What does Civ2 need? Are future patches still possible?

Originally posted by ElephantU
It would take a release of the original source code, a forum for agreeing on necessary modifications and appropriate source algorithms, and a group of people willing to wade into the gritty detail. The first is probably the biggest hindrance.

I doubt it would be legal to reverse-engineer the compiled code, as it is still being sold in retail stores so someone still has "fiduciary interest" in it.

I wish they would release the source code. Considering the vast amount of interest that still exists for C2 (over C3), I'd bet there would be a LOT of people volunteering to modify it and re-release it. A stopgap measure would be telling people how they can edit their own .exe to make the game more challengin (beyond rules.txt edits). The stumbling block there, however, is financial -- the companies that produce games want people to buy the next version, not keep playing the old one.
 
Yoshi, I think your comments are not in vain. I assume that game developers read forums like this and respond accordingly. I had the same feelings about C3 that you obviously did. I just didn't like it. I like C2's visual simplicity, etc. Why they had to change the game AND the interface so much from C2 to C3 is confounding.

For now, I set all AI civs to rational/expansionist/militaristic (-1, 0, -1), don't allow some city improvements to keep the AI from building improvements while I'm invading, and don't allow certain units (e.g., Bombers and Marines) just to make the AI more of a challenge (I'm talking at Deity level, which is all I play).
 
I assume that game developers read forums like this and respond accordingly.
That's what was initially said about the development of Civ3. Look what happened. I would add that they respond to some of players' imput. It should also be noted that all software in now going in that direction (i.e. overwhelming requirements). Why? Because developers want to give those with high-end systems a great show and to hell with the rest? No. The software industry works very closely with the hardware industry and lets face it, money's what counts. The idea that (some) designers want to do their best to come out with a new gaming experience is only half-true. They will give you that but only within the parameters set by the industry (i.e. what sells and what keeps the industry moving economically).
So, Civ3 is what it is because to do otherwise would be to go against the trends set by the industry. If Civ4 comes out, the same thing will happen. Absurdly high requirment are not a mistake. I know of people who spend thousands anually on hardware for games!
What the industry REALLY wants to stay away from is player-created games (i.e. generic engines that can be editied to meet the needs of the player --the equivilant of getting the raw, bare bones of Civ2 and using an 'editor' to create your own stuff). Releasing Civ2's source code would almost be the eqivilant. The only thing in our favor is the fact that it's an old game and unprofitable.

To keep with thread's main theme: one thing that isn't mentioned much in Scenario-design forums is the fact that the AI ignores the effects of certain unit flags.
For example, AI units see units with the 'Submarine advantages/disadvantages' flag whether or not they have the 'Unit can spot submarines' flag. This means that your submarines are virtually useless against the AI. The same thing applies to the 'Invisible' flag in ToT. The AI also ignores the 'Can see units two spaces away' flag (at least where sea units are concerned). These are not superficial glitches.

Address stuff like this and you've got a near-perfect game. It seems to me that the only limitations in Civ2 are the limitations placed (intentionally or unintentionally) by its designers.

A couple of additions that I would like to see that shouldn't be to big a nut to crack are EDIT actions in macro.

Example:

EDITCITY
city=
rename=
size=
owner=

EDITUNIT
unittype=
rename=
owner=
[movement=]
[fuel=]
[attack=]
[defence=]
[hitpoints=]
[firepower=]
[cost=]
[hold=]
[flags=]

Game saves changed information in Rules.bak (?). Changing city owner removes all units from city. changing unit owner causes all units of that type to change ownership.

Having scripts that can place stuff would be a major boost in terms of scenarios.

For example:

BUILDTILEIMPROVEMENT

BUILDCITY

The latter action automatically creates a city at the specified coordinates.

The other thing that for some reason was never added to the macro language was diplomacy triggers. This has applications to both scenarios and the vanilla game.

Example:

PEACEMADE
AGGRESSIONMADE
ALLIANCEMADE

Additional diplomacy actions along the lines of MAKEAGGRESSION would make for scenarios that were more diplomatically complex.

