What A mess I made...

[Easycompany68]

I had a couple of questions I'll ask after I explain what a mess I seem to have made.

Im playing my second game ever and I decided to go for a sceince win using babylon. Im playing on level 4...its (pretty low level). There are 8 Civ's and 12 City states on the one continent map (forget the name). I aplologize ahead of time for not knowing all the names of things so i'll do my best to explain.

I build my first city where the game started me so i am touching the ocean and have mostly desert and a little grasslands next to me. My second city is all jungle area for the sceince bonus on jungle, my 3rd city is also mostly jungle and the 4th city is mostly desert but i went there for the marble, stone, incence and 6 iron all within reach of the city.


So i hadn't made my 3rd city until turn 150ish which seems to be long...

I pretty much have been between -3 and 0 happiness the whole game.

I immediately went for the education science so be cause of that, i was at turn 100ish and still had the bottom half of the sceince tree completly unreaserched....im still at warriors...lol

My gold production is at -8 right now and im 3-4 turns away from being at negative gold....

My city production is horrible since 2 of my city's have all food tiles and no production tiles...

Most of this mess was also there when i was about to make my 3rd city so i don't want to take the easy way out and simply say i made to many cities to fast... I definitly know i did something wrong.

Ohh and i forget which wonder it was but one of them i think needs schools or something in each city and every time i started it, i ended up making a new city and then need to first get the building in the new city before being able to get the wonder...

So.....questions...please answer even if its just a opinion

1) I hear that science wins usually benefits more city's since you can have more great scientist appear and also you can have more science total.. Is there a general rule of thumb on when you build your 2nd, 3rd, 4th cities... Do you expand real quick even though it hurts you early but benefits you long term...or do you always make sure your stabalized before building next city..

2) Even though jungle tiles are your goal for sceince (as i read online)...do you still try and find a location that has production tiles also (im assuming most will say that a good mix is key..lol but just homour me..lol)

3) I read that the first Great scientist you get, you should immediately use him to give a tile +8 science. If I would have done that, then at turn 150 i would have 1200 more science then i did....I"m thinking this is a good move....what do you think?

4) Important.... Do i rush to education, as in, only get there and leave everything else....or do i find a balance...

5) On the highest levels...imortal and the one before that...Do i need to focus on troops immediately. I keep hearing that the PC with attack if you seem a little weak?

thanks for any info

 

[naturesbandit]

All right, you're a little all over the place, but that's okay. This is a complex game that takes experience and know-how to master. I'll start with your numbered questions:

1. Science victories depend on a few things. Primarily, it's population. This doesn't necessarily favor a wide empire if you can build your cities really tall. For example, three 4-population cities would have the same scientific output as one 12-population city. However, the three cities produce three unhappiness each, plus one for each citizen, plus it adds to your cultural policy cost. Additionally, if you want to add buildings that modify your science output (like the library), all of a sudden you need three libraries instead of one, which comes with gold penalties and of course hammers, not to mention a few costly turns.
Science victories are also greatly helped by some social policies (read up on the Rationalism track in the War Academy).
They are also helped along by Research Agreements which are also explained in the War Academy.
Once you build a university, and later public school and research lab, you will have "specialist slots" that you can assign your citizens into on the city management screen. These citizens will provide extra science, but will not provide any food so they are really only usable when your city is of adequate size.
As a final note, it's advisable to get the National College Wonder built prior to turn 100. This wonder is a national wonder meaning every civilization can build one, and requires each of your cities to have a library. Here's a great write up by Wargizmo on how to do that by about turn 70 with great results.

2. Jungle tiles are invaluable after you build an university. That's when they provide 2 research, along with 2 food. While you can't cut down the jungle if it's on a hill, you can build a trading post without eliminating the jungle. This increases the gold yield to 1 (2 with economics, 3 with economics and the proper social policy) while leaving the food and science output intact. Of course finding jungle near hills is the best, as you can get both food and production, but if you have other cities that can support this city with units, it isn't entirely necessary. Also, don't feel too bad cutting down one or two jungles to get to hills underneath, sometimes it's the only way.

