Were "stacks of doom" really that bad?

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Basically, no one would design a wargame with the rules and dimensions of Civ 5. It is not challenging, it is not mechanically smooth, and it doesn't even give you the suspension of disbelief that can allow you to ignore tactical failings.

People act as if flaws in a prior game somehow excuse bigger, or different, flaws in a new version. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

I didn't like the endless stack model in Civ 4 - and there is a long, long laundry list of things that they could have done (or have been done in other games) to fix it. Stiffer maintenance costs; limits on building units based on population; supply limits; rock-paper-scissors units which can damage too many pieces in one place. You could also choose a lot of options to improve stack combat. I could go on, but there is absolutely no reason why you need to abolish stacking to design a better combat system than Civ 4 had.

Including how stacks worked in Civ 1: if the defender in the stack lost, the whole stack died.

And in Civ 4, they had collateral damage, but it only worked on the first 5 units? Why? Who knows. Just a dumb rule.

So of all the possible ways to alter the Civ 4 combat system, we got 1upt. Why? Jon Shafer loves Panzer General so now we have 1upt!
 
The SOD are far crazier in Civ 3 when playing on Sid difficulty level with huge map settings.
 
I hated stacks. For me, it was just unrealistic... Giant limitless stacks of "Stuff" moving around...

In Civ5 while the scale is off, I do like the army management of it all. For me, if you're going to run an empire, then logistics is important. I find war fun now. It's more than just throwing one stack at another.. but you can fortify choke points... fight out in the field... and just the simply arranging of troops can spell doom if you don't consider opposing troops. For me, it feels more realistic because you can't just have a bunch of military units bunched on each other.

For me, this is an empire building game and great empire not only learned how to manage domestic challenges but military challenges and that's what I enjoy most about 1UPT... military is now a challenge.
 
Stacks of Doom = bad
1UPT = total win

end of thread :D

I loved panzer general too!

Lol, lets face it, its going to come down to opinion on this one apparently. Civ5 needed a new direction instead of being civ4.1, so its become more tactical. I daresay the difference is that civ5 is more tactics-related (positioning and proper use of force are key) while civ4 was more strategic (more about having sufficient production and numbers).
 
I hated stacks. For me, it was just unrealistic... Giant limitless stacks of "Stuff" moving around...

In Civ5 while the scale is off, I do like the army management of it all. For me, if you're going to run an empire, then logistics is important. I find war fun now. It's more than just throwing one stack at another.. but you can fortify choke points... fight out in the field... and just the simply arranging of troops can spell doom if you don't consider opposing troops. For me, it feels more realistic because you can't just have a bunch of military units bunched on each other.

For me, this is an empire building game and great empire not only learned how to manage domestic challenges but military challenges and that's what I enjoy most about 1UPT... military is now a challenge.
Hi Jon
 
Am I correct in supposing that you are, primarily, a "warmonger?" (That is, you use warfare most often to achieve victory -- even in cases where you don't win via conquest or domination.) If that is the case, I can see why you'd view Civ as close to chess. In terms of combat, it can be. Although I'd say that chess is far more detailed in terms of the types of maneuvers and overall strategy required. Civ has (up until this version) never really been that, in my opinion.
I like equally the building and warmongering in Civ. The Civ building alone is not enough to hold me. It’s the blend and Civ has a right combination of depth in building, diplomacy and strategy, there are many ways to win or achieve greatness.

Of course it’s not exactly like chess, but it has many chess like aspects in the way pieces move, some move one space, some two or even five, but always one move per piece per turn. It's much more interesting than chess, the huge board size and variety in terrain and units, the randomness and unusual predicaments that you wind up in. So what if the peninsula is one tile wide or what dimension it is in real life. It's one tile. If you want to capture the city on it, it may take acquiring astronomy or navigation to bombard from sea. For me, that makes it much more interesting. Each city capture is a new puzzle. E.g., last night, “how do I capture this fortress of Moscow, with a river around it, a canon inside and one on a hill behind?” It cost me two riflemen, but I captured it.
If you dig the approach to attacking the city, the positioning, etc., and if you dig chess, again, I can see why this new approach appeals to you. I got enough of that out of the stack system (IE: which unit do I attack with first, what tile do I stick my stack on, etc.), but that's just my tastes. I think, however, the problem is a bit different.
I think that seems to be the issue here, that some have different tastes as to how battles are fought. Civ has chosen to use 1UPT instead of stacks opening up to a full tactical map like TW series. I like both games, but Civ is still my favorite game to play for its building depth and overall complexity, the exploring and settling. I think the addition of 1UPT improved the game, but that’s my opinion. 1UPT has a human scale to connect with on a one to one bass, one piece per tile. Stacks don't have that one to one connection. They become abstractions, heaping piles of units that you throw at one another.
That said, I still think you have a problem with 1UPT and scale that cannot be rectified by anything save either returning to stacks, or by switching to a two-tiered map system.
Time will tell. It may take another patch to perfect the 1UPT, but I like what I see, and have some faith that talented software designers will bring the balance eventually. By increasing the distance by one hex, it increased the area of a city by approximately a factor of two, which further reduces the chance of a “carpet of doom” happening. Also, it prevents the annoying tendency of being bombarded by close packed cities in an ICS grid. That’s no fun. I think it was a good move to nerf ICS. REX is fine and has always been there, but the ICS detracts from the game.

