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Wfyabta

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by VoiceOfUnreason, Feb 9, 2007.

  1. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    I can't persuade myself that I'm going into enough strategic depth to give this the Vocum treatment.

    [size=-2]CR3 - BTS Leaders added[/size]
    [size=-2]CR2 - Changed focus to receiving techs[/size]
    [size=-2]CR1 - AI also hits this limit[/size]

    Mechanics of Technology Trading Limits



    When



    Friendly civs will never shun you for tech whoring.

    Your potential trading partner will shun you when both of these conditions are met:
    you or your trading partner are in the top half of the scoreboard (including dead civs).​

    and

    the number of techs that your trading partner remembers that you have received from someone else exceeds the NoTechTradingThreshold of this trading partner.​

    iNoTechTradingThreshold is defined in CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml, and varies from leader to leader ( see below ). The units of this threshold is number of techs. This value is modified by the difficulty handicap defined in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml (100% boost on Settler, 20% boost on Deity).

    Mechanics of Trade Memory



    Each civ maintains its own trade memory counter. For each tech that you receive in trade, every leader that has met you increments its "you received a tech from someone else" counter by one.

    At each leader's turn, there is a chance that the memory of one of your previous tech trades will decay, decrementing the counter by one. Memory decay is a random game element; for tech trading, the odds are determined by MEMORY_RECEIVED_TECH_FROM_ANY, defined in CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml. As it happens, the out of the box settings give every leader the same 1 chance in 20 of forgetting about a tech trade.

    So you can predict when you are going to hit the limit, but you cannot easily predict when the restriction is going to lift.

    The AI also hits this limit - this can be verified by modding the DLL to report each time a DENIAL_TECH_WHORE occurs (CvTeamAI::AI_techTrade)

    Leaders



    In this section, I detail the baseline tech thresholds described in CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml. Out of the box Warlords 2.08, the leaders are all set to 5,10,15, or 20.
    Edit: updated for BTS 3.17

    5 techs



    Alexander
    Bismarck
    Brennus
    Genghis Khan
    Huayna Capac
    Isabella
    Julius Caesar
    Louis XIV
    Mao Zedong
    Mehmed II
    Montezuma
    Qin Shi Huang
    Pacal
    Ragnar
    Shaka
    Sitting Bull
    Stalin
    Tokugawa

    10 techs


    Asoka
    Boudica
    Cyrus
    Darius
    De Gaulle
    Frederick
    Hannibal
    Hatshepsut
    Hammurabi
    Hannibal
    Kublai Khan
    Lincoln
    Napoleon
    Saladin
    Suleiman
    Suryavarman
    Victoria
    Wang Kon
    Washington
    Zara Yacob

    15 techs



    Augustus Caesar
    Catherine
    Charlemagne
    Churchill
    Elizabeth
    Gandhi
    Gilgamesh
    Joao
    Justinian
    Pericles
    Peter
    Ramesses II
    Roosevelt
    Willem Van Oranje

    20 techs



    Mansa Musa
     
  2. Bacon II

    Bacon II Chieftain

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    Nice VoU ;)

    Small q´s:

    1) Does this mean WFYABTA affect between ai-ai trades aswell, or is it only when the player is involved?

    2) Does the counter calculates both techs I sell and buy, or is the calculater just saying "bought techs"?

    3) Is techs gotten for suing for peace calculated aswell?
     
  3. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    Does this mean WFYABTA affect between ai-ai trades aswell, or is it only when the player is involved?

    It appears to be for ai-ai trades as well.

    Hmm, I wonder if that means that your permanently allied AI partner can screw you over with tech trading diplomacy behind your back.

    Does the counter calculates both techs I sell and buy, or is the calculater just saying "bought techs"?

    Techs bought - techs sold bump his counter, not yours.

    Is techs gotten for suing for peace calculated aswell?

    Yes - it is built into the trade mechanics.

    Disclaimer: all of these answers given without actually going back to check them in detail.
     
  4. slowcar

    slowcar stratege

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    In another thread i saw somebody mentioning automatic memory-decay if you enter a new era, is there anything about it? or just the 5% chance every turn?
     
  5. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    "Friendly civs will never shun you for tech whoring.

    Your potential trading partner will shun you under the following conditions:

    --you or your trading partner are in the top half of the scoreboard (including dead civs).
    --the number of techs that your trading partner remembers that you have traded to other civs does not exceed the NoTechTradingThreshold of this trading partner."

    i'm confused. he'll shun you, as in not trade with you, if the number does not exceed? reading it again i'm more confused. the number "you have traded to other civs", as in i traded them to somebody for peace or money, not the number that i *got* from trades?

    i had no idea about the fact that only leaders that the civ have met have their counter adjusted. so you could get 'freebies' from your own continent and then wipe them out before you meet the other one. but then that puts you in the top half including dead civs category so i suppose it's a wash.
     
  6. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    you got this wrong (well VoU wrote it in a very confuising way), read the answers to bacon II's questions.

    you got this wrong too (nothing to quote today ;)).
    Those conditions are cumulative, meaning that you won't get the WFYABTA if you don't meet any of those 2 conditions (AFAIK).

