1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Were the middle ages more democratic than modern times?

Discussion in 'World History' started by Mouthwash, Nov 20, 2018.

  1. Sickening

    Sickening Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    52
    .
    I see that your problem with my argument was based on how important should these women be so that they may be recorded in the history. Meanwhile my argument was emphasizing on the erasure of women's achievements in history. You see, of course I understand that there needs to be historical records on the first place in order for modern historians to find it and of course there only those who achieved splendidly only needs to be recorded. However history is still commercial.

    What actually differs between damnatio memoriae and historical negotiationism/denialism/revisionism if not just on the methodology created for the same purpose? Indeed why would unscrupulous rulers need to falsify records of women if it is not other than to undermine, undersell these women's stories by deliberate falsifications and "under-representation" in order to erase these women from history.
     
  2. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    10,728
    So you persist in claiming there was some kind of conspiracy by rulers across multiple cultures, covering most of the world, for centuries and centuries, to silence women's stories?
     
  3. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    31,552
    Location:
    Scotland
    Moreover, a conspiracy that was at once so effective as to warp the historical record, but too impotent to prevent entire books written by women from being handed down to the present.
     
  4. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Messages:
    16,794
    Location:
    Somerset
    As with all claims of this kind, the question is: which rulers are we talking about, and what evidence is there that they did this? Without evidence it's just speculation, no matter how plausible (or otherwise) it may be thought to be.
     
  5. Sickening

    Sickening Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    52
    It isn't a conspiracy when it always happening all the time. that one might say that it is the nature of men. I mean silencing women's achievements is always what men do when they don't have the competence. Just saying. :rolleyes:

    What would happen to Elizabeth I if she were to be wed ? What about Catherine the Great of Russia if she were remarried to Potemkin ? They were great because they are smart enough to acknowledge that guys are actually useless.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  6. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    31,552
    Location:
    Scotland
    Elizabeth's sister, Mary I, and cousin, Mary of Scotland, were both married, and we've heard of them. It's true that widows like Catherine seem to become prominent actors more often than married women, but that seems to be more likely due to the European legal systems extending them more individual freedom of action, and therefore allowing them to become actors, or to become actors in ways that would be more readily appreciated by onlookers, than because of some concerted effort to obscure them. Married women could not as often sign contracts or hold property, so their names do not appears as frequently in the record; it is not the case that they were signing contracts and holding property, but these records were all, for some reason, falsified after their deaths.

    Unmarried and married women faced greater legal and social restraints than widows and other independent women, such as holy women, so often their actions were not legally their own, but were carried out on behalf of sons and husbands and fathers, but that doesn't mean they didn't act, or that it wasn't recorded, simply that it was recorded in conformity with the legal and social norms of the day. It requires a degree of interpretation by historians, but that's more or less the entire business of being a historian.
     
  7. Yeekim

    Yeekim Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    9,776
    Location:
    Estonia
    Indeed it is one of the great paradoxes of the world that men, so useless and incompetent in general, managed to oppress and silence women with such brutal efficiency.
    :rolleyes:
     
  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    10,728
    You don't understand the rationality of it, this is obviously because women are masochistic and like to be brutalized and oppressed. But now their centuries old cunning plan has been exposed!

    Probably should put a sarcasm warning before someone complains...
     
  9. formerdc81

    formerdc81 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2018
    Messages:
    53
    Gender:
    Male
    The problem with the idea of "deleting" history is that most medieval kings and emperors DID NOT HAVE THE MEANS to do so completely, regardless WHAT was the subject.

    Qin Shihuang wanted to delete all previous mention of mathematics to prove himself was the originator of knowledge. That didn't work, despite the massive bookburning that accompanied the construction of the (First) Great Wall.
    On Friday the 13th, the Templars across France were seized on the joint orders of the Pope and the King of France. Despite this, their great fortune was never expropriated by the French state.

    In practice, what is more likely to happen is that a woman leader who defied male norms would be described as a harlot, witch, evil manipulator, assassin, [insert meme here] after her death by her political successors. This is what China did to Wu Zetian and Dowager Cixi. This is how English Protestants referred to Mary, Queen of the Scots or Joan of Arc. Not only is this less time-consuming (and thus, more efficient) for the ruler, it just as easily accomplishes the necessary political task of legitimizing his rule to both the elite and the people. Why waste more resources to achieve the same goal?

    Yes, most male leaders who followed such powerful women weren't as competent or as intelligent as their mothers. To believe all of them, despite this general lack of competence, could somehow display a sudden competence at erasing history, defies logic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  10. Sickening

    Sickening Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    52
    I mean, that was exactly what I wrote on my previous posts and what was argued was the validity and the level of importance to note that men has been attempting on deleting/downplaying women's significance throughout history.
     
  11. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    10,728
    It kind of was, Philip erased his debts.
     
  12. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,098
    Location:
    England
    Still happens as is in people humming and singing "ding dong, the witch is dead" after Margaret Thatcher died.

     
    Mouthwash likes this.
  13. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Messages:
    16,794
    Location:
    Somerset
    I don't think that that was mainly because Thatcher defied male norms.
     
    Traitorfish and Owen Glyndwr like this.
  14. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    8,424
    Location:
    Hiding
    You could make the same claim about any of those other historical women (that it was just their political enemies who used that language). I don't remember Reagan's death drawing the same vitriol.
     
  15. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Messages:
    16,794
    Location:
    Somerset
    Reagan wasn't nearly as divisive as Thatcher, for non-gender-related issues. Reagan had no equivalent of the miners' dispute, in which Thatcher's policies left entire communities economically devastated in ways from which they have never recovered. Thatcher called her opponents in that dispute the "enemy within" and treated them accordingly, and they have not forgiven her for it.
     
  16. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    31,552
    Location:
    Scotland
    The United States also has no equivalent to Thatcher's mishandling and escalation of the Troubles. Public celebrations of Thatcher's death were mostly places with strong trade union traditions, large Irish Catholic populations, or both. Mouthwash is fond of explaining all politics in terms of tribal conflict: it's easy enough to explain this within that framework, without resorting to convoluted accusations of leftist hypocrisy.
     
  17. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,449
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    There was the whole AIDS thing though. The early 2000s were a very different time in the US. Public reactions to HW’s and McCain’s deaths, for instance, haven’t been so uniformly glowing.
     
  18. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    8,424
    Location:
    Hiding
    can i have one thread where i'm not called a nazi

    That's not how I remember HW's death. In fact, I recall most commentators giving explanations for why every side of the aisle seemed to genuinely mourn him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  19. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    31,552
    Location:
    Scotland
    Nobody said anything about Nazis. "Tribal conflict", here, is really just a colourful way of describing a view of politics as the collision between competing interest-groups.
     
  20. Yeekim

    Yeekim Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    9,776
    Location:
    Estonia
    ... and he would probably be right?
     

Share This Page