But in Civ, we're dealing (at least on Earth maps) with the real world...and coming up well short. We're dealing with odd abstractions that have no real consistency among them, and the question becomes WHY is the game this way. Civ 5, to me, seems very much a step back in this regard. In previous games, there seemed to be a drive towards the representational.

I really don’t see the huge difference between Civ IV and Civ V other than 1UPT and hexes. The representation hasn't change much. You still move one or two squares at a time, maybe three if you’re cavalry or mech infantry, but it is the same game. Regarding representation, I get flak from my girl friend such as what is the “Great Wall doing around Paris?”, or “why is that Great General Robert E. Lee leading the Chinese?” I just laugh and say that “it’s a game, we get to rewrite history.”

I never use earth maps, always random. But I do prefer the pangea or oval, since it gives everyone a chance on a level playing field regardless of naval AI intelligence, or lack thereof. Once in a while I like a continents game.
I guess that's where I see the problem with 1UPT and the Civ map, even after they "fix" production speeds and such. That'll be a big help, of course, but it still all just seems very...gamey.
Well, you know it IS just a game, right? ;) I get a huge kick out of an AI leader telling me “well played”, after I conquer them, and cringe when a sneering Washington tells me he has just attacked one of my city states and “what am I going to do about it?” I say “nothing.” He says “yeah, that’s right.” He's so mean sometimes. :lol:
 
This same type of post keeps dragging out over and over.

You know whats bad? Thinking they are going to make the most popular turn based strategy game please everyone.

Play it for what it is, for every "bad" change there are three "good" ones. Don't like it? Start a game development company and build your own. Then let's see what the community thinks of your game when your finished...
 
Basically, no one would design a wargame with the rules and dimensions of Civ 5. It is not challenging, it is not mechanically smooth, and it doesn't even give you the suspension of disbelief that can allow you to ignore tactical failings.

People act as if flaws in a prior game somehow excuse bigger, or different, flaws in a new version. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

I didn't like the endless stack model in Civ 4 - and there is a long, long laundry list of things that they could have done (or have been done in other games) to fix it. Stiffer maintenance costs; limits on building units based on population; supply limits; rock-paper-scissors units which can damage too many pieces in one place. You could also choose a lot of options to improve stack combat. I could go on, but there is absolutely no reason why you need to abolish stacking to design a better combat system than Civ 4 had.


This. I'll add that the problem with Civ4's combat system had little to nothing to do with stacking and everything to do with the "series of duels" combat resolution. It was tedious, out of scale and a realism killer. Armies group together for tactical reasons moreso than to win battles of attrition. Breaking army combat down into a completely unrealistic series of duels eliminated the main advantage of greater numbers, which is being able to force some or all of the enemy army to fight more than one opponent at a time. This (plus the defender automatically defends with his best unit situationally) gave the defender an enormous advantage, and the reaction was to make pseudo artillery units really important, which was both unrealistic and uninteresting. Auto-calc battles would have been a much better option, returning the game to its otherwise grand strategic focus.

The seeds of the destruction of this series were planted in Civ1 when the decision was made to make units represent component parts of armies, fleets and air forces, which nonetheless operated as if they were in fact entire armies fleets and air forces. As the very simple combat system was almost identical to that employed in the first commercial board games produced in the 1950s this was merely an annoyance to realists like myself rather than a deal breaker, while I assume it allowed non wargamers to more readily relate to their forces. A phalanx was weaker than a tank unit and slower, but it nonetheless behaved on the map in exactly the same manner. This was laudable for the purposes of strategic gaming, but of course created an expectation for tactical realism that was unfulfilled. Had Civ1 simply had an army system to begin with (see Europa Universalis for a simple system that does a very good job of simulating movement and combat between various sorts of forces across a number of historical eras) we would have been spared a good deal of trouble.