    Although I was under the belief that you could get the WFYABTA even if friendly (only later) or even if on the bottom of the score board (only later).
    Good to know, somehow.

    Those dead AIs still bug you, don't they :lol:?
    I'd kill them a second time just for that :lol:
     
  7. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    why would he care how many techs i've traded TO people instead of how many i've gotten in trade? is alex's limit a limit on him, as opposed to a limit on how he treats the human? so if i've given 5 away he's not allowed to get any more because i gave/traded away his limit, is that the deal with the "traded to"?

    i'm still totally lost. but that's okay, i managed to play and trade before, i will still *giggle*.

    ps "you got this wrong too (nothing to quote today)." consider this an evil look in your direction buster!
     
  8. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    Um, it needed revision.

    It needed revision twice. Wow, I may be setting a record for incoherency here.
     
  9. Thrar

    Thrar Chieftain

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    Same thing here, is that just superstition? I actually figured that idea out myself before reading about it somewhere else, but that was just from game experience, so probably just coinciding with the decay.

    Another suggestion, maybe you should think about changing the thread title to something more detailed? When I saw it I thought it'd likely be someone asking the same question that was posted hundreds of times before, only seeing your name next to it made me think there might be some interesting information in here (which there is!).
     
  10. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    don't feel bad. i'm a picky reader. it's my job, honest. i'm a technical editor. promise not to tell the folks i do contract work for that i don't use caps when i post, and i won't charge you for the close reading on this one *giggle*.

    it does make sense to me now. it confirms some of what i knew already and i learned new things too, so you met your goal of educating at least one person! thanks!
     
  11. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Chieftain

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    :goodjob:

    This finally explains why MM wouldn't trade anymore with me in some game while Saladin and Catherine still traded(decay and possible cathy and Sal hadn't met MM).

    It also explains why sometimes leaders that don't trade much will trade for some time nad others that you rely upon to trade will not this had me puzzled for a long time.

    I know there is a lot of criticism on the wfybta limit but some sort of limit on trade is neccessary. The way it's implemented is not bad, just means you need to self research meditation,priesthood etc....
     
  12. futurehermit

    futurehermit Chieftain

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    FINALLY I GET WFYABTA :lol:

    thanks :thumbsup:
     
  13. Zherak_Khan

    Zherak_Khan Chieftain

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    If I understand:

    Being in the lower half of the scoreboard means no WFYABTA. (Probably inding those you haven't met.
    Being friendly means no WFYABTA with that civilization.
    And, of course, being below the limit means no WFYABTA.
     
  14. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    No. If BOTH parties in the trade are in the lower half of the scoreboard, including the civs you haven't met and the civs that have died, THAT means no WFYABTA. But you will run into the limit if you are trying to trade your way out of the cellar by dealing with the top dogs.
     
  15. lilnev

    lilnev Chieftain

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    I think it's, "If both you and the civ you wish to trade with are in the lower half, then no WFYABTA." Not sure how the median rank is used when there are an odd number of civs, nor whether this uses all civs or just known civs.
    I've heard this before, but I'm also pretty sure I've seen it happen.

    Q: Does it include "gift techs" ("Perhaps this could be of some to use to you.")? I've generally been turning them down (it's usually something weak, like Horseback Riding in the Industrial Era), on the theory that they probably count against me.

    Q: By the handicap boost, you mean 100% + the handicap value, so Alex's limit is 6 on Deity?

    Thanks for posting this! I agree on giving the thread a title like "WFYABTA Explained!!!" with the exclamation marks, so people read it. And I wouldn't object to it being reposted in the Strategy Articles sub-forum. It's a question that keeps coming up, and is neither well-documented nor intuitive.

    peace,
    lilnev
     
  16. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    CIV uses integer division in most cases, including this one; with seven civs, it is checking to see if either of you are in the top three.

    I presume that it does. As far as I can tell, gifts are just trades that are completely lopsided. I haven't looked too carefully, though


    Yes.
     
  17. Evanesce

    Evanesce Chieftain

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    Good article; I knew the general rules of WFTYABTA, but not of the details. Thanks~^^
     
  18. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

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    Thanks for the great article. Quick question about the basic mechanic. If civ A knows B and C, trades techs with B, but C doesn't know B, will A accumulate tech counts against C even though C doesn't know where the techs are coming from? Or do you have to have a triangle of contacts formed for WFYABTA to start accumulating?

    Thanks!
     
  19. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

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    Yes.

    Repeating your question for my own sanity: if the contact graph looks like
    B -- A -- C

    And B trades a tech to A, then C will bump up the "you got a tech from someone else" counter for A.

    If A trades a tech to B, then C doesn't react at all (because C hasn't met B).

    Rereading the article, I can see why this question had to be asked, so I made the appropriate edits. I may go back later to dress up the example.
     
  20. Gudhjem

    Gudhjem Chieftain

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    The part still not clear to me is whether the "knowing" is restroctive. Do techs I get from a civ before I meet a later civ count when I meet that later civ? Do they count if I've killed the civ that gave me the tech before I meet the later civ? Sorry for the redundancy, as I think this was already asked, but I didn't understand the answer.

    and thanks for putting this together VoU.
     

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