What do you think about Arabian "Last Prophet" ability?

[isau]

Multiple answers to this question.

From the perspective of other civs in the game, is Arabia going to be annoying to have around? Heck yes. Because Arabia automatically, globally decreases the number of available religion slots by 1. In an 8 player game, right out the gate Arabia reduces the number of possible players who can chase the Religious Victory condition. And there is literally no way to stop Arabia from pursuing religious victory.

Is the power itself that powerful? Well yes. It's only not powerful if you don't play to its strengths. Founding a religion in Civ VI is very different than V. In V you need Great People points, and that is a race that is very heavily stacked in favor of some players over others. Getting a religion just because you started on desert is gone. You have to be active about chasing it, navigating the policy tree to get there. While Arabia can chase entirely different policies/techs and still get its religion. Arabia, for example, can chase military techs to start, or even naval techs, and not sacrifice any of its religious capability.

Also one thing I noticed from the screenshot of Arabia picking its religious buildings is that all the building choices are there. I wonder if that means Arabia can pick stuff other people already picked, or if the screenshot is just wrong, or if something else is going on. In the community balance patch, Theodora has the ability to pick abilities other civs have picked. Would be very fitting (not to mention powerful and appropriate) if Saladin can too.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Here's a list of the Worship Beliefs in Civ 6:

Cathedral: +4 Faith, 1 slot for religious art
Gurdwara: +3 Faith; +2 Food
Meeting House: +3 Faith; +2 Production
Mosque: +3 Faith; Missionaries and Apostles +1 Spread Religion charge
Pagoda: +3 Faith; +1 Housing
Synagogue: +5 Faith
Wat: +3 Faith; +2 Science

Do any of these really look bad?

Mosques, Synagogues, and Wats all play to Arabia's strengths.

Gurdwaras, Pagodas, and Meeting Houses help with growth and production, the cornerstones of city infrastructure in any Civ game.

So worst case scenario, you get stuck with Cathedrals, which, if nothing else, will provide you with a solid defense against someone trying to sneak in a culture victory behind your back.

 

[Ebrim]

Go away with this "good beliefs" nonsense. At this point the only reasonable position is that all beliefs are good for some purpose. It's going to require actually getting hours into the game before we can start pretending that some are inherently "better" than others.

Saladin gets a guaranteed religion and a lot of synergy bonuses from religion. It's hard to argue that's not useful.

 

[God of Kings]

Even Cathedrals from Arabia's religion would be powerful, even without any religious art, thanks to the half faith cost.

 

[Acken]

Hmmm I'm not convinced by it. It relies on someone getting the before last religion quick enough to start getting something from the UA which can be a problem in both low difficulties and multiplayer.
Compared to civs getting immediate bonuses... meh.

But it looks at least playable. Contrary to Civ5 Byzantium that was getting nothing if you didn't manage to found.

 

[Thormodr]

It's fine as it's thematic for Arabia. Unlike some other things.

 

[Red Pearl]

Go away with this "good beliefs" nonsense. At this point the only reasonable position is that all beliefs are good for some purpose. It's going to require actually getting hours into the game before we can start pretending that some are inherently "better" than others.

Saladin gets a guaranteed religion and a lot of synergy bonuses from religion. It's hard to argue that's not useful.

Defender of the Faith and Crusade are by far the best beliefs if they haven't been nerfed.

 

[isau]

If you look at the screen in the video where the Saladin player picks a building for his religion, all of the building choices are active. So either this is a goof, I don't understand what the screen is supposed to look like, or Saladin can pick buildings (and other religious powers too?) without restrictions.

Spoiler :

EDIT: Looking closer at the screen, it could just be a goof. The text in top right says All Religions: 1 / 4. Which I assume is either a bug in the build when the video was taken, or they just used cheat codes to spawn a prophet without actually spawning him after the other religions were founded.

 

[Gintoki89]

If you look at the screen in the video where the Saladin player picks a building for his religion, all of the building choices are active. So either this is a goof, I don't understand what the screen is supposed to look like, or Saladin can pick buildings (and other religious powers too?) without restrictions.

Spoiler :

If you look at your screenshot, it says near the top right "All Religions 1/4" and lists "My Religion" off to the left, presumably as the 1/4. So the screenshot was used from a game where Saladin just got the first Great Prophet presumably.

 

[isau]

If you look at your screenshot, it says near the top right "All Religions 1/4" and lists "My Religion" off to the left, presumably as the 1/4. So the screenshot was used from a game where Saladin just got the first Great Prophet presumably.

Right, I noticed that right after I posted. Just a goof in the video possibly. Or possibly Saladin really can pick buildings without restrictions and they just didn't say it. It would make sense if he could, given what his ability is.

