What constitutes a stereotype?

[klail]

I don't get all the hockey hate. Golf is fine but hockey is bad? Canada invented hockey.

 

[humble serf]

That's a great way to put it. I don't necessarily mind the mounties or the hockey rink, because I thought that's what they would get anyway, but my problem was the whole tundra ability. Even if Civ's version of tundra equals "Canadian" prairies because if that were the case why didn't the Cree get tundra bonuses either especially since Poundmaker's Cree tribe lived on the praries.

It would of made more sense, in my opinion, for the bonuses to be able to expand quicker on plains and/or woods tiles faster and plains farms add more food as there aren't really any Civ bonuses toward those particular types of terrain, where as Russia already had a tundra ability.

In the end it probably comes down to the fact that plains are (arguably) both the strongest and the most common terrain in the game, so the devs don't see "good at settling plains tiles" as a viable civ design. Tundra isn't going to be anybody's favourite place to settle even with Laurier's bonuses, so I imagine Canada will still be primarily a sub-arctic civ, just with an above-average amount of tundra cities.

I don't get all the hockey hate. Golf is fine but hockey is bad? Canada invented hockey.

To be fair, I don't think many of the people criticising the hockey rink would describe Scotland's golf course as "fine."

 

[steveg700]

I don't get all the hockey hate. Golf is fine but hockey is bad? Canada invented hockey.

Klail, why conclude golf and hockey are being treated differently?

I'm sure much of the same "tee-hee totscutezadorbz lolz" crowd that welcomed Scottish golf courses gave a thumbs up to hockey rinks. Likewise, I bet most of them cranky sourpusses bringing down the room with their goings-on about stereotypes and standards got all stank-eye over golf courses too. I know the latter applies to me, at least.

Though it occurs to me, the golf course makes a certain ham-handed sense, mechanically speaking. Scottland gets some bonuses from being happy, and golf courses generate entertainment amenities. Very paint-by-numbers design, but at least a paint-by-numbers set is coherent. In terms of playstyle, Canada's uniques just seem like esoteric concepts thrown together. Do hockey rinks and mounties do anything to gel with resolving emergencies? Something to give Canada an edge in peacekeeping and relief efforts would have evoked Canada's contributions to the world stage, not just travel brochure elements.

Let's see, I guess the hockey rinks go with tundra, and that gives something to do with otherwise marginal terrain. Mounties build parks, but tundra is not a source of appeal. There can be mountains, lakes, and forests in tundra, but I don't think they're more common there. but I guess since the terrain is rubbish, a player's more likely to have four unimproved tiles? I dunno. Seems like the mountains would be used for holy sites and campuses just as likely (who can resist tucking a campus away in a cozy mountain nook?), and the forests are just as likely to get the ol' chopperoo (in fact, if droughts don't occur on tundra tiles, then it's all the more ideal place to send some lubmerjacks).

Haven't seen anybody talk about it yet, but it sure seems weird to give a military unit the ability of a naturalist. Not simply from a verisimilitude angle, but rather because the game design assumes parks are a big deal to have, thus the premium costs for a naturalist, which start sky-high and then escalate from there.

 

[NukeAJS]

I can get hockey rinks and all the other stuff. They're cliché, sure, but cliché isn't necessarily a bad thing. The American film studio is clichéd as hell, but I think Hollywood or American cinema more broadly is/was an extremely culturally significant institution even if there are only large film studios in LA, NYC, and Atlanta. Hockey isn't a huge global cultural force (needing cold weather or expensive indoor rinks isn't helpful in this regard), but it is something nearly everybody recognizes as Canadian and is popular enough that if you're playing a game on a PC or console, you're probably at least vaguely familiar with it. Having lived in Canada for about a year, I can say that the stereotype that Canadians like hockey is true. Of course not every single Canadian likes hockey, but they're in the minority.

I do take issue with the mountie though. While they're certainly iconic, I don't really see them as being militarily significant. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that missed opportunities were the worst part of some of the uniques and for the mountie, I agree. This would have been a great chance to use a special if not-so-well-known Canadian military unit.

For the record -- I actually really like their special ability to build a national park, but perhaps making naturalists hard-buildable/purchasable with coin would have been the better way to go if they wanted to keep this mechanic.

 

[humble serf]

I can get hockey rinks and all the other stuff. They're cliché, sure, but cliché isn't necessarily a bad thing. The American film studio is clichéd as hell, but I think Hollywood or American cinema more broadly is/was an extremely culturally significant institution even if there are only large film studios in LA, NYC, and Atlanta. Hockey isn't a huge global cultural force (needing cold weather or expensive indoor rinks isn't helpful in this regard), but it is something nearly everybody recognizes as Canadian and is popular enough that if you're playing a game on a PC or console, you're probably at least vaguely familiar with it. Having lived in Canada for about a year, I can say that the stereotype that Canadians like hockey is true. Of course not every single Canadian likes hockey, but they're in the minority.

