incredibly difficult, especially given the time period that is in question, as I understand it the British Isles were settled via mainland Europe during the last ice age (I think Upper Paleolithic) these settlers then spread further north and west as the ice retreated. I'm not sure therefore that you could say that the lower portion of the british isles were settled from Wales or that they were "Welsh" any more than you could say Scottish, Irish or English.
.

The people that 'allegedly' settled europe from mainland europe was certainly not a civilization at all, which I think is a debate for another topic anyway. Evidence suggests that the celts of britain did not migrate from elsewhere, but the culture merely emerged gradually while it was being absorbed from overseas, but once again that's just a theory.
However the fact that celts from wales spread from wales to england and then france is not a theory its a fact. The first stonhendge was built in wales and the placement of all the other stonehendge following that clearly shows a pattern of spreading outwards according to carbon dating. I didn't even know it was disputed that the celts spread in this fashion, I thought it was common knowledge????

There is more evidence yet again that the celts of briton was connected to wales when in the year 577 after the battle of deorham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Deorham the celts of wales was seperated from the celts of cornwall. however there is strong evidence that the cornish was inheriting from the celts of wales until many years later, with things such as more modern art and changes in dialect. note: there is no evidence to suggest this inheritance was a two way road. This implies to me that the welsh area was the heart of the celtic civilization.
#Random interesting fact . the cornish language is a unique form of celtic that emerged after the seperation of the celts from wales but only slightly, it says on wikepedia 75% of the grammar is the same. until 1800s it was used by 100's of thousands, eventually the english stomped it out until it was recently revived but now only 3500 speak it, 500 fluently#

So it seems to me that this tribe of celts arose in wales and the heart of this tribe was throughout history and still is in wales. afterall the lanaguage never died out? unlike in cornwall and brittany. Genetics also prove this.#
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

This is not the only genetic proof , its very abundant and it proves that the welsh people are both the original celts and indigenous. the english are the invaders of this island.

 

[MooManof_]

So, you've just said that the Welsh are the Celts... then play as the Celts. Simple, problem solved, let's go home.

 

[ahab_in_rehab]

Pontypool

I don't have a lot of time to respond to your points in detail now but two things struck me immediately in your posts (i'll have to have a look at your links etc. later)

Firstly there is no "alleged" wrt to the British Isles being settled from mainland Europe, unless you beleive that homo sapiens sapiens arose independantly in Wales and Africa then the original population must have entered the BI from somwhere else and mainland Europe is pretty much the only way they could have got there.

Wrt to carbon dating, you cant use C14 dating on stone and even if you could such dates would necessary be uncalibrated due to the lack of corrosponding dendrochronological data. The first henges may well have arisen in Wales but we cannot with any degree of certainty exactly when if were talking 10,000 years BP +

 

[brianshapiro]

\
Language being a defining requirment of any culture, which is why i said "early welsh" how else would you refer to your ancestors? early non nationality peoples who speak primative welsh, or early welsh?

The concept of nationality didnt exist at all 10 thousand years ago so technically you can't even claim that ancient egyptians was EGYPTIANS not in the way modern people would think anyway. It's more accurate to say the people of egypt , and the early welsh people was people from wales, or whatever it was called back then.. whats the difference? i would say none.
\

thats because nationalism is a concept about political organization. but ancient greeks, ancient egyptians, did along certain lines think of themselves as a coherent 'civilization' [and under certain terms a 'nation']. greeks talked about helenes vs. barbarians, etc.

btw, 'nation' did refer to something before nationalism, nationalism just gave importance to nationality as a foundational principle of states.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=nation
c.1300, from O.Fr. nacion, from L. nationem (nom. natio) "nation, stock, race," lit. "that which has been born," from natus, pp. of nasci "be born" (see native). Political sense has gradually taken over from racial meaning "large group of people with common ancestry." Older sense preserved in application to N.Amer. Indian peoples (1650). Nationality "the fact of belonging to a particular nation" is from 1828. Nation-building first attested 1907 (implied in nation-builder). National is from 1597; national anthem first recorded 1819, in Shelley. Nationalize "bring under state control" is from 1869.

which is why i hate when people say "nations didnt exist until the 19th century they are inventions"

this doesn't mean nation-states arent natural, nationalism did begin as a movement in the 19th century, but the foundation was the idea that a nation was the natural way states became organized. nationalism was just a recognition of this percieved truth in doctrine as to implement this in constitutions, which were also relatively new as a foundation for state building.

at any rate i think the existence of some sort of 'nation' is an important factor when we look at what makes sense calling something a 'civilization' for the terms of the game. was some group of people really independent or distinct in their own right or part of a larger political and cultural pull?