3. Great Scientists are tricky, and I'm not sure anyone has hard and fast rules about using them. Generally, if I get any great scientists before the modern age, I use them to build an academy. This is the tile that gives 8 science when worked by a citizen. After the modern age I'm usually bee-lining techs, so I use my great scientists to give me a boost.

4. Every game is different (which is what makes this game so great) so it's hard to give you a hard and fast rule. Generally, when going for a scientific victory you want to focus on techs that increase your research. However, there are a few characters, curmudgeons if you will, that want to derail your civilization. If you meet Attila, Genghis, Montezuma, Harold, or Catherine, expect war in your future. The most important tech for this early game is Construction. The AI is pretty hopeless when it comes to tactics, and will generally just throw units at you until you're swamped. However, playing on 4 (Prince) you and the AI are on even ground with regards to production, so you should be able to get by with much fewer units than they have. Remember to use the terrain to your advantage, and protect your ranged units with melee. This is a great article on using ranged units for defense.
To answer your original question, yes, rush education, but be very aware of your surroundings.

5. I only play on level 6 (emperor), but from what I've seen on Let's Plays or read in other posts, is that you need to focus on units because the AI has such a ridiculous production bonus on the higher difficulties. They will throw endless waves of units at you which means you need to be prepared, and much better at them in maneuvering and counter-attacking. MadDjinn is probably my favorite player to watch since he does a great job of thinking out loud and explaining what he's doing. A lot of my upper level strategies are influenced by his play style, along with other regular contributors to this forum.

Finally, I'd like to address your unhappiness and gold problems. Unhappiness is caused by expansion of your civilization and increase in population. Each citizen contributes one unhappiness, and each city you own contributes three. This is countered by getting luxury resources (such as the incense and marble you mentioned). You need to have the proper techs to unlock the tile improvements to work these luxuries. For example, you need Calendar to build a plantation to take advantage of Sugar. Once you have this tile improved, it will contribute 4 happiness to your civilization. You can also focus on religion to help improve your happiness, but I won't go into detail here. There are plenty of posts you can find that can explain religion better than I.
Gold is a function of tile yield and population. Expenses are things such as roads, buildings, and units. You can combat the rising costs by building markets, banks, and stock exchanges, while working river tiles (which yield one gold) or luxuries such as gold and silver. Trading posts can also be built which improve the tile yield by one gold. Roads take a bit of thought. I go with this rule, if it's going to take more tiles of road to reach a city than it has population, I hold off on the road. For example, if your city has 3 population, but it's 5 tiles away from your trade network, it will result in a net loss in your coffers. This is because roads take 1 gold per turn maintenance, and the trade route bonus for hooking up a city to your capital won't be greater than that. You can also sell excess luxuries to computer players. If the particular AI likes you they will pay 240 lump sum for one luxury, or 20 lump and 7 gold per turn on Standard speed. If they don't like you as much they won't agree to as much.

Most importantly, don't forget to keep reading. Half the things I know about this game I learned from this forum, and the other half I learned from failed strategies. Remember, "It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls."

 

[aluelkdf]

I had a couple of questions I'll ask after I explain what a mess I seem to have made.

Im playing my second game ever and I decided to go for a sceince win using babylon. Im playing on level 4...its (pretty low level). There are 8 Civ's and 12 City states on the one continent map (forget the name). I aplologize ahead of time for not knowing all the names of things so i'll do my best to explain.

I build my first city where the game started me so i am touching the ocean and have mostly desert and a little grasslands next to me. My second city is all jungle area for the sceince bonus on jungle, my 3rd city is also mostly jungle and the 4th city is mostly desert but i went there for the marble, stone, incence and 6 iron all within reach of the city.


So i hadn't made my 3rd city until turn 150ish which seems to be long...