Instead the "tactical" elements of the game expanded, while the map and time scale remained grand strategic (with the exception of movement which was always unreal in the extreme in order to make the combat system viable). Civ3 and Civ4 at least allowed armies (though army components acted as armies when not stacked) for some purposes, but combat was always resolved as individual combats between army components rather than simultaneous clashes of groups. Civ5 is the ultimate expression of this trend to sacrifice strategic play on the altar of uber simplistic tactical diddling. To my mind neither scale works at all. Not only is Civ5 a terrible game tactically, there is now no way to effectively minimize the tactical element in order to enjoy the strategy level of the game. At the same time the strategy level of the game has been set back significantly.

While I'm sad this series has come to this point, it's been a long slow death as far as I'm concerned. Civ5 was a deal breaker in a number of ways, but I've been playing less and less Civ since the mid 1990s, and my attachment to the series has been much more nostalgic than obsessive for well over a decade. While I'd enjoy a good game with the same scope as Civ, I'm happier playing Paradox titles for strategy games and Total War titles for a mix of tactical and strategic (along with the occasional SMAC, MOO2, MoM etc.) than games of the Civ series. I guess I'm simply no longer a Civ Fanatic.
 
I didn't like the endless stack model in Civ 4 - and there is a long, long laundry list of things that they could have done (or have been done in other games) to fix it. Stiffer maintenance costs; limits on building units based on population; supply limits; rock-paper-scissors units which can damage too many pieces in one place. You could also choose a lot of options to improve stack combat. I could go on, but there is absolutely no reason why you need to abolish stacking to design a better combat system than Civ 4 had.

This. I'll add that the problem with Civ4's combat system had little to nothing to do with stacking and everything to do with the "series of duels" combat resolution. It was tedious, out of scale and a realism killer. Armies group together for tactical reasons moreso than to win battles of attrition. Breaking army combat down into a completely unrealistic series of duels eliminated the main advantage of greater numbers, which is being able to force some or all of the enemy army to fight more than one opponent at a time. This (plus the defender automatically defends with his best unit situationally) gave the defender an enormous advantage, and the reaction was to make pseudo artillery units really important, which was both unrealistic and uninteresting. Auto-calc battles would have been a much better option, returning the game to its otherwise grand strategic focus.

The seeds of the destruction of this series were planted in Civ1 when the decision was made to make units represent component parts of armies, fleets and air forces, which nonetheless operated as if they were in fact entire armies fleets and air forces. As the very simple combat system was almost identical to that employed in the first commercial board games produced in the 1950s this was merely an annoyance to realists like myself rather than a deal breaker, while I assume it allowed non wargamers to more readily relate to their forces. A phalanx was weaker than a tank unit and slower, but it nonetheless behaved on the map in exactly the same manner. This was laudable for the purposes of strategic gaming, but of course created an expectation for tactical realism that was unfulfilled. Had Civ1 simply had an army system to begin with (see Europa Universalis for a simple system that does a very good job of simulating movement and combat between various sorts of forces across a number of historical eras) we would have been spared a good deal of trouble.

Instead the "tactical" elements of the game expanded, while the map and time scale remained grand strategic (with the exception of movement which was always unreal in the extreme in order to make the combat system viable). Civ3 and Civ4 at least allowed armies (though army components acted as armies when not stacked) for some purposes, but combat was always resolved as individual combats between army components rather than simultaneous clashes of groups. Civ5 is the ultimate expression of this trend to sacrifice strategic play on the altar of uber simplistic tactical diddling. To my mind neither scale works at all. Not only is Civ5 a terrible game tactically, there is now no way to effectively minimize the tactical element in order to enjoy the strategy level of the game. At the same time the strategy level of the game has been set back significantly.
those posts have some quite refreshing points. more accurately my opinion is that the previous combat system sucked and Civ5's does too. I hope we will see a chess-like AI for Civ5 after updates, if not the game is destined to be shallow.
If you really want to get rid of 1upt it needs to be like Heroes' - a hero/general leading up to X units on one tile. When two armies clash, a tactical map opens up for combat.