 

[Vietcong]

10,000 years old??

from my understanding, stone hendge isnt that old..

its was built about 4000-2000 bc, the paryamids may have been already built by the time stone henged was compleated.

 

[pontypool]

I should have clarified for people without common sense. But obviously you cannot carbon date stone which was already there anyway. you can however carbon date the graves of workers (and the discovered worker manifest) amongst many other things from the stonhendge ruins. Furthermore you can use methods other than carbon dating on the stones themselves to place an age on stone in much the same way that you estimate the age of any stone made building, this isn't just a theory it's a widly used process. and all the evidence points to the same dates.

"large group of people with common ancestry." So yes.. the welsh people are a large group with a common ancestory. ermm the english are not, because your ancestory is basically a mixture of scandinavian (vikings) celtic german (angles saxons, jutes) and french (normans) not to mention the more recent immigrations.
This is further evidence the celts are welsh ancestors imo.

 

[DeadFish]

Guys no need to have catfight over small thing. If you REALLY want to play as Welsh or Scottish, simply get FreeCiv.

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The Ship - The Movie is coming out soon!
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[Willowmound]

"large group of people with common ancestry." So yes.. the welsh people are a large group with a common ancestory. ermm the english are not, because your ancestory is basically a mixture of scandinavian (vikings) celtic german (angles saxons, jutes) and french (normans) not to mention the more recent immigrations.
This is further evidence the celts are welsh ancestors imo.

Ooh, time for me to butt in and pick nits!

The Angles, Saxons and Jutes were not Celtic German. That's an oxymoron. They were Germanic, which is different from being Celtic. Also, the Angles were Jutes, and Jutland being part of Denmark, proto-Vikings as it were.

All nits picked.

 

[ahab_in_rehab]

Pontypool,

Yes I know C14 dating cannot be used on stone but a lot of people are not aware of that fact and seem to think radiocarbon dating can be used to date anything from any time which is not the case at all. Objective methods for dating stone are also fraught with problems, you can use similar methods to C14 to date the absolute age of the rock (different isotopes with different half lives are used for different geological eras) but that is of little consequence to the archaeologist as we are interested in when the stone was hewn, shaped etc. Thermoluminesence dating is of some use for cermaics but requires the object in question to have been fired which would probably not apply to most henges. Of the top of my head I can't think of any other methods for absolutely dating when stone was has been hewn.

You're right to acknowledge that archaeologists often date sites or obkects nor amenable to regular testing by association with other finds in a similar context but this has to be used with great caution. For instance you used an example of dating a henge from a grave in close association with the site, but how can we tell at what point during the site's life the grave was dug, it may have been dug before the site was constructed, by the original builders, or by an unrelated group of people using the site a considerable time after the builders. Again I just want to make the point that trying to determine what was going on in the distant past when no written records and relatively little evidence remains in the archaeological record is a minefield and not at all straightforward

 

[ferenginar]

Britain isn't a country. Its 4 united countries. I guess the topic creator wants a more modern civilization, like how Britain conducts itself now. England doesn't send troops to other countries. Britain as a whole does.

Britain is three countries, England Scotland and Wales,

The United kingdom is four counties, as you would know if you gave it its full title,

The United KIngdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

[BadHorsie]

English = British

Blatantly an ignorant American.

 

[moggydave]

I think we've got to sum up the list of terms, nations and ethnicities and look at i from there. Here is what I recall from reading the book "This Sceptred Isle" and my own knowledge. Apologies for any mistakes and omissions, it is very very confusing.