I pretty much have been between -3 and 0 happiness the whole game.

I immediately went for the education science so be cause of that, i was at turn 100ish and still had the bottom half of the sceince tree completly unreaserched....im still at warriors...lol

My gold production is at -8 right now and im 3-4 turns away from being at negative gold....

My city production is horrible since 2 of my city's have all food tiles and no production tiles...

Most of this mess was also there when i was about to make my 3rd city so i don't want to take the easy way out and simply say i made to many cities to fast... I definitly know i did something wrong.

Ohh and i forget which wonder it was but one of them i think needs schools or something in each city and every time i started it, i ended up making a new city and then need to first get the building in the new city before being able to get the wonder...

So.....questions...please answer even if its just a opinion

1) I hear that science wins usually benefits more city's since you can have more great scientist appear and also you can have more science total.. Is there a general rule of thumb on when you build your 2nd, 3rd, 4th cities... Do you expand real quick even though it hurts you early but benefits you long term...or do you always make sure your stabalized before building next city..

2) Even though jungle tiles are your goal for sceince (as i read online)...do you still try and find a location that has production tiles also (im assuming most will say that a good mix is key..lol but just homour me..lol)

3) I read that the first Great scientist you get, you should immediately use him to give a tile +8 science. If I would have done that, then at turn 150 i would have 1200 more science then i did....I"m thinking this is a good move....what do you think?

4) Important.... Do i rush to education, as in, only get there and leave everything else....or do i find a balance...

5) On the highest levels...imortal and the one before that...Do i need to focus on troops immediately. I keep hearing that the PC with attack if you seem a little weak?

thanks for any info

1) I build 3-4 cities (including my capitol) fairly early, then stabilize a little before expanding more.

2) You need production. Production builds science buildings etc.

3) Yes, improve the tile. It's better in the long run.

4) ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE STRATEGY!!! It's okay to rush a tech to an extent, but you can't go that far in the tech tree while ignoring everything else. All those other techs you ignored are needed to grow and expand your empire, becasue you neglected all this it hurt your science. Not to mention that anybody can invade you like a cakewalk becasue all you have is warriors, if that happens everything you did is lost. You need balance, with temporary moments of strategic tech rushing.

5) On higher levels you will get attacked if the AI thinks you are weak. You still need to build buildings/workers etc to grow and expand you empire. But more troops are essential and you need them early. It's a balancing act.

 

[Unresolved]

4) ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE STRATEGY!!! It's okay to rush a tech to an extent, but you can't go that far in the tech tree while ignoring everything else. All those other techs you ignored are needed to grow and expand your empire, becasue you neglected all this it hurt your science. Not to mention that anybody can invade you like a cakewalk becasue all you have is warriors, if that happens everything you did is lost. You need balance, with temporary moments of strategic tech rushing.

One of the dominating(figuratively speaking) strategies is indeed bee-lining the research techs. It's basically rush national college -> rush universities -> rush public schools -> rush Plastics -> rush Apollo -> win early.

 

[aluelkdf]

One of the dominating(figuratively speaking) strategies is indeed bee-lining the research techs. It's basically rush national college -> rush universities -> rush public schools -> rush Plastics -> rush Apollo -> win early.

Yes, but it's not good strategy to go all the way to education while completely ignoring everything else (which is what he did).

What if you have stone and marble, you can't even work them becasue those techs were ignored. The happiness is necessary for population growth and population is essential for science.

Workers can't build mines which are necessary for production.

And if you just click on education, and let the AI figure out the path for you, it won't be the best path. You should research trapping, animal husbandry, archery, calendar, and all the other basic ancient era techs that are needed to get the empire on it's feet. (all these are necessary for education anyway, so it makes sense to research them early to get the benefits they offer).

Not to mention that all he had was archers and warriors all the way to the medieval era. That's just asking to be easily conquered.

 

[Unresolved]

Which means he is still rushing universities either way. I would consider "not rushing" education if the player is going for Iron Working or something else that is not required.