But this is a hypothetical question, CIV5 uses 1UPT which can become great, once someone improves the combat AI.

that initially seemed like a good idea to me, but i suppose it may be too big a design change for civilization.
 
evereyone forgot about civ2, which got it right:
it was both stacks and 1upt, it was balanced.

you could stack units, but when the stack got attacked, only the best unit defended. if that unit lost, the whole stack was destroyed.
so the punishement for stacking was massive, and incentive to spread out high.

add to that, that in civ2, defense outside of cities was very weak. cities had 3x defense bonus, but compare these era values in terrain, basically no era unit could defend against era attack outside of city, so stacks were impracticall:

phalanx(2d)
vs legion(4a), catapult(6a), crusader(5a)

musktman(3d), rifleman(4d) vs
dragoons(5a), cavalry(8a), cannon(8a), artillery(10a)

alpine troops (5d), mech.infantry(6d) vs
marines(8a), tank(12a), howitzer(14a), stealth bomber (16a)*, battleship(20a)*, marines(8a)
* in civ2 these units could directly destroy land units

some values may be off (and those vets of you also remember the hp/fp values) , but you get the idea: 1 ancient era crusader could on average destroy whole "stack of doom of gunpowder defenders, dragoons cannons in one attack)
 
evereyone forgot about civ2, which got it right:
it was both stacks and 1upt, it was balanced.

you could stack units, but when the stack got attacked, only the best unit defended. if that unit lost, the whole stack was destroyed.
so the punishement for stacking was massive, and incentive to spread out high.

I never really played 2 so I have to ask: if that rule of stacking was so great, why was it removed then?
 
I never really played 2 so I have to ask: if that rule of stacking was so great, why was it removed then?

I dont really now, nor was I at the forums when civ3 changes were discussed.
and really i like the civ3 and civ4 combat system.

1 guess would be marketing: the kid was crying when his SoS was destroeyd by 1 attack, and won´t ever buy our games again.
also civ2 had very sarcastic pop up when this happened, IE:
"21 units were destroyed - ok"....... no its not ok its called fuu.........:mad:
 
I think the new system is perfect, except for the fact the AI can't figure it out. The AI can not counter a human player who effectively uses range attacks and terrain. It also tends to fight wars too aggressively and predictably.. .

The AI needs some retooling IMO. On defense it needs to hold units back until the player has engaged its cities. Then by pushing forth they can surprise and defeat the advance. On offense it needs to advance with caution - prioritizing terrain to shield its units from combination attacks from the player. Lastly, when it detects the player is no longer able to defend himself it needs to go into full-throttle, sort of the approach it does now where it will throw everything it has. This approach is effective if all the players units are dead.

Give the AI even the slightest bit of intelligence and i think this gameplay will shine. It has massive potential. Civ 5 could learn a lot from the developers of Wesnoth - also a one-unit-per turn strategy game with outstanding AI.
 
Regardless of balance (i think both systems are fine), there is one downside to 1upt - every unit needs to be moved separately. Every turn. With larger armies its a pain. Remember Civ3 vanilla.
 
Stacks of Doom = bad
1UPT = total win

end of thread :D

I loved panzer general too!

Lol, lets face it, its going to come down to opinion on this one apparently. Civ5 needed a new direction instead of being civ4.1, so its become more tactical. I daresay the difference is that civ5 is more tactics-related (positioning and proper use of force are key) while civ4 was more strategic (more about having sufficient production and numbers).

I loved Panzer general too. That's why I play PG and not Civ5 when given the choice.

I does not necessarily matter what you do. However, it does matter – always – how you do it. PG was well done. Civ5 is a copy-paste job with no thought put into the game mechanics. 1 UPT served merely as a marketing slogan. The actual gameplay hasn't changed at all. AI is still braindead and the human player still wins by exploiting AI stupidity. (Unfortunately the diplomacy / science / economic gameplay was cut away from the game because – now – we have UPT as the main game focus! Really too bad that this part of the game is simply not working.)
 
Infinite stacks with no penalties are bad.
1UPT is bad.

There must be a compromise:
1) Allow infite stacks with penalties (be it to combat strength, hp damage over time, whatever).
2) Allow limited stacks (essentially 1UPT where 1 unit is now 1 army, so I don't like this option). -perhaps also with penalties.

I don't think 1UPT works with the map scale of civ, so I did not add modifications of it as options.

Preach on brother...

Why their can't be 2-4 UPT, or increased stacking penalties, shows why one extreme is no better than the other. There is a rational middle.

Trying to move a unit through a mid to late game carpet of units is worse than anything an SoD did to my gameplay experience.
 
I miss the stacks of doom. It just isn't the same when you take a city by just defeating one unit. Stacks of doom gave the game more scale and it felt like you had a huge army and you could just go about killing everything with it.
 
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