Example:

MAKEPEACE
MAKEALLIANCE

I could go on like this foreverbut you probably get the idea. Notice that the above examples keep with the format of the already-existing macro. Technically, whatever can be done using the cheat menu can have an associated event action (a REVOLUTION trigger would have hundreds of applications).



P.S. Slowthinker, I briefly checked out C-evo. I see what you mean about the AI, but it's still better than having hard-coded AI advantages.
Clearly this sort of thing is possible but very time-consuming. A a large group effort as mentioned by ElephantU would probably be more fruitful. People want a better Civ2, not a different game and there are still a lot of Civ2 players out there who wouldn't mind having their favorite game play better.
 
Originally posted by yoshi
For example, AI units see units with the 'Submarine advantages/disadvantages' flag whether or not they have the 'Unit can spot submarines' flag. This means that your submarines are virtually useless against the AI. The same thing applies to the 'Invisible' flag in ToT. The AI also ignores the 'Can see units two spaces away' flag (at least where sea units are concerned).
The AI sees all units, also stacked units (and probably units in cities). I ran a test and found out the AI cares very well about the strongest defender hidden in the stack. It attacks weak defenders only.
 
It's possible that the AI is set to act when one of its units comes into contact with yours. In other words, although it may be able to "see" everything, it only reacts to units that are adjacent. I've experimented with this in the past. If you place an AI unit next to an enemy unit, the AI will send its units towards the enemy unit's position but not before. The AI will frequently bypass units that are not adjacent.
Basically, it sees all but its decision process is not necessarily based on what it sees.
 
Originally posted by yoshi
it only reacts to units that are adjacent.
I agree. I didn't express my thoughts clearly. I think it 'sees' (I mean it includes seen elements in its decision process) only units in the visible distance (usually adjacent squares). But if there are stacked units in a visible distance, it sees not only the top unit (as do a human player), but also units below it.
 
SlowThinker, I went over your links. Most of the posts concern MODing (i.e. messing with values in Rules.txt).

What got me onto this topic was ToT --the biggest changes are in Rules.txt which include new unit abilities, additions to 'Cosmic Principles,' more unit slots, available techs and some other stuff.

Also, based on the fact that the Civ2 program has been altered (see FreeCiv, C-evo), I think it is reasonable to suggest a patch, if only the Rules.txt is affected (also including the necessary fixes of course).

Really, all that is needed is to 'de-hardcode' aspects of the game rules.
An example would be to add some new fields to @UNITS like, 'Food' which means that the value determines the number of food consumed by the unit per turn. In effect, de-hardcoding the consumption of food unique to units with the Settler role. The government food consumption modifier would remain the same (i.e. +/- 1 food). Or just add a flag. 'Consumes food.'
In other words, this means assigning an alterable value in Rules.txt to previously hard-coded effects.

This is really a job for players.
For instance, I tried lobbying for individual unit maintenance costs for Civ3 (i.e. you set the number of gold used per turn to maintain the particular unit type). Not a chance. Some players even rejected the idea --even if the deault was set to 1 for all units!

The idea here is not necessarily to add new stuff to Civ2 --although Bombardment woudl breath new life into the oh so basic Civ2 combat system.

Were this to be done Civ2 would truely become a MODder's dream.
 
Originally posted by yoshi
It's possible that the AI is set to act when one of its units comes into contact with yours. In other words, although it may be able to "see" everything, it only reacts to units that are adjacent. I've experimented with this in the past. If you place an AI unit next to an enemy unit, the AI will send its units towards the enemy unit's position but not before. The AI will frequently bypass units that are not adjacent.
Basically, it sees all but its decision process is not necessarily based on what it sees.

I think there are elements of seeing the whole map in their decision process: how else do you explain these AI actions (see map pix just above thread end):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=895498#post895498
 
Why the French AI sends those three Chariots north, I don't know (the AI tends to like "exploring" the map a lot).
But the fact that they go straight for the Zulu city means that the AI ignores the 'Unexplored' tile effect, thus it sees newly founded cities just like the human player does (cities are nameless though).