 

[Smokeybear]

Which means he is still rushing universities either way. I would consider "not rushing" education if the player is going for Iron Working or something else that is not required.

I would advise he learn how to master the basics of just surviving and building things and maybe even winning a game once, before trying to master advanced-player rush tactics. Balance first, then the tricky stuff.

 

[whyidie]

I'd 2nd the don't worry about advanced tactics. Play at a good low level and enjoy yourself and learn without worrying about too much about optimal strategies....

Unless of course you are an optimizer....in which case naturesbandit laid it out pretty well.

Either way, welcome aboard!

 

[aluelkdf]

Mines help production, and production is needed to build libraries and universities. If there is lots of forest with no open land you need to chop down the forests to build farms, which is needed for population, and population is important for science. You can't do any of this without mining, which is why mining should always be one of the first techs researched regardless of what strategy you are using. Its a basic ancient tech thats needed to get the civ on its feet. To completely ignore that part of the tech tree for so long is counterproductive and bad strategy.

 

[smallfish]

5. I only play on level 6 (emperor), but from what I've seen on Let's Plays or read in other posts, is that you need to focus on units because the AI has such a ridiculous production bonus on the higher difficulties. They will throw endless waves of units at you which means you need to be prepared, and much better at them in maneuvering and counter-attacking.

No, definitely not endless even on Deity. if it was, having your average rig survive would be more of the main concern than surviving rushes

They definitely have pause times where they can't replenish their losses faster than you can kill them. CBs/Crossbows or fast blitz units like Keshiks can make them happen super fast - main thing is to not lose them or at least the highly promoted ones. Most of the time you will be holding off their rushes, making their boni heads bash themselves ceaselessly against an unassailable position... and then you counterattack

Here's a spankin' brand new (more than a week ole ) LP to show folks how btw, and he's got one of the toughest meanest AIs as a runaway "neighbor"

 

[Unresolved]

I would advise he learn how to master the basics of just surviving and building things and maybe even winning a game once, before trying to master advanced-player rush tactics. Balance first, then the tricky stuff.

I was only recommending what worked for me when I was extremely new. I went through this recently(first-time civ player at the very end of December) and playing with more 'advanced' strategies from the get-go helped me advance through the difficulties faster. It meant that I didn't have to relearn my whole game every time I stepped up a level because of a harder AI or whatever.

 

[joncnunn]

3. Great Scientists are tricky, and I'm not sure anyone has hard and fast rules about using them. Generally, if I get any great scientists before the modern age, I use them to build an academy. This is the tile that gives 8 science when worked by a citizen. After the modern age I'm usually bee-lining techs, so I use my great scientists to give me a boost.

I think that's a bit late to still be building Academys.

It's strongly looking to me like if your best science city has a Public School that from that point it's better to be Bulbing.
This is under the assumption that your not Korea (which I think may have a science bonus to great tile improvements in addition to specialists) and that your intending to complete Rationalism and open Order for faith based GEs as opposed to dropping progress in Rationalism and switching to Freedom in an attempt to get the Freedom closer soon enough to do any good.

But if you don't have the tech for Public Schools, an Academy looks better. In my current game as Babylon I managed to build 5 Academies for my capital before crossing that point. (That ought to have been an achievement for Babylon)

 

[Easycompany68]

I would advise he learn how to master the basics of just surviving and building things and maybe even winning a game once, before trying to master advanced-player rush tactics. Balance first, then the tricky stuff.

I actually played a game just before this one...I won that one pretty easy but i played on level 3...(easy i think).... I used japan and won by taking the other capitals...I think I understood the game but again, in that game i wasn't rushing to any techs...i just played and moved up the tech chain balanced.

I'm guessing that i'll have to try and keep a balance going up the tech tree but at the same time always take any opportunity to get to education as quickly as possible...

but i do agree, win first a few times before trying advanced strategies..