 

[Gintoki89]

I don't think it's a goof - it's not from a part of the video talking about the Last Prophet ability, and it's footage from a different game, so I'd just assume that in that game, through normal gameplay, they got the first Great Prophet, no reason to think it's anything more than that.

 

[isau]

I don't think it's a goof - it's not from a part of the video talking about the Last Prophet ability, and it's footage from a different game, so I'd just assume that in that game, through normal gameplay, they got the first Great Prophet, no reason to think it's anything more than that.

Good point. Still a little weird to juxtapose the building selection that way when the whole point of the civ is not to be first to found a religion. But maybe the video shot was taken before all the powers were finalized, or they changed during development. Or they just weren't thinking about how it would look.

 

[UnknownHuman]

I still hope Arabia gets an apostle if it already had a prophet, it would be incredibly awkward for a civilization unique ability to be denied by the player only because he/she wanted to have an earlier prophet to choose the beliefs he/she wants.
I don’t mind if it would have been a leader unique ability, as they will be eventually replaced by another less gimmicky leader, but a civilization unique ability is the backbone, so I’m still not sure if it’s just a gimmick free prophet without much choice or if it’s something really interesting to play with.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

A very useful thing. You know you will get a religion so you can delay astrology and holy sites for a long while and instead focus on other stuff such as building campuses and theater districts. Other civs may have to decide rather early if they wan't a religion but as arabia you know you can get a religion.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I still hope Arabia gets an apostle if it already had a prophet, it would be incredibly awkward for a civilization unique ability to be denied by the player only because he/she wanted to have an earlier prophet to choose the beliefs he/she wants.

I don't see a problem here. The ability gives guarantee. It's totally ok for it to not give anything if you discover the religion yourself.

 

[Vincent55]

If I'm not competing for a great prophet, I'm free to compete for the other great people available instead.

Needless to say if I play Arabia I'll always use that ability and let religion come at me for free. It's basically a free great person.

Beside, if you want to win a religious victory, half price on the religious building should help you catch up and we've seen that some non-prophet great person have bonuses helpful to faith so gunning for them instead of a prophet could pay off long term.

But ironically, I'm not even sure I'd want to go faith victory when playing Arabia. My intuition tells me it's better to go for science instead, using high faith output to rush more great scientists and make sure Spain or India doesn't win a faith victory in the mean time.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Needless to say if I play Arabia I'll always use that ability and let religion come at me for free. It's basically a free great person.

Except there could be a case where not enough civilizations are targeting religion at all.
Playing as Arabia I'd probably target Astrology as my second-third priority and build a Holy Site. If I get free Great Prophet, I'll use the Holy Site to produce religion. If not - the GP point from Holy Site will eventually produce one.

 

[JuhQman]

One big difference between Civ V (G&K / BNW) and Civ VI is that Great Prophets come from Great Prophet points as opposed to Civ V faith.
And so in Civ VI, Arabia can stockpile faith while still taking advantage of Last Prophet. They then instantly spawn a few apostles to max out their religion.

This. It's a very role playing strategy to save tons of faith and then get the religion done as soon as it's founded, plus hopefully still have enough faith to spam missionaries/apostles to start converting your neighbours. And with the crazy faith you're getting as Arabia, next to cheaper buildings for other players cities following your religion, spreading your religion should be very close to how quickly Islam spread in the real world, way back when.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I still hope Arabia gets an apostle if it already had a prophet, it would be incredibly awkward for a civilization unique ability to be denied by the player only because he/she wanted to have an earlier prophet to choose the beliefs he/she wants.
I don’t mind if it would have been a leader unique ability, as they will be eventually replaced by another less gimmicky leader, but a civilization unique ability is the backbone, so I’m still not sure if it’s just a gimmick free prophet without much choice or if it’s something really interesting to play with.

I also think there should be a compensation when you are not the last one to found a religion. Adjusting your idea a bit, I was thinking of a lumpsum of faith for every religion found after Arabia, so that Arabia can acquire an apostle after like 2 or 3 religions found after him. So that Arabia has a motivation to found a religion early if they want to.

 

[Siptah]

I also think there should be a compensation when you are not the last one to found a religion. Adjusting your idea a bit, I was thinking of a lumpsum of faith for every religion found after Arabia, so that Arabia can acquire an apostle after like 2 or 3 religions found after him. So that Arabia has a motivation to found a religion early if they want to.

In that case there should also be a compensation for Greece if you leave the wild card slot empty. Maybe a lump sum of gold for every era you did not use it in. Could be a motivation not to use its UA.