I think the reason why the AI is programmed to continuously explore is so as to increase the chances that it will come into contact with enemy units in the area (that's assuming that the AI only attacks units within the visual range of its units or adjacent units).

Altering AI characteristics is something that should also be looked into. C-evo makes this possibel by separating the AI code into a text file named 'AI.' This means that players can alter the AI to their own preference --the problem is that only players with significant programming experience are able to mess with this feature.
If AI MODding were to be included into a Civ2 patch it would probably take the form of values in @CONCEPTS (Cosmic Principles) in Rules.txt. Something relatively simple. Ideally, the Civ2 Editor could be worked on to incorperate such additions so as to make the process as fluid as possible for any player.

Aside from needed fixes and necessary (IMO) additions, a new patch should be directed towards scenario design more than towards an improved vanilla game --since Civ3 will inevitably be superior in the latter (minus turn length of course ;) ).
(Although a vanilla game with just the some of the fixes mentioned previous would make for an extra sweet game of Civ2.)
With that in mind, AI MODding is something that should not be overlooked. (Persoanlly, I would love to be able to determine how much time the AI spends 'eploring' and how it uses the different unit roles as well as the general logic it uses to carry out combat --would take Civ2 scenario design to a whole new level.)

And even if AI MODding is very limited, players could more than make up for with improvements to the macro language (e.g. MOVEUNIT can be set to ignore enemy units, event-defined production items, etc.).

Note: I opened this thread not just to clarify what Civ2 could use but also to provide anyone who should undertake the task of designing a patch with a better idea of what players would really like to see. Since Civ2's strong point is in scenario design (and a fast-paced vanilla game I guess), it seems logical to me that more flexibility and options in this area would be the best way to go.
The idea is to get as many people playing and MODding Civ2 as possibel while giving hard-core scenarios designers more toys to play with.

No other game can do this at present --not even Civ3-- so this idea of a patch is not a waste of time.
 
Originally posted by yoshi
Why the French AI sends those three Chariots north, I don't know (the AI tends to like "exploring" the map a lot).

Due north was the White AI civ...


But the fact that they go straight for the Zulu city means that the AI ignores the 'Unexplored' tile effect, thus it sees newly founded cities just like the human player does (cities are nameless though).

Not sure what you mean, but it looked to me like the French send several chariots straight for the Zulu city, took it, then headed straight for the White civ. Note that they are on the same continent - perhaps there is a "kill other civs on my continent early" algorithm that uses "black" map info?
 
Cool. I poked around. How do I change to Deity+5 or whatever?

Originally posted by SlowThinker
Maybe, but the main thing is the width of AI's food box and shield box (and maybe science box too): it is 2 only, so a warrior costs 2 shields for example.
 
Originally posted by ElephantU
Note that they are on the same continent - perhaps there is a "kill other civs on my continent early" algorithm that uses "black" map info?
POssibly but AI behaviour is so erratic that such an algorithm implies that the AI uses 'seek and destroy' tactics backed by omniscient nature (ala FPS games). This seems unlikely since the AI will frequently have a prime taget well within range (sometimes 2 squares) and not go for it. I think it is something more like what I was saying before: AI can set its units to go to enemy city coordinates no matter what but where enemy units are concerned, the AI only reacts to those that are adjacent (or within visual range?).
So, keeping with the example you gave, the AI set its unit to go towards the green and white cities but not necessarily their units. It seems to me that designers set the AI to send out its units to various coordinates (not sure what the logic behind coordinate selection would be --generally speacking, if you look at the AI's explored map you will notice that its unit movement pattern is quite chaotic) in order to increase the chances of bumping into an enemy unit. If the owner of the enemy unit is at peace (in programming terms, all other players are catagorized as 'enemy' whether they are at peace or not), the AI will not attack and if not it's time to get ready to rumble! The reason why designers would do this would seem to be so as to make the AI a little less god-like --otherwise the AI would simply send its units after any enemy units on the map regardless of distance, which it does not do (as I said before, it seems to only be set to react to units that are adjacent or that were adjacent prior to destruction of the AI's unit).
In short, the AI does not send its units to the coordinates of an enemy unit that isn't adjacent to on of it's units (that it can't 'see'). The AI does seem to be able to send its units to coordinates of an enemy city that it can't see (even when the city square is unexplored).