The film studio isn't at all clichéd, and certainly doesn't compare to the hockey rink in that regard. For one thing, American movies are one of the most defining mediums of 20th century culture, and are objectively worthy of inclusion in a game which deals with the role of culture in history. They're also the most important factor in America's pursuit of the IRL cultural victory, which no other nation has come closer to winning.

For another thing, nobody has ever been asked "Oh, you're American? So you must really love directing romantic comedies, right?"

 

[Victoria]

expand onto "prairies" ... cultivate tourism through national parks and winter sports, and use that tourism to push for a cultural or diplomatic victory.

Not sure there is a lot of beauty in that tundra... +2 appeal from hockey is not the same as a +4 tile.....I think they will struggle with many parks but glad to be proven wrong.

They're also the most important factor in America's pursuit of the IRL cultural victory, which no other nation has come closer to winning

Hmmm, Great later game CV but you cannot beat the greeks in a fast CV.

 

[humble serf]

Not sure there is a lot of beauty in that tundra... +2 appeal from hockey is not the same as a +4 tile.....I think they will struggle with many parks but glad to be proven wrong.

Seems to be a common sentiment here, but I've found tundra to be one of the better terrain types for appeal. It often comes with mountains, forests and coasts, and has a decent array of natural wonders. Better mountain range generation (which I think was mentioned in the Inca stream?) should also help with parks, since there should be more mountain-adjacent spots left in the modern era that aren't already campuses and holy sites.

On top of all that, mounties are basically just cheaper, more spammable naturalists.

Anyway, I doubt that the majority of Canada's cities will be in the tundra (in most games), so they should have plenty of chances to build parks elsewhere.

I'm still ready to believe in the Canadian culture victory.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Not sure there is a lot of beauty in that tundra... +2 appeal from hockey is not the same as a +4 tile.....I think they will struggle with many parks but glad to be proven wrong.

Canada may struggle more than other civs to get parks. Most of the time when I can find places for parks, it's in tundra land bordering my civ that I haven't bothered to settle. To the extent that Canada wants to place cities in or near those areas, put campuses/holy sites up against those mountains, use Builder charges to put down farms, mines, or hockey rinks in those tiles, it will cut down on the possible locations for such parks.

Offsetting that a bit is if Canada gets a tundra bias, it will have polar regions bordering it's empire more often than other civs.

On top of all that, mounties are basically just cheaper, more spammable naturalists.

Do we actually know that they're cheaper than naturalists? We do know that they're more flexible than naturalists, as they can be bought with gold or production rather than simply faith, but I'm not sure if we've seen their production/gold cost.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Seems to be a common sentiment here, but I've found tundra to be one of the better terrain types for appeal. It often comes with mountains, forests and coasts, and has a decent array of natural wonders. Better mountain range generation (which I think was mentioned in the Inca stream?) should also help with parks, since there should be more mountain-adjacent spots left in the modern era that aren't already campuses and holy sites.

On top of all that, mounties are basically just cheaper, more spammable naturalists.

Anyway, I doubt that the majority of Canada's cities will be in the tundra (in most games), so they should have plenty of chances to build parks elsewhere.

I'm still ready to believe in the Canadian culture victory

The Canadian culture will be a secondary victory type depending on the starting location and where you will be able to expand in the early game. If those spots get taken up you will have to denounce the leader first, then go to war which will take longer, and possibly ruin some diplomacy points that you might need in the future.
Maybe it's just me but I usually don't find mountains in tundra at all and I agree it might be better if you go south of the tundra for those national park spots. The other alternative is if you have possibly a good spot in the tundra you want to plop down a ice hockey rink adjacent to where you want the park for the appeal to go up.
The diplomatic victory, in my opinion, will be their main focus since it won't be dependent on what terrain you might get.

 

[Plaidman]

For what it's worth I think that they did an excellent job capturing the character of Canada with the Four Faces of Peace civ ability. I think Canada's irl strengths are in peacekeeping and international cooperation and the diplomatic bonuses for culture/emergencies/competitions align well with that. Though the UUs are a tad cliche (and, like, whatever, it's Civ!) I think Canada's gameplay is going to feel very Canadian, and I'm looking forward to that.

Civ design is more than just integrating iconic units, works and images of a civilization into the game, it's also about capturing a civilization's character in a way that makes for good gameplay. I have high hopes for Canada in that regard.

 

[steveg700]

I can get hockey rinks and all the other stuff. They're cliché, sure, but cliché isn't necessarily a bad thing. The American film studio is clichéd as hell, but I think Hollywood or American cinema more broadly is/was an extremely culturally significant institution even if there are only large film studios in LA, NYC, and Atlanta. Hockey isn't a huge global cultural force (needing cold weather or expensive indoor rinks isn't helpful in this regard), but it is something nearly everybody recognizes as Canadian and is popular enough that if you're playing a game on a PC or console, you're probably at least vaguely familiar with it.

Right, so film studios actually represent something potent and compelling in terms of cultural dominance, and they fit innocuously into the theater district instead of a broadcast center. Hockey rinks are more just cute and act as something a lolz-inducing site gag. The thing about cutesay gags is that they appeal to a very fickle aspect of human nature.

