What do all of the civ insignias mean?

[The_J]

I'd not really go with either.
Maybe I'd say that both look similar, but they're not really close to being meaningful.

The Elephant was a popular symbol of Carthaginian coins (next to the Palm tree, it appears as the second most common motif). It also was the symbol used on coins issued by the Barcids (Hamilcar and Hannibal Barca) in Spain.

Link maybe ?

Also, the coat of Arms of Austria:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Austria

[...]

Look familiar?

Guessed something like that, thanks .

 

[Gucumatz]

Okay, forgot it, as usual.

So, old text:


New text:


Not great, I know.
Looked a bit around in the net, but nothing definite is said anywhere, besides other interpretations that it could be a cherry blossom, which would indeed make some sense.


-----------
So, G&K, from Arioch's site:
: That should not be difficult, since an eagle in the coat of arms is already mentioned for russia, and the basic meaning is probably the same.

: Seems to be a version of this.

: Carthage, Elephant, obvious. Google search for carthage + "elephant symbol" leads to CFC, so there's probably no other meaning.

: Some sort of celtic knot (#1, #2), but it seems that they don't have a special meaning .

: Lion Of Judah, current flag (wikipedia)

: ???

: ???; like previously discussed, it looks more aztec

: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic_Lion

: Swedish national emblem, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Crowns

Any disagreement about the interpreations before I try to write anything together ?
And other ideas for Maya and the Huns?

We had a whole discussion on the Maya symbol in some other thread but forget where it is atm. At the moment we think its a simple disambiguation of Tonatiuh once again.

 

[The_J]

I've been part of that other discussion .
The problem is still that Tonatiuh is an Aztec god, not a Mayan god.
And they would not do that...or would they?

 

[Gucumatz]

I've been part of that other discussion .
The problem is still that Tonatiuh is an Aztec god, not a Mayan god.
And they would not do that...or would they?

Yep it really is a mystery... but then again laziness hasn't stopped them before. And ah forgot you were in that discussion as well, my bad.

 

[Gucumatz]

My only other guess would be Chaac, but the figure still looks a bit weird.

 

[The_J]

And ah forgot you were in that discussion as well, my bad.

No reason to apologize. There's no need to remember that stuff . Just wanted to say that, so that we have to explain less.

Yep it really is a mystery... but then again laziness hasn't stopped them before.

At which point?
(besides stock images)

My only other guess would be Chaac, but the figure still looks a bit weird.

I think that was already mentioned before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaac this guy, right?
Most images don't really fit, but this here could maybe...but only maybe.

Just googled again, on this page is nothing which looks like the symbol, only relatively distinct ones in the first batch. Same for this book chapter (after scrolling throug it...we might need a thread "write your name in Mayan glyphs ).

...Oh, funny. Spotted a similar symbol on google, and what was it about? Wrong usage of an Aztec symbol for a Mayan symbol (link).

mmhh...

 

[cuc]

This flag shows the mon of the Oda Clan. A mon is the japanese version of a coat of arms or family emblem, and usage of such symbols dates back til the 12th century. The meaning of the Oda mon is not very clear. It's claimed that it might represent some sort of flower, a parted cucumber, or a bird's nest with eggs, but these interpretations are doubtful.

It's the central part of the mon, not the whole thing. The distinction is still important.

I think you don't need to go into karahana; just call it "the flower-shaped motif in the central of the Oda kamon", put a picture of the whole mon beside it, and describe the mon as something like "generally thought to represent a flowering quince, though there are other theories", and link to the article.

EDIT:
Regarding the Hun symbol, you do realize that its sunrays are curved, so it doesn't have reflection symmetry like the Turkish seal, only rotational symmetry, right?

Hmm... I know only one icon that has curved sunrays: the "sun in splendor".

EDIT2:

Wait. The Wikipedia "sun in splendor" article leads to "solar symbol". It says:

...while [the sun] on the flag of Kyrgyzstan has only curvy rays

So this is it: the Hun symbol is definitely related to the flag of Kyrgyzstan, although the Kyrgyzstan flag has 40 rays, signifying 40 tribes united by the legendary hero Manas.

EDIT3:
So far the only other source I find is this site for Kyrgyz Shyrdak rugs.

Note that the Kazakhstan flag also has a sun symbol in the centre, yet it has straight rays. Maybe the curvy ray sun symbol is only popular in Kyrgyzstan?

 

[The_J]

At least Kyrgyzstan is a central asian country, but that's already all the possible connection to the Huns :/.

@ text:

This flag shows the mon of the Oda Clan. A mon (or kamon) is the japanese version of a coat of arms or family emblem, and usage of such symbols dates back til the 12th century. The meaning of the Oda mon is not very clear. The flower-shaped motif in the center of the Oda mon might represent a flowering quince, though there are other theories about it.

cheap C&P . Okay, I guess?

 

[Liex]

Regarding the Hun symbol, you do realize that its sunrays are curved, so it doesn't have reflection symmetry like the Turkish seal, only rotational symmetry, right?