BTW, the term used for a released source code is 'open source software.' The idea is that you do not pay for a copy of something but rather the services that the developer provides.

In the case of Civ2, it can be said that even if the source code were released, players would still buy the disk because few people are willing to spend all that time downloading a game of the net and it always nicer to have the thing in its original format --not to mention that you help to pay Civ2's designers and programmers who essentially do the dirty work of developing the game's engine (game software is the most time-consuming and difficult form of software to create). So, you buy the game (so the company's happy), then you make whatever changes you like --or download the changes (a patch) made by someone else. Of course, this means that you could potentially have thousands of different Civ2 patches floating around the web. But, since its open source there's nothing to stop you from collecting up all of them and incorperating the best aspects of each into you own patch. It is my belief that this could give way to a revolution in gaming (strategy at least).

The problem is that companies developing new software would have to try a harder to make a truely different product --people won't buy a piece of software if they can create a similar piece of software themselves using alreadyexisting software. For example, players won't buy Civ3 that is limited to what Firaxis/Atari want to include when they can just endlessly MOD Civ2 to meet their preferences --thus Firaxis/Atari would have to try much harder to produce a Civ3 that simply could not be matched by the Civ2 program no matter how much player MODding is invloved.

Most companies would (and do) object to this kind of free and open software trading and back up their dislike of it by entrenching themselves in licencing agreements.

So, I'm curious. What do civfanatics think? Should the Civ2 source code be released (also taking into aco**** what I have said above)?

I think I will open a new thread on just that topic and include a poll in order to better gauge what the possibilities are.
(Some civfanatics have brought up the issue that fewer and fewer people are posting in the Civ2 CFC forum so this should spark a healthy debate that has Civ2 smeared all over it. :D )

This particular thread shall be dedicated more to what kind of things should be included into a possible patch(s) and discussion over just how to go about it.
But, quite frankly anything associated with this topic is more than welcome...


If anyone knows of any Civ2 program MODs other than FreeCiv and C-evo by all means post those links here!
 
Originally posted by HughMungus
How do I change to Deity+5 or whatever?
I have heard about adding more lines after Deity in the @DIFFICULTY paragraph of rules.txt. But this way doesnt work on my comp. So my way is:

You start a game (preferably Civ2 FW or lower) as Deity for example, you save the start and you hexedit the savefile: you change byte 2C from 05 (Deity) to 0A (Deity+5).
To have the standard happiness, you need to edit the rules.txt too:
12 ; City size for first unhappiness at Chieftain level
24 ; Riot factor based on # cities (higher factor lessens the effect)

Deity+5 is the max.

Note: I opened this thread not just to clarify what Civ2 could use but also to provide anyone who should undertake the task of designing a patch with a better idea of what players would really like to see. Since Civ2's strong point is in scenario design (and a fast-paced vanilla game I guess), it seems logical to me that more flexibility and options in this area would be the best way to go.
The idea is to get as many people playing and MODding Civ2 as possibel while giving hard-core scenarios designers more toys to play with.
How do you want to do this without the source code?

Originally posted by yoshi
I think I will open a new thread on just that topic and include a poll in order to better gauge what the possibilities are.
There was such a thread at Apolyton already. People want the source code, but in addition you must have somebody who will release it.
 
Yes, I got that kind of feedback from the poll thread.

I bring up the topic of what Civ2 needs because eventually the source code may be released at which point these (along with ither) fixes, changes and additions will become possible. The other reason is that I'm interested to know how players see their favourite game in light of this issue.

Since Microprose is gone, might the source code not be more accessible now?

I guess I should also include the issue: what would it take to get it released and who would release it?
 
If you're interested in issues pertaining to Civ2's source code and would like to vote on whether or not it should be released go to the 'Should the Civ2 source code be released?' thread. (There you will also find links to the Apolyton forum concerning the releasing of the Ctp2 source code.)
 
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