Every time someone starts a discussion as to why obscure, unaccomplished leaders are selected for an established civ, or when some footnote city-state or stuck-in-the-stone-age tribal culture makes the new civ list, no shortage of folks show up to laud how great it is to be given an occasion to learn something new about an aspect of world history instead of just grabbing the low-hanging fruit. Where did they get to?

 

[steveg700]

For what it's worth I think that they did an excellent job capturing the character of Canada with the Four Faces of Peace civ ability. I think Canada's irl strengths are in peacekeeping and international cooperation and the diplomatic bonuses for culture/emergencies/competitions align well with that.

I don't think anyone is bothered about the FFP ability, at least as far as thoughtful depictions of Canada goes.

 

[Disgustipated]

Right, so film studios actually represent something potent and compelling in terms of cultural dominance, and they fit innocuously into the theater district instead of a broadcast center. Hockey rinks are more just cute and act as something a lolz-inducing site gag.

Is it not culture though? I think most people against this probably hate sports or hockey in general. My city never even really cared about hockey when I was a kid. But now the sport has spread South. That is your cultural influence taking hold in the States. That is culture. Is that any different from our films spreading North to your country?

 

[Forster]

We even have a hockey team in GA. Not at the level of the major hockey teams, but it does seem to be spreading. Personally, I think all the violence is also acting as a draw.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Right, so film studios actually represent something potent and compelling in terms of cultural dominance, and they fit innocuously into the theater district instead of a broadcast center. Hockey rinks are more just cute and act as something a lolz-inducing site gag. The thing about cutesay gags is that they appeal to a very fickle aspect of human nature.

Is it not culture though? I think most people against this probably hate sports or hockey in general. My city never even really cared about hockey when I was a kid. But now the sport has spread South. That is your cultural influence taking hold in the States. That is culture. Is that any different from our films spreading North to your country?

I find the golf course to be more of a funny gag than the hockey rink. However I like both, and just like hockey, golf has spread all across the world and, at the same time, is important to the cultural history of Scotland just as hockey is to Canada and "Hollywood films" are to the USA.

 

[steveg700]

Is it not culture though? I think most people against this probably hate sports or hockey in general.

Well, suit yourself, but that's a broad generalization, and as such, don't think it'll really hold up to scrutiny.

My city never even really cared about hockey when I was a kid. But now the sport has spread South. That is your cultural influence taking hold in the States. That is culture. Is that any different from our films spreading North to your country?

It's different in terms of orders of magnitude. Film has quite truly changed the world. Even in the realm of sports, hockey occupies a niche. It'd more analogous if America's unique was something like professional wrestling or NASCAR. YEE-HAW! Wouldn't that thar be somethin'? Li'l Rick Flair doin' a Figger 4! Or li'l race cars drivin' round in circles. VROOM VROOM!

And it's different in that the film studio is innocuous. It's not a ticky-tacky site gag.

 

[UWHabs]

Right, so film studios actually represent something potent and compelling in terms of cultural dominance, and they fit innocuously into the theater district instead of a broadcast center. Hockey rinks are more just cute and act as something a lolz-inducing site gag. The thing about cutesay gags is that they appeal to a very fickle aspect of human nature.

Every time someone starts a discussion as to why obscure, unaccomplished leaders are selected for an established civ, or when some footnote city-state or stuck-in-the-stone-age tribal culture makes the new civ list, no shortage of folks show up to laud how great it is to be given an occasion to learn something new about an aspect of world history instead of just grabbing the low-hanging fruit. Where did they get to?

That's where part of the problem comes in. If Canada's UI was simply a hockey arena that replaced the regular arena in an entertainment district, it would just be a suitable UB. But because it's this massive thing you place on the terrain, it definitely gets a little over the top.

It would be like if America's Film Studio was you putting up the Hollywood sign on a hill next to your city. I have a feeling people might complain a little bit about that...

 

[steveg700]

That's where part of the problem comes in. If Canada's UI was simply a hockey arena that replaced the regular arena in an entertainment district, it would just be a suitable UB. But because it's this massive thing you place on the terrain, it definitely gets a little over the top.

It would be like if America's Film Studio was you putting up the Hollywood sign on a hill next to your city. I have a feeling people might complain a little bit about that...

They outright said in the Canada livestream that they could have simply had the rink be a stadium replacement, but they were going for a site gag (well, they have been a little more euphemistic).

Save Hollywood for a wonder that gets built on a hill adjacent to an entertainment center, or somesuch.

 

[UncivilizedGuy]

I suppose we could have given Canada half-price railroads to represent the cheap Chinese labor we imported and exploited, but that wouldn't be very PC now, would it?.

The US is just as guilty for this too. The best place to indulge in Chinese American history is in San Francisco. Chinatown is like a time machine. It’s a must visit for any history buffs traveling there.

 

[NukingGandhi]

Not to mention the cheap Irish labor on the transcontinental railroad in the US.