Ah, back then those tiny and low-res rays didn't look curved

But I think you're right about the Kyrgyzstan flag. It has a lot of additional rays, but we could see the Hun symbol as a convenient simplification of it (since a small 40-ray symbol would not look nice).

Directly it has nothing to do with the Huns, but in a broader sense the sun seems to be a very important symbol through the central Asian Turkish-related cultures (and to every other culture in the world, but still). That Turkish site states that (bad translation incoming) "The period of the Huns and Göktürks sun is usually considered as a sign of bravery and sovereignty and the moon is more important." And near the end: "As indicated above, the sun, the stars and the moon was regarded as holy by the Turks since ancient times, the state-nation tümlüğünü thought of independence, flags, which represent the nation and are used as symbols of state sovereignty." This whole thing may be just national propaganda, but it helps to explain why they did choose that sun as the Hunnic icon.

 

[cuc]

This flag shows the mon of the Oda Clan. A mon (or kamon) is the japanese version of a coat of arms or family emblem, and usage of such symbols dates back til the 12th century. The meaning of the Oda mon is not very clear. The flower-shaped motif in the center of the Oda mon might represent a flowering quince, though there are other theories about it.

You've got it backwards Only the whole symbol is a flowering quince; the flower motif inside is merely a karahana.

As proof, in the kamon examples I saw, some follow the the exact same design, but have differences such as 4 petals (both the inside and the outside), and those are also called "flowering quince", while nothing else is called that.

But I think you're right about the Kyrgyzstan flag. It has a lot of additional rays, but we could see the Hun symbol as a convenient simplification of it (since a small 40-ray symbol would not look nice).

Actually the Krygyzstan flag consists of two symbols, the sun and the yurt dome top window in the centre. Firaxis only took the sun from it.

Apparently, the yurt dome top window ("shanyrak" in Kazakh, "tunduk" in Kyrgyz) is an extremely important symbol for nation and family in Kazakh and Kyrgyz culture, that''s why it appears in the centre of both the Kyrgyzstan flag and the Kazakhstan emblem.

To see what it looks like in real life, just do a google image search of "shanyrak".

 

[The_J]

Let's see if I can make even more errors in just a few sentences .
No, seriously, another try:

This flag shows the mon of the Oda Clan. A mon (or kamon) is the japanese version of a coat of arms or family emblem, and usage of such symbols dates back til the 12th century. The meaning of the Oda mon is not very clear. It might represent a flowering quince (the inner part is normally a natural object, obviously a flower here), though there are other theories about it.

Now better ?

 

[cuc]

I simplified it a bit more.

This flag is part of the Oda Clan's mon. A mon (or kamon) is the Japanese version of a coat of arms or family emblem, and usage of such symbols dates back to the 12th century. The meaning of the Oda kamon is not very clear. It might represent a flowering quince, though there are other theories about it.

 

[Gucumatz]

Well one of the reasons why I think it could be Chaac is that in some of his statues you see him stretching out his tongue and with an accenuated nose:

http://www.planetarioalfa.org.mx/img/jardin/mascaron-de-chaac.png

 

[The_J]

mmhh...sounds somehow reasonable (not perfect though).
I guess we can accept that for now .

I simplified it a bit more.

Thanks . Replaced it now in the overview.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Link maybe ?

Book, sadly (Carthage Must Be Destroyed by Richard Miles). I'll take a look and figure out what pages this is discussed, though, and I can see if the googlebook version has those pages. I won't get to it for a little while, though.

 

[Khagan1]

Actually the Krygyzstan flag consists of two symbols, the sun and the yurt dome top window in the centre. Firaxis only took the sun from it.

Apparently, the yurt dome top window ("shanyrak" in Kazakh, "tunduk" in Kyrgyz) is an extremely important symbol for nation and family in Kazakh and Kyrgyz culture, that''s why it appears in the centre of both the Kyrgyzstan flag and the Kazakhstan emblem.

To see what it looks like in real life, just do a google image search of "shanyrak".

In all steppe cultures of Turan, the top part of the Yurt is interrelated to the cosmology as well as other parts of it. Design and architecture of Yurt has some very interesting resemblance to the mythology. Yurt is always considered as the center of spatial dimension, certain territory, not geographically but in the sense of mythology. It is also culturally significant to the Fin-Ugor nomads (Lap, Saam etc.), Siberian-Tundra nomads and even to the Native American tribes as well as Kazak and Kyrgyz.

Sky cult is the core of the Ural-Altaic mythology. Every celestial element has its own part in it, I can't say sun is more important than moon. It really varies from tribe to tribe. If developers take their reference from Kyrgyz flag or any stylized sun image, I think they choose the right way. At least it is culturally relevant.

 

[Cicero63]

The Austrian symbol does not only represent the coat of arms, but the Hapsburg eagle. It really seems to me that they are really toning in on the Hapsburg's for Austria- their symbol, leader, and unique ability.

