What are your Top 3 best "designed" civs?

[Stalker0]

A fun thread, not really for any balance discussion or anything. We often talk about a civ's "strength" without talking about its design. How well its pieces "flow" together, how well it fits its historical theme, etc etc. So what do you considered the best "designed" civs in VP?

I give everyone 3 (because who can only pick one). I have my first pick below, I'll think about my other ones.

For mine:

Portugal

UA - Sets Portugal as a solid trade loving civ, where money and science flow. But at the same time, the GG and GA bonuses actually matter a lot. Portugal is a civ that can expand aggressively and push borders...as well as having an incredible navy augmented by constant emergency healing (Great admirals) when needed. Portugal never lacks for supply. Portugal is very flexible, her Trade base gives her the yields needed to push into any style she wants. Lastly, access to an early Great Admiral can allow ocean exploration much earlier than most civs can do.

UU - While the Nau is not the most powerful UU, its one of my personal favorites to use. The Nau perfectly sets the tone of Portugal's history theme of nautical discovery and exploration. The feitoria drops really encourage you to seek out every CS on the map to get the biggest bonuses.

Lastly, the Nau's gold generation allows you to gold buy an instant navy....with the extra XP ensuring those purchased ships have modern naval promotion. This allows Portugal to always have a strong and large navy around the time of exploration....perfectly fitting her theme.

UB - The feitoria combines well with ETRs to CS with statecraft later in the game. At a time when CS ETRs can look paltry compared to trade with main civs, the feitoria keeps those TRs relevant. The UB also fits Portugal's strong nautical theme, encouraging coastal expansion....and the good hammer bonuses make island expansions more productive than normal, which again encourages a playstyle not seen in all civs.

Overall - Portugal is my favorite "sea-faring" civ, and I feel like all aspects of her kit help fit that theme. But, she gets a well rounded science focus combined with GG/GA production that can help her offset other weaknesses, making not just a thematic civ, but a strong one as well.

 

[Bryan317]

Love these discussions. I would say I've tried about half of the civs. And I plan on trying them all. I have also always played aggressively. But actually I think I'm just trying to experience every aspect of the game every playthrough. I always found a religion and I like making war for something to do. I would need to make more peaceful playthroughs to make a final decision.

My current playthrough has changed my opinion on the best overall civ. The best overall civilization hands down is Rome. All three of their unique attributes are the best. Acquiring all buildings is great, especially when you get a free courthouse. Legions need to be built in mass. It is very important to secure as much iron as possible during this time and build them as long as you can. Why? Cover II. This promotion can be overlooked, but getting a free promotion that is this high up in the tier is positively game breaking. You can surround cities and just Fortify. And coliseums... Good Lord. I have practically golden aged this entire game.

My old favorite was the Aztecs. The way to win this game is to try to build yourself up to a landslide as quickly as possible. The Aztecs are based solely around dominating the ancient times. They are certainly the best civ to build nothing but Jaguars from the beginning. Maybe a couple settlers, then more Jaguars. And you will absolutely dominate the ancient times. And the faith they are generating just snowballs out of control. I could talk about the other attributes, but it's really all about the Jaguars lol The point is, once you have taken over a vast empire so early, and get your happiness under control you will be unstoppable. This game works exponentially...

A recent one I had the most fun with was The Maya. Getting those free great people, and getting them so early, is just exciting! And versatile as well. You can choose the one you want, when you want it. And it's not very often you could get something like a Great Artist in ancient times. I recall It was extremely helpful to get a free great prophet to enhance my religion instead of beelining to Hagia Sophia (my usual tactic)

 

[pineappledan]

My opinions re: three best 'design' is a civ that encourages me to play in a unique way that feels unique and genuine to the civ.

Aztec: Winning wars to trigger Golden ages that increase Food in all your cities, while also gaining faith through kills. Excellent design invoking the Flower Wars that the Aztec used to leverage their larger population base to bleed their neighbours over centuries. Excellent design, both effective in practice and evocative.

India: This one is more controversial, because various changes to happiness, beliefs, and faith mechanics have left India constantly out in the cold for balance. The design itself, however, is sound. India's Hindu majority is as enduring and ancient a legacy as it is pernicious. The export of Indian culture, architecture, and religion throughout Southeast Asia, and the influence of their spirituality and philosophy overtaking Endemic Chinese and Japanese practices deserved representation in game. We have that in the form of India's population forming an overwhelming tide of pressure which makes India's religious supremacy within a certain radius of them only a matter of time. My 1 misgiving is their lack of cultural tools.

Denmark: Wars of pillage, more than conquest. Civs that reward you for very different priorities, but don't feel like they're penalizing you are great. There aren't enough mechanics in the whole game so that every civ can have a whole game mechanic to themselves like the Danish do, but it certainly means this 1 civ isn't lacking in uniqueness or flavor. The 1 criticism I have of the unit is the Berserker, which is a UU that feels so powerful under the right circumstances, it can just feel like cheating.

 

[bahamut19]

1) Persia. I enjoy the ability to play towards Great Ages, GAP, and the power spikes Persia regularly has. Even though their kit suggests to dominate, to optimize the Great Ages you must have an eye towards culture and certain wonders and beliefs. Plus, the Satrap's Court is great for extra gold for whatever purpose you find. I love their "jack-of-all-trades ability and the flexibility my game can have. 4UC helps emphasize this point very well and I love the entire kit.

2) America. Seeing is knowing, and no one can see the world around them as well as America. This helps give a tactical edge over barbs and AI units, gaining ancient ruins, or identifying the best settling places. And the best part is if you do want a piece of land someone else already claimed, you can take it without using a Citadel. This baseline allows greater efficiency to fight and to build infrastructure, even if it is indirect and less than obvious. Combine this with having the Minuteman having both extra vision and extra mobility in rough terrain, you have the tools you need for Manifest Destiny. Many disregard the Smithsonian as being a weak unique, but it also helps make your weak points a little less weak. Not every unique needs to thrust you towards a victory, but some can indirectly assist in supplementing a victory by hiding a few weaknesses here and there.

3) For a non-VP civ which I wish were a VP civ. Poverty Point. I love their effigy mound / Fox Man abilities and could see with a slight rework, this being a very unique Civ to join the ranks of my VP games. It actually does work in VP, but it is unbalanced.

 

[CrazyG]

1. Arabia
It's just really fun to play. The UA feels good to collect and maximizing it takes a lot of experience. It interacts with so many different features of the game. Also good for consistently being strong, but never quite OP. Consistently a top 15 civ without being a top 5 'please nerf' candidate, the perfect level of power in my opinion.

2. Polynesia
The Moai just fundamentally change the game. Suddenly crap land becomes amazing and you place cities in locations you ordinarily never would. The embarking changes everything starting on turn 1 and discovering the entire world quickly is a surprisingly strong bonus. You consider weird social policy and religion combinations when playing him. A civ that benefits a lot from learning it (I love tutelary gods with Polynesia, and that synergy is incredibly not- obvious). His soundtrack helps too, just because it's such a huge change of pace from normal civs.

3. India
I find the idea of a grossly powerful trait combined with crippling weakness really interesting, and this is a better execution of it than Venice. He does a great job of introducing new strategies no other civ would use. India can have brutally difficult (but winabble) games but also just blow away the competition quickly. Also the turn 0 pantheon creates an interesting risk-reward trade-off that can be really skill testing. I find India really rewards creativity and deep knowledge of the game's features.

Honorable mentions to Portugal, Babylon, and Aztec, very fun designs to play. Just a really coherent set of traits that's strong without being too obvious. Should Portugal take Tradition, Progress, or Authority? The answer's unclear until you play them all!

 

[looorg]

Are we just talking out of the box base civs here, totally unmodded? Cause my answer will/might change if one includes the 3-4 component mod.

While I can see something or construct something with most civs there is really only a handful that I come back to over and over again as great starters or that flow into each other where unit, building and power feed each other and they have already been mentioned. It's Monty and Aztecs. They are just great at playing and both unit, building and power flow almost perfectly into each other.

If one includes 3-4 then I find Germany very interesting, you build that one or two of their special unit and it will raise an entire army for you. Without the mod Germany is bit of an odd civ in my opinion.