Britons: ie Ancient Britons, those who inhabited the British Isles before the Romans invaded.
Celts 1: General word for "barbarian" peoples who inhabited most of northern Europe before the Romans. Can be split into Britons, Gauls, Germans, etc etc
Celts 2: Arguebaly replaced Ancient Britons in Britain before the Romans invaded.
Celts 3: Britons of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany et al, driven there by Anglo Saxons after Romans.
Anglo-Saxons: German "barbarians" who invaded British Isles after Romans left.
English: Later descendents of Anglo-Saxons, inhabited most of what is now England.
Welsh: Later descendents of Celts/Britons who lived in Wales.
Irish: Later descendents of Celts/Britons who lived in Ireland.
Scottish: Later descendents of Celts/Britons who lived in Scotland.
Cornish: Later descendents of Celts/Britons who lived in Cornwall.
English 2: Modern term for those who were born in England.
Welsh 2: Modern term for those who were born in Wales.
Irish 2: Modern term for those born in Republic of Ireland.
Irish 3: Modern term for those born in RI and Northern Ireland.
Scottish 2: Modern term for those born in Scotland.
British: Modern term for those born in United Kingdom of GB and Northern Ireland.
British 2: Modern term for those born on the Island of Great Britain (ie. England/Scotland/Wales)
English 3: Regarding law applying to England and Wales post Acts of Union in 16th Century.
Scottish 3: Regarding law that applies to Scotland exclusively post 1707.
Irish 4: Regarding law of RI.
Northern Irish: Regarding law that applies to NI exclusively post 1923.
Kingdom of Scotland 1: Independent Scotland pre 1603
Kingdom of Scotland 2: Unified Scotland with Kingdom of England 2 (see below) 1603-1707.
Kingdom of England 1: Unified England from Dark Ages to 1543.
Kingdom of England 2: England and Wales as one kingdom 1543-1707
Kingdom of Great Britain: Unification of Kingdoms and Parliaments of Scotland and England 1707-1800.
United Kingdom of GB and Ireland: Incorporation of territory of Ireland (formerly of the British Empire) into the Kingdom of Great Britain.
United Kingdom of GB and NI: Modern country of Britain post 1923 after most of Ireland was given independence.
Republic of Ireland: Independent nation created in 1923.
England: First and main constituent country of UK post 1707.
England 2: (see English 3 above).
Scotland: Second constituent country of UK post 1707.
Wales: Third constituent country of UK post 1707.
Ireland: Fourth constituent country of UK 1800-1923.
Northern Ireland: Fifth (fouth) constituent country of UK post 1923.


A lot of this list could be wrong but it is very very confusing.

Of course the game is called civilisation thus regarding a British civiliation and not a nation I would personally just generalise the people of the British Isles from Ancient to Modern Times as one civilisation. However the UK is perhaps the second biggest market for Civ games after the US and many Irish, Welsh, Scots and English may want to not be associated with the general term British which may be why Firaxis just chose English having been the dominant nation/ethnicity as a representative and has essentially left out Wales/Scotland/Ireland.

Of course I have not metioned the great mix of Normans, Romans etc in my list who have created ethnic crossovers and what not which makes this even more confusing and why the civilisation representing the people of the British Isles should be British despite t's more modern association with just people of the UK. Leaders could just be great leaders from all history of any of the nations/peoples mentioned above (Elizabeth may be leader of the English in the game but her grandfather was born in Wales)


Oh and in case your wondering, I'm Welsh. At least- I was born in Wales to Welsh parents who going back over the generations have Irish ancestry I think, but members of my extended familly are also Scottish and English. See how confusing it actually is!!

 

[moggydave]

Sorry for the double post, but I think this link from Wikipedia poves my point further on how confusing it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_(terminology)

 

[Aneurism]

I think most people around the world see English and British as kind of interchangeable terms, even when they fully understand that England is only one part of the whole. Especially when it comes to such things as news headlines discussing what English forces are up to in Iraq and stuff like that. Even the most ignorant person understands that English, Welsh, North Irish and Scottish are not the same, but occasionally they do get lumped in and that's just the way it is. If you are a British citizen and you don't like this, by all means try to change people from using it interchangeably, but don't think they are doing it only because they don't know the difference.

 

[Mozza]

OK, from the bottom up:

England: Nation State consisting of the south and eastern part of the island of Britain
Scotland: Nation State consisting of the northern part of the island of Britain, and several outlaying islands such as the Shetland Isles, The Orkney Isles and the Western Isles
Wales: Nation State consitsing of the west part of the island of Britain and the island of Anglesy (and possibly other, smaller islands)
Britain: Geographical entity, the largest of the British Isles
Great Britain: Geographical entity consisting of Britain, and all the small islands such as Anglesy, Orkney, the Channel Isles, the Isle of Man etc, but not Ireland
Ireland: Geographical entity consisting of the island of Ireland (and possibly a few small outlaying islands)
The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: Political entity, consisting of Great Britain and 6 of the 8 counties of Ulster on the island of Ireland
The Republic Of Ireland: Political entity consisting of the rest of the island of Ireland, 5 full provinces, plus Donegal (which is geographically part of Ulster, but not part of Northern Ireland in a political sense)
The British Isles (sometimes referred to as The British and Irish Isles): Geographical entity consisting of all of the above

in terms of what constitutes a Country; two passports exist within the Isles (excluding of course, foreign passports), British, for those from the UK, and Irish, for those from the Republic Of Ireland.

The mod in my sig is to include the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in your games.

Quite straightforward really.