 

[The_J]

So, since I have to begin somewhere:

Austria
The austrian flag is another instance, where the current coats of arms of a nation has been turned into a civilization symbol (Coats of arms of Austria). The symbol has been used since Austria's independence in 1919 (with a break during the annexation through the nazis), and the eagle itself already symbolizes the independence.
It's derived from the Habsburgian symbol, a double headed eagle, and is interpreted as being only the half of this empire (without hungary, the second head). The Habsburgian symbol again is itself derived from the German imperial eagle, which is itself a variation of the roman eagle.

Byzantium
This flag shows the partriachal cross, a variation of the christian cross. It is a reference to the Byzantine state religion, but the exact meaning of itself, as well as of the parts like the different crossings are not clear. It has been used in the Byzantine empire and it's origin is probably somewhere in the influence sphere of Byzantium (either Slovakia, Hungary of Moravia). One of the later modifications of this symbol, the orthodox cross, which is used in orthodox churches, is also called "Byzantine Cross".

Carthage
The connection between the elephant symbol and Carthage is clear: It is an obvious reference to Hannibal Barca, who crossed the Alps with his war elephants, which gave him big advantages in the next years in fighting the romans on their own territory.
This fact is so famous that the Carthagians printed the elephants on their own coins. These coins are today an interesting source for biologists to determine what properties the now extinct north african forest elephants (one of the UUs in Civ5) had.

Celts
The symbol on the celtic flag is a shield knot, a modification of the celtic knot. This type of symbol is widely known (also because it's not totally specific for the celts, it's a more universal sign in different cultures), but sadly its exact meaning isn't. It is believed that it represents a spiritual sign for protection against demons and ghosts. This interpreation fits to the celtic UA in Civilization 5, which gives them a religious bonus.

Ethiopia
The Ethiopian flag shows the Lion of Judah. It is an old symbol of the Israelite tribe of Judah, from which the legends say the Ethiopians are descendants from. The lion is also a symbol for Jesus, so it is not only a jewish, but also a christian symbol, which makes it more fitting for the oldest christian empire in Africa.
In the Rastafari movement it also represents emperor Haile Selassie I (who is the Ethiopian leader in Civ5), due to the fact that they believe that he is the second coming of Jesus.

The Huns
The meaning of the Hunnic flag is at the moment totally unclear. It might represent the sun (obviously), but no bigger associations could be drawn.
The closest currently used symbol is the sun on the Flag of Kyrgyzstan, but the only connection between this land and the Huns are that both are from central asia.

The Mayas
This flag shows probably the Mayan god Chaac. It is the god of rain, and therefore in general associated with agriculture, growth and fertility, but does not have other, greater associations. The symbol is also not very well choosen, because most Mayan symbols show people/faces in the profile (Overview) and not in the front view, which is rather common in the Aztec culture, e.g. for the Aztec god of the sun, Tonatiuh.

The Netherlands
The lion is a very general symbol in heraldry, and represents values like strength and valour, or any other traits which are suitable for a king.
During the formation of the Netherlands, the lion was used for several of the states in this area, and is still used today, in form of the Dutch Republic Lion, which is also a part of their Coats of Arms. The lion holds in one hand some arrows, which represent the provinces in the Netherlands, and a sword, which is a symbol for their willingness to fight for freedom.

Sweden
This flag shows the Three Crowns, the current swedish national emblem, which is again featured in the Swedish Coats of Arms. The symbol is relatively popular in Sweden and widely used, e.g. for their embassies or the Swedish ice hockey team.
The meaning of the three crowns is not known, but it is speculated that they might somehow represent the connections between the scandinavian countries, especially when they were ruled together, like Denmark, Sweden and Norway under the Kalmar Union. Therefore this symbol is not exclusively used in Sweden, but also in Denmark, e.g. in their Coats of Arms.

Suggestions for improvements?


Edit: Notes for differences to Civ4:

Same:
Austria: N/A (unless you consider the HRE, which used the mentioned Habsburgian eagle)
Celts: -> same.
Netherlands: -> same.


Different:
Byzantium: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarum
Carthage: ...what's that, an Ankh? Edit: Apparently it is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith#Syncretic_relationships
Ethiopia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ethiopia
Mayans: Snakes...feathered snake, Queztalcoatl, Mayan god. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl Edit: Crap, aztec god, but has a Mayan equivalent.

Other:
Huns: N/A
Sweden: N/A (comparing them to the Vikings is quite too far off)

 

[The_J]

Snipets are now all ready.
Since the interpretation of the Hunnic flag is still not really existent, I decided to dig around a bit more.
But sadly all upcoming sources are a bit doubtful (#1, #2, #3, #4).
Short version: The huns were followers of Tengriism, and the sun is a god, and son of Tengri. That offers a connection (plus the general interpretations for the sun, which are sure numerous in the context of religion).
EDIT: The wikipedia article about Tengri click is probably the best source.

Does this sound good in general?

 

[Flying Mathias]

Could the Mayan Symbol represent a burial mask? Pacal's isn't very similar, but perhaps we've found a burial mask similar too it?