 

[Bryan317]

I must say that the civs in VP have all gotten so useful that it's hard to choose even a top 3. Which is good! The goal was to make them ALL equally useful. Different tactics... But equally useful. Even just a reminder of the strength of the Byzantines makes me want to do a run with them again lol I'm wondering if a bottom 3 "poorly designed" civ thread would be prudent. Now, I don't like a terminology that insulting to our devs more like... "Civs that need work"

I put America in that category. They just seem boring. I overlook them every time I'm choosing a civ. However, I can see I'm not alone, as I've seen that civ is under scrutiny on this forum.

 

[looorg]

I'm wondering if a bottom 3 "poorly designed" civ thread would be prudent.

Isn't that just all the civs that are getting unique buildings, powers and unit that are very late-game-centric? You need the powerful starter and not just to hobble along and survive until it kicks in.

 

[Bryan317]

Isn't that just all the civs that are getting unique buildings, powers and unit that are very late-game-centric? You need the powerful starter and not just to hobble along and survive until it kicks in.

Unfortunately you're point is mostly correct. The phrase I always use is "this game works exponentially" it's just my way in layman's terms to say the more you can spread yourself out early the better off you'll be, regardless of what civ you choose.

So a flat observation would be that late game unique abilities/buffs should be exponentially better than one's received in ancient times let's say.

Solution? The unique ability of the Leader needs to be significantly better for a civ that will receive Late Era unique building and units. If the civ gets early units or buildings their Leader's ability should be less impressive.

 

[pineappledan]

While I disagree with your assessment of late game civ’s being de facto worse — Austria, Sweden and Portugal are beasts, for example — I do think late game civs get tested less, and suffer from less feedback and interest overall. Consequently, my bottom 3 are France, Germany and Ottomans, in that order, but I would consider Ottomans more of an early game civ.

the greater emphasis on UA is a factor, yes. The 3 I mentioned are mainly deficient on their UAs.

 

[Stalker0]

Tsk tsk, changing the subject 180 degrees is about as off topic as you can get. Make a new thread if you want to talk about designs that need work.

 

[Bryan317]

Tsk tsk, changing the subject 180 degrees is about as off topic as you can get. Make a new thread if you want to talk about designs that need work.

Indeed, it wasn't my intention. I was kind of probing the idea before just doing it

 

[Bryan317]

While I disagree with your assessment of late game civ’s being de facto worse — Austria, Sweden and Portugal are beasts, for example — I do think late game civs get tested less, and suffer from less feedback and interest overall. Consequently, my bottom 3 are France, Germany and Ottomans, in that order, but I would consider Ottomans more of an early game civ.

the greater emphasis on UA is a factor, yes. The 3 I mentioned are mainly deficient on their UAs.

Oh man I love the Ottomans. In fact taking over their siege foundries as another civ is one of the few times you get to inherit another civs ability

 

[CrazyG]

Isn't that just all the civs that are getting unique buildings, powers and unit that are very late-game-centric? You need the powerful starter and not just to hobble along and survive until it kicks in.

Austria is pretty late-game oriented but well designed IMO.

There's a difference between worst (in power) and worse design. For example Persia is pretty good but a poll a while back showed that he was found not too interesting by the players as a group (but not everyone!). Venice and India also have a lot of fans even though they can sometimes be terrible.

 

[randomnub]

I'm quite slow at playing the game hence I'm biased toward early civs

1. Aztecs

Fun early game, cheap and quick UU with good synergy with both UA and UB. It also rewards ending wars quick, unique gameplay and avoids unnecessary slogs.

2. Carthage

It has the potential to snowball very hard, the UA and UU triggers both very early and help being a bully while building toward a more peaceful winning position. The trade route boost in the UA feels underwhelming nowadays given how gold is calculated due to distance and that's a pity, else the UW would be even more synergic.

3. Persia

I don't consider it particulary strong in human hands (deity AI bonus to gold/happiness make it a more fearsome opponent usually) but the kit is pretty well designed: the UU gives you an edge in the period before GAs trigger, after that it's quite fun to plan for war when the GA clock triggers. Gold helps getting GAs, and GAs build more gold, while the UB gives a little bit of both. The latest nerf to trade deals made it worse for the player but it's overall a nice mechanic. UB being a courthouse is quite unique as well.

 

[Imalich]

1. Aztec. Nothing more to add, Montezuma is love, Montezuma is life. Well... not really, but we all love him anyway.

2. Denmark. Feels great, rewarding and not gamey at all. Very unique design and well fleshed-out. Cheers.

3. Maya. It's weird, yes. The tech rush is also very strange. But I enjoyed the few games I played as Maya so much... And whoever made the Kuna? Bless you!

 

[Melchizedek]

1. Babylon. Their kit has a clear direction but with plenty of flexibility, and as an AI opponent provides a substantial challenge. I play on Emperor; if I had to beat deity tomorrow I'd take Babylon because they give the player some defensive help and options relevant to any VC on any map. Yet, although strong, they're not unfairly strong.
2. Portugal. Pretty much for the reasons in the OP.
3. India. They're drastically different and I like the idea of making farmland with a potent religion into a dangerous culture and science powerhouse late game. The instant pantheon is very powerful yet finicky, and the Harpannan Reservoir is also map dependent. The lack of missionaries creates a different notion of what your religion is for. This adds up to each game being quite different. Some of them are unwinnable, but that is okay with me because I care a lot more about each game being a fun challenge than each game being balanced.

 

[mrpilhas]

Portugal. Naus everywhere. We were on the top of the world for a brief moment in history, and its well represented in the game.
Polynesia. Unique gameplay, and u can have the most beautifull land with Moais. Having the world discovered before turn 100 feels good
Morocco. I love Kasbah. But what I really love is killing that annoying civ economy by plunder their trade routes. Last game with them I had Japan in an isolated continent. He hated me just because I was friend with China. I had a mini fleet parked on his borders killing any atempt of them to trade with anyone. Much fun

I would choose Netherlands too just because you can do whatever you want and do well. Like Polynesia u can have the most beautifull land. Yeah, I love civs with unique tile improvements.

 

[Laz0r]

In no particular order my picks are:
Rome
Rome is interesting because while it is meant for warmongering, most of the benefit of the civ comes from it's ability to support intelligent expansion rather than directly making it easier through combat boons. The UU gives Rome aid in early overexpansion and forward settling with the potent defensive promotions it has, while also providing a decent but not overpowering offensive boon unless you get it early. The UB gives Rome importantly some early production and culture, and also gives Rome some fantastic snowballing potential for well executed warring with the gold, GG/GA, and most importantly the GAP yield. Lastly, the UA is also fantastic, making new cities that are settled easier to establish and make useful, and particularly giving Rome excellent cities that can be useful very soon after capture. (You can also get insane advantages if you capture the right UB's like the Zulu barracks or Japanese armoury)
Byzantium
Excellent in it's simplicity, Byzantium gives you one perfect, guaranteed religion which can be tailored to suit any playstyle and which is superior to normal religions, and helps you accomplish it. You aren't tailored inherently to any single playstyle so you can get creative with the religion you make and have sufficient faith income and discounts to make great use of it.
Germany
This is another civ like Rome that rewards smart play with snowball potential, but even more drastically than Rome. Germany's UB and UA play off each other very well, with the hanse enabling the player to wrest control of city states in order to gain science and culture, and with that science and culture being able to further expand production and gold output causing a snowball effect. All this benefit is predicated however on how well you perform diplomatically (not getting sanctioned, not getting your trade routes pillaged), militarily (expanding in order to secure said trade routes/deter invaders.), and economically (having plenty of gold and production to fund the previous two ventures as well as allying city states). Germany also has basically no benefits in the earlygame so you are more vulnerable especially if you are surrounded by earlygame bloomers, and are required to be far more perfect in that period of time (or savescum like I do).

 

[Bruhmoment]

I like the celts, unique pantheon bonus can really have you snowballing (or the A.I), and it's not too advanced.
I love the aztecs, warmonger and get lots of food. Very nice.
And uhhh. Rome? Their bonuses aren't just towards aggresive expansion, it's also towards general expansion, I guess