What constitutes a civilization?

[Cía]

The youngest civ in the game is America, and u can't say that America dosent derservr to be in the game. But it u want any other civ to be included that are younger than America (like Brazil), well, then that civ must have had so much power as America (or more). I mean, if u want a younger civ then America incuded, then u implie that that civ has been as important as America (which is just silly).

 

[Zhahz]

/yawn

Glad some of you people have nothing to do with designing this GAME since you seem to be kind of miserable people.

 

[Kimuyama]

/yawn

Glad some of you people have nothing to do with designing this GAME since you seem to be kind of miserable people.

*like*

Anyhow, as there is no actual definition of civilization, the game developers can add whatever society they want.
I see a civilization as a group of peoples with a similar society, but that definition is highly fractal, for example, the countries adhering to the abrahamic religions can be viewed as one civilization, as their peoples all base their way of living on the same ground principles, these can further be divided into: Christian, Islamic and Jewish, or Semitic and Non-semitic abrahamic civilizations, in turn, these can be divided into: European, Arabic, Persian, Indonesian, Central Asian and African civilizations.
These can then be divided into: Western European, Eastern European, Southern European, Latin American, Caribbean, Maghrebic, Arabian, Mesopotamian, Eastern Persian, Western Persian (Iranian), western African, eastern African, southern African and central African civilizations.
It goes even deeper, but I won't divide every single "civ" now, I'll divide the "europeic" ones, with further divisions in paranthesis and civs not in the game in italic:
- Western european:

Anglic (England, USA, arguably the modern iteration of the Celts)
Germanic (Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Goths)
Nordic (Denmark, Sweden, Finland)
Celtic (Celts (Britons and Geals, it seems like), Gauls)​

- Southern european:

Latin European (France (Also WE), Rome, Spain, Portugal, Venice)
Hellenic (Rome again, Greece, Byzanthium, Etruscans)​

- Eastern European:

East Slavic (Russia, Ukraine)
West Slavic (Poland)
South Slavic (Jugoslavia)
Baltic (Lithuania)​

- Latin American:

Northern South America, "Andnean" (Peru (Inca), Bolivia, Gran Colombia)
Mexico (Aztecs, Maya)
Central America (Well, Mayans, kind of)
Southern South america "The cone" (Argentina)
Brazil​

- Caribbean:

The Guyanas
Hispanic Caribbean (Cuba)
Anglic Caribbean (West Indies Federation, Bahamas)
Haiti (Now that'd be interesting!)​

Point is, there might be a few Civilizations in the world:


A couple of civilizations:


Or a LOT of civilizations:

 

[Liex]

The youngest civ in the game is America, and u can't say that America dosent derservr to be in the game. But it u want any other civ to be included that are younger than America (like Brazil), well, then that civ must have had so much power as America (or more). I mean, if u want a younger civ then America incuded, then u implie that that civ has been as important as America (which is just silly).

By your logic the Zulu Kingdom is at least as important as the USA, Carthage is as important as Rome, and so on.

/yawn

Glad some of you people have nothing to do with designing this GAME since you seem to be kind of miserable people.

I couldn't tell, but I like to think myself as a PLAYER. And as a player I just think the GAME could be more interesting, so I make suggestions. I'm sure you can respect that.

 

[MaximusK]

Well, I have to say that if anyone is interested in reading a scholarly treatment of the long-running debate as to what qualifies as a civilization. The introduction to this book is great for this . . . the whole book is great in general. This is one of my favorite world history authors (his book 1492 is great as well).

Civilizations by Felipe Fernandez-Armesto

 

[King Kalmah]

Drug lords and salsa dancing. These exist nowhere else in the world. I don't know why people think we don't have drug lords or salsa dancing, but we do, and that's fact. Does Europe have either? No.

Well actually Salsa dancing is a form of folk dancing.It comes from their past.

Plus look at any other part of the world they have "folk" dances.

Plus its not just that,but think of the Russian Mob and other Mafias...

Are they not drug cartels?

except maybe the old school Italian mob.They didn't sell drugs.

Anyway don't get too worked up.I used to cry and get angry about Hungary not being in CIV...does that really help things when the day is over?

I mean Aztecs have been in CIV for a long time now.Plus Inca,Maya and other cultures have a good chance at getting in the game.

If I were you I'd wait another ten years then start complaining if Brazil is not in the game...


EDIT

Actually Latin America has influence the Globe...How?

By their food.The style it is made and even the way it is cooked.Its unique.Marinated Carne Asada is the best or how about Kim-chi pork Tacos?!

Yes America is slowly being taken over by Latin American cuisine...When I was a kid it was pork chops and Chicken Pot pies...but now its burritos or spaghetti tacos?!

maybe CIV6 will have Mexico or Brazil...you never know...

 

[gps]

Why do people nominate modern-day countries for Civilization? The game is called civilization, not country or nation-state last that I checked.

Well, because from the beginning great Sid himself - plus all his successors - never properly made that destinction and constantly put modern day countries into the game that don't really qualify as individual civilizations. This goes for more or less all of the European / western Nations. Even Austria nowadays has been promoted to civilization status...
Although the game is called Civilization that does not mean the individual empires have to be civilizations - however the makers in most parts actually call them civilizations (in III they are called tribes!!!). IV explicitely has the civics "nationhood" and "police state", both clearly indicating the makers do not differentiate properly between nation, state and civilization. And if the makers don't differentiate properly, how can one blame players for not doing so either?

 

[True_Candyman]

I have a conundrum. If the game is called civilisation, and subsequently the most civilised societies in conventional terms of development, urbanisation, culture etc should be included, then why do we not have the Khmer who built the largest urbanised area by a HUGE margin before the industrial era? Why do we not have the Sumerians who began civilisation as we define it?

What constitutes a civilisation is what will appeal to a predominantly European player base, that is as many western nations as you can imagine and the odd one dotted around the globe to create an exotic atmosphere.

 

[gps]

I have a conundrum. ... why do we not have the Khmer who built the largest urbanised area by a HUGE margin before the industrial era? Why do we not have the Sumerians who began civilisation as we define it?

There are incarnations of the Civ-series that have the Sumerians - and also the Khmer...

 

[True_Candyman]

There are incarnations of the Civ-series that have the Sumerians - and also the Khmer...

Are they no longer civilisations then? Has it recently been discovered they have no place in the civ series?

Or are they being left out because defining civilisation is irrelevant?

France, England, Germany, America, Russia, Persia, Egypt, Babylon, even Ethiopia have featured in previous incarnations and are also in civ 5. So Khmer and Sumer are less civilised than all these?

 

[Louis XXIV]

You aren't seriously suggesting that every single Civilization that ever existed must be included, are you?

 

[True_Candyman]

You aren't seriously suggesting that every single Civilization that ever existed must be included, are you?

No, of course not. I'm saying that clearly there is no definition of civilisation involved in the selection process so anything and everything CAN be included.

Not that there would be anything wrong with including everything ever, i think that would be awesome.

 

[shaglio]

I say, "the more, the merrier," but there has to be a limit somewhere. Making a Civ for the Dani in the Baliem Valley in New Guinea would be absolutely ridiculous. Everybody else but them I'm fine with

 

[Louis XXIV]

No, of course not. I'm saying that clearly there is no definition of civilisation involved in the selection process so anything and everything CAN be included.

Not that there would be anything wrong with including everything ever, i think that would be awesome.

The only thing worth pointing out is there isn't a contradiction between saying "not every Civilization can be included" and "we should not include non-Civilizations." I agree the definition of civilization is vague, but I do think there are things that aren't enough to qualify. And, regardless of how interesting they might be, they shouldn't be included. The absence of Khmer doesn't mean East Timor should be considered.

 

[Gucumatz]

But now its burritos or spaghetti tacos?!

.

I just got to say Facepalm

You think thats Latin American Food? Whats next you think Taco Bell counts even as food?

 

[King Kalmah]

I just got to say Facepalm

You think thats Latin American Food? Whats next you think Taco Bell counts even as food?

No you misunderstood me...its not the food(spaghetti taco)...its the culture and the amazing pace at which Korean,Italian and Chinese food has been hybrid with native food from central America...Think of the food trucks that are in Texas,California and I think NYC...They combine the best of both worlds and it brings Latin style food to an even greater audience of people then ever before...

I think in five years it will be like how Curry,kabobs and Indian food took over Europe...

Remember how noodles from China combined with meat from Italy to form Spaghetti?



Dude don't even get me started on Taco Bell....For one when I was dumb enough to eat that crap it would not only give me ...never mind...but also really bad heartburn....

Anyway one day long ago when I could afford a nice combo from a fast food place I choose Taco Bell...(yes I know stupid)...

Anyway...I walk in there and slip in a nice puddle of spilled soda and this angry old Spanish chick comes out and starts yelling at me.I leave cause I thought she was gonna call the cops.

Anyway the point of my story is that not only are the people at Taco Bell not even smart enough to clean up spills,but they don't even think to use those little caution signs that are EVERYWHERE when there is a wet surface...

What if that had happened to some old lady?...she'd be dead....

TACO BELL=Bad for your health

Also if your are ever in California I recommend you try Del Taco,the place Taco bell ripped off...they aren't exactly Latin American food,but its better then the trash they serve at Taco Bell...

 

[Zhahz]

If the designers of the game put a civ in the game, than it's a "civilization" - since it's just a game and they make these decisions. The civs are ultimately containers or covers for stats and data, and getting all worked up and/or thinking it's more than a game and data is probably mentally unhealthy.

 

[Liex]

If I were you I'd wait another ten years then start complaining if Brazil is not in the game...

The good thing is that Civ never gets old... just like we never get old enough for Civ... As for Brazil, it'll be the same in 10 years, but I do hope to see something from South America before that.

Actually Latin America has influence the Globe...How?

By their food.The style it is made and even the way it is cooked.Its unique.Marinated Carne Asada is the best or how about Kim-chi pork Tacos?!

Yes America is slowly being taken over by Latin American cuisine...When I was a kid it was pork chops and Chicken Pot pies...but now its burritos or spaghetti tacos?!

Just a side note: I guess all these foods you mentioned are Mexican before Latin American. They're probably more popular in USA (and Mexico) than in most Latin America. Anyway, just as side note.

 

[GenjiKhan]

If I were you I'd wait another ten years then start complaining if Brazil is not in the game...

It would be more unfair if during these ten years,another "modern civ" like Canada or Australia gets before Brazil,considering their world influence and their culture uniqueness . About Mexico,I guess they are in a similar situation of Italia and Iran because each one represents indirectly old civs .

 

[Lose]

Um, drug lords are insanely rich and insanely powerful. Our economy is great.

Drug lords and salsa dancing. These exist nowhere else in the world. I don't know why people think we don't have drug lords or salsa dancing, but we do, and that's fact. Does Europe have either? No. We're a civilization, they're not, and yet somehow, by some ironic twist of evil fate, they're in the game, but we're not.

LOL this kid is obviously trolling, or he has no idea what he is talking about. I also doubt that his IQ is 160.
Moderator Action: